Why is Gretzky so underrated on HF?

[Drgi]

I dont like Gretzky as a person much, but I saw recently one game of 1987 ? Finals with philadelphia, they been hooking all the time, normally only guys like Lemieux are able to score with a gay hanging on you. But Gretzky was able to score in the play offs were no fouls have been called ! Respect ! Oder think - I was reading Peter Stastny book and he stated that on the preparation for the 1984 canada cup only Gretzky and him made 100 % the physical test. Gretzky was thin but well trained a typ of player like Igor Larionov - also thin and most probably even bette trained.

 

[Regal]

A lot of similar plays get broken up before they happen these days. Defensive positioning and stickwork has evolved massively over the years, and the goaltending position itself has changed tremendously even in the 2000s, goailes these days can stop bang-bang plays they don't even know are going to happen because of their positioning, size, and equipment.

It has for years been one of my peeves about the modern game how many made plays get stopped while broken disasters are the ones that go in.

Oh for sure. And that's why there's fewer goals and no one's touching Gretzky's records. But there's still a lot of bad defense on goals and players making a team look silly. I think if you watch a lot of Gretzky plays though, it's not so much that similar plays don't happen today and result in goals, there's just fewer it's more refined. There's less space given by the defense, the shot is harder, the play moves faster, etc. But a lot of the basics are the same. People act like shots down the wing don't go in anymore, but there's lots of guys who still do it, but they usually make a cut move, change the angle and/or use a defenseman as a screen while they do. Or some of his dipsy-doodle stickhandling. Guys like Gaudreau and Kane still make defenses look ridiculous in similar ways to Gretzky, getting players to bite on fakes or moving in the wrong the direction. The better skating though just makes them look not quite as helpless and get back in the play faster. But the puck still ends up in the net.

 

[King Mapes]

Gretzky had more assists (1963) than any other NHL player had points when he retired. That should tell you everything you need to know about who the greatest NHL player so far is. He also had those 894 goals in 1487 NHL games. That is 0.60 goals per game played, plus 1.32 assists.

Bobby Orr is the greatest defenseman ever. With good knees, the Bruins win more than 2 SC with him on the team.

It's a shame both Orr and Mario didn't play nearly long enough or as many games as they could have. We missed out on 2 of the greatest.

 

[johan f]

Well, if some guy can beat 90 kids, but you can beat only 2 adult, is he better than you?

I don't get that analogy. Every era has it's own competition. Goalies were just as competitive toward skaters in the past as today. The skating and shooting were on par with the goaltending. Difference from today was the gear and tactics. Apply the 200 foot game of today to 80s hockey and you would see less puck chasing goalies back then. Their style was a result of the game. Not the other way.

 

[shtorm2005]

I don't get that analogy. Every era has it's own competition. Goalies were just as competitive toward skaters in the past as today. The skating and shooting were on par with the goaltending. Difference from today was the gear and tactics. Apply the 200 foot game of today to 80s hockey and you would see less puck chasing goalies back then. Their style was a result of the game. Not the other way.

Maybe this vid will explain my point in this analogy

 

[alko]

As i see it:

Many many people are sure, he is the greatest. Some little bunch doesnt. And exactly this little numbers of people are seen. The are posting, talking and arguing about their truth. And that seems, that there are a lot people about the same thinking.

Its always to see in every topic, not only in ice-hockey. The most visible people are they, they complaining about something. People, that are satisfied with their lives, dont have any need to say it.

 

[Habs10025]

People seem to think very highly of the stars of the 20th century, but compared to most, Gretzky doesn't seem to get a lot of respect. It seems people constantly try to downplay his numbers, as if they are meaningless because of his era, and believe he wouldn't be very good in today's game. Why is that?

In the 80's 90's fans were saying the same things that the players of that time were so much better than the players in the 60's 70's and the players from then wouldn't be able to play in the 80's 90's . Now it's the majority of players from the 80's 90's and early 00's that wouldn't be good enough to play now.'In 25 years there will be fans saying the same things about these current players.

 

[SwaggySpungo]

Because Mario was better...

Not at hockey.

 

[Spirit of 67]

I think people who weren't around when he came into the league and then throughout his career have to understand that Gretzky didn't score a ton because the era was high scoring.
The era was high scoring because of Gretzky. (and the Oilers)

 

[Holymakinaw]

well, watch a few highlights. many if not most of the goals you see would not go in against modern goalies.

LOL. Poppycock. You have zero way of knowing that for sure.........unless of course you have the ability to travel across different lines of space/time?

If some look "too easy", then I say Gretzky would simply have adjusted his shots for the modern goalies and picked different spots to score in. He had magical powers.

He's the greatest goal-scorer of all time. Fact. (So far, at least....)

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Gretzky had more assists (1963) than any other NHL player had points when he retired. That should tell you everything you need to know about who the greatest NHL player so far is. He also had those 894 goals in 1487 NHL games. That is 0.60 goals per game played, plus 1.32 assists.

Bobby Orr is the greatest defenseman ever. With good knees, the Bruins win more than 2 SC with him on the team.

Not to mention how we evaluate a player should be relative. Orr or Gretzky in this era proportionally developed as today's players are would STILL be miles ahead of every other player.

 

[Roman Yoshi]

Elias Petterson and Connor McDavid.

People focus on the new rather than the old has beens.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

you're not wrong, but that's why to a modern viewer it doesn't look that impressive. it causes you to wonder just how he would have done in the modern game with faster defensemen, tighter systems, and strong positional goalie play.

his play informed the modern game as well so it's just one of those things.

"Modern viewer" meaning a younger fan correct? Most fans look at his numbers and recognize what it means.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Excellent post. I think you covered it all. People can make their arguments for Orr, Howe, Lemieux etc, but it’s total ignorance and lack of hockey watching IQ to downplay Gretzky like many on these forums do (outside the History of Hockey subsection of course).

What's ignorant is thinking that it's downplaying Gretzky to argue for Orr, Howe and Lemieux.

I saw all these guys play and you could make an argument for any of them and your "etc." makes no sense (at least not to me) because these are the 4 best players of all time. I have Orr as the best ever but it's super close and I have no problem with people picking one of the other guys. Comparing players who played in different eras is tough and recency bias is a thing which is why most people have Howe as the 4th best ever. It's probably also a big reason why some people today can't possibly appreciate the greatness of the great one but whatever.

Lebron is way, way closer to Jordan than Crosby/Ovi are to Gretzky though.

Agreed. Lebron vs MJ is too close to call IMO.

It's a shame both Orr and Mario didn't play nearly long enough or as many games as they could have. We missed out on 2 of the greatest.

So much this. Orr having to retire was perhaps the worst thing ever to happen to the NHL and Lemieux was incredible, had he been healthier there's no telling what he may have been able to accomplish.

 

[Oddbob]

He wasn't as dominant as Mario at his best.

But that doesn't mean he's not the greatest overall. Pete Sampras at the top of his game was the most dominant tennis player I ever saw but few call him the greatest tennis payer ever.

I would still put him against any other player in history when he was in his groove. Easily.

Oh dear! Just for starters, 4 200+ pt seasons, plus another 180 pt season, while Mario hit 199 once! Mario was phenomenal no doubt, but saying he was more dominant when both were in their primes is incredibly ridiculous!

OT - Also like to point out, Gretzky with a bad back in his last season put up 62 points in 70 games, during what was among the lowest scoring seasons we have ever seen in the modern game. That era included top flight goalies, like Roy, Hasek, Belfour, Cujo and many other good goalies, so not like he was scoring on Peter Ing every night or something. When he suffered his back injury he was no longer the "dominant" Gretzky he once was, and still lead the NHL in pts in 93-94 with 130 pts. He wasn't even close to the "prime" Gretzky anymore at that point.

Also, as others have mentioned, Gretzky is unmatched in terms of hockey IQ, yes that includes McDavid, and Crosby and any other player of today, and for that reason alone, he would still be a tremendous player, even if his numbers would be a bit lower. Young Gretzky in todays game, would still lead the league in points, and not just by 5 or 6 pts, but 20+ most years. People always forget this about Gretzky, he was miles ahead of the 2nd best, all the time, including those on his team, and sometimes it was double the next best, with todays training and qaulity of coaching and equipment, he would still very much be a dominant force!

 

[MaV]

Yes, goaltending is better now, because of better technique and equipment (applies to skaters too!), but I wouldn't judge 80s goalies just based on the highlights of goals. Go to Youtube and watch some saves and the picture looks different.

 

[AD1066]

I think people who weren't around when he came into the league and then throughout his career have to understand that Gretzky didn't score a ton because the era was high scoring.
The era was high scoring because of Gretzky. (and the Oilers)

Remove Gretzky (and Lemieux) from the equation and it makes little difference. We have data from thousands of games, and tens of thousands of goals, showing that scoring was objectively higher during that period, with or without them.

Gretzky's GOAT 215-point season accounts for only 3% of goals that were scored that year (among only 21 teams).

 

[koyvoo]

Yes, scoring was high.

He was still winning scoring titles by 75+ pts and out scoring his teammates at by 100+ pts at times.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Also, as others have mentioned, Gretzky is unmatched in terms of hockey IQ, yes that includes McDavid, and Crosby and any other player of today, and for that reason alone, he would still be a tremendous player, even if his numbers would be a bit lower. Young Gretzky in todays game, would still lead the league in points, and not just by 5 or 6 pts, but 20+ most years. People always forget this about Gretzky, he was miles ahead of the 2nd best, all the time, including those on his team, and sometimes it was double the next best, with todays training and qaulity of coaching and equipment, he would still very much be a dominant force!

So true. I remember thinking at the beginning of some seasons early on in his career that this will be the year he finally comes back down to earth, it's not possible that this scrawny little kid can so many more points as anyone else. And it would always be the same thing, after a dozen games the 2nd leading scorer in the NHL would have maybe 14 points and Gretzky would have 26 or something and it kept going like this year after year. In some fantasy pools you weren't allowed to pick Gretzky because having him was just too much of an advantage, take a minute and let that sink in.

As far as Gretzky's game not being effective in today's NHL, that's a joke. Before he hit the NHL people were saying he wouldn't succeed as he was too small, too slow, too weak and whatever else, me made a mockery out of people saying those things and he'd do the same today.

What I'd really like to see though is Bobby Orr with two healthy knees and modern skates instead of the anvils he had to wear back in the day, even on one knee he was skating circles around everyone else.

 

[AvatarAang]

Because he isn't a prospect

 

[BrindamoursNose]

He's not underrated.

He's unanimously the greatest of all time. It's just not worth talking about since it's not a competition. Sure, there's a few who say Mario is better, but I don't think Mario would've stood a chance to catch Wayne's records even if he was able to play straight through his career.

 

[Oddbob]

He's not underrated.

He's unanimously the greatest of all time. It's just not worth talking about since it's not a competition. Sure, there's a few who say Mario is better, but I don't think Mario would've stood a chance to catch Wayne's records even if he was able to play straight through his career.

I think Mario would have eventually topped him in goals if healthy, but would have come nowhere near the assists.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He's not underrated.

He's unanimously the greatest of all time. It's just not worth talking about since it's not a competition. Sure, there's a few who say Mario is better, but I don't think Mario would've stood a chance to catch Wayne's records even if he was able to play straight through his career.

Nope.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Nope.

I'll re-phrase:

As far as any list to determine the greatest of all time in anything is concerned, Wayne Gretzky is as unanimous as it gets as #1 in hockey.

 

[LeafsLegendAkiBerg]

I think it's weird when people argue that if you dropped Gretzky in a game today he'd be outclassed as if Gretzky wouldn't have access to the same equipment/training that modern players have. Likewise, Crosby in the 80s wouldn't have been the same fitness freak he is today. It's impossible to say how many points Gretzky would have if he played today or how top players would look in the 80s. What we do know is that Gretzky was a very, very dominant player.