Why is Gretzky so underrated on HF?

[Gary Nylund]

I'll re-phrase:

As far as any list to determine the greatest of all time in anything is concerned, Wayne Gretzky is as unanimous as it gets as #1 in hockey.

Meaning he gets the most votes. Sure probably, recency bias is a thing.

I remember back near the end of Gretzky's career when about 50 respected hockey people were asked who was better, Gretzky or Orr. It was close but what was interesting was that even then, many of the people were so young they had never seen Orr play and most of them picked Gretzky. Out of the people who had seen them both though, most picked Orr. I'm quite sure it would be exactly the same today, unless you actually saw Orr play, you can't possibly comprehend how good he was.

 

[koyvoo]

Orr was the guy more than anyone ever who truly did look like it was an adult playing with children as far as optics go

 

[Dread Clawz]

Orr was the guy more than anyone ever who truly did look like it was an adult playing with children as far as optics go

Because of his skating. He made everyone else look like a fool. Put his legs on Gretzky and Wayne would have been scoring 300 pts. a year.

 

[ottawah]

well, watch a few highlights. many if not most of the goals you see would not go in against modern goalies.

And he did not have composite sticks which shoot the puck much harder.

He did not have access to todays training methods, diet regimes, etc.

It was also a significantly more physical game, which did affect how they play.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Most posters didn't see him play.

He's built like a nerd, and hockey fans refuse to accept that a nerd could dominate their vicious sport.

His dominance was nuanced and subtle. Not very obvious to the naked eye. People don't like/accept what they don't understand.

He played during the '80s, an era that today's fans ridicule in order to elevate their modern-day heroes.

Some just like to be contrarian so as to stand out from the crowd with their "unique" understanding.

Orr and Lemieux fans extrapolate their shortened career stats, while conveniently ignoring natural decline/Gretzky's mileage before his 30th birthday, in order to prop them up above Wayne.

Myths like Semenko being his conjoined twin and the league not allowing anyone to touch Gretzky.

His stats are video game stats, so some reject his numbers on the mere premise of their outlandishness. Dismissing something requires no mental strain.

The Tom Brady/Michael Jordan Effect: some people find dominance boring/unfair.

Take your pick.

Excellent, thorough answer.

In the T0p 100 players project (currently in progress on the HOH forum), Gretzky got a 1st place vote on 23 out of 31 ballots (with three 2nd place votes, four 3rd place votes and, surprisingly, one 7th place vote). Not unanimous of course, but I'd call that decisive.

 

[ottawah]

People seem to think very highly of the stars of the 20th century, but compared to most, Gretzky doesn't seem to get a lot of respect. It seems people constantly try to downplay his numbers, as if they are meaningless because of his era, and believe he wouldn't be very good in today's game. Why is that?

Wilt Chamberlain says Hi ....

People just think that they must be a good player in a crappy league. You get to the point (which is why I brought up Chamberlain) that the numbers appear so gaudy that there is simply no possible way they could be real. People assume it has to be competition, because someone cannot possibly be that good.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Because of his skating. He made everyone else look like a fool. Put his legs on Gretzky and Wayne would have been scoring 300 pts. a year.

While it's true that Orr was probably the best skater the game has ever seen, you're kind of making sound as if that's all he was - a great skater. Orr was a complete hockey player who did absolutely everything well. He also didn't need to be protected the way Gretzky did as he could fight with the best of them.

 

[Dread Clawz]

While it's true that Orr was probably the best skater the game has ever seen, you're kind of making sound as if that's all he was - a great skater. Orr was a complete hockey player who did absolutely everything well. He also didn't need to be protected the way Gretzky did as he could fight with the best of them.

No, not at all. I believe Orr is the best all around player of all time.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Meaning he gets the most votes. Sure probably, recency bias is a thing.

I remember back near the end of Gretzky's career when about 50 respected hockey people were asked who was better, Gretzky or Orr. It was close but what was interesting was that even then, many of the people were so young they had never seen Orr play and most of them picked Gretzky. Out of the people who had seen them both though, most picked Orr. I'm quite sure it would be exactly the same today, unless you actually saw Orr play, you can't possibly comprehend how good he was.

No, I'm saying he'd get the highest proportion of votes relative to other players in the 4 major NA sports.

For NFL, Brady and Montana alone will split greatly (add in Jim Brown to funnel away more votes)
For NBA, LeBron and Jordan split heavily.
For MLB, it's all over the map between Ruth, Griffey, Aaron, Dimaggio, Gherig, Pujols, Ryan, etc.
For NHL, it's likely Gretzky easily with an older contingency for Orr and a small, mighty group for Mario.

And mind you: I fully understand the gravity of Orr. Dude did whatever he wanted on the ice -- problem is, the game is about putting points on the board in the end and Gretzky did that much better than anyone else and he did it over an extremely long time. Orr conked out early and that'll always go against him in this conversation.

 

[BLNY]

well, watch a few highlights. many if not most of the goals you see would not go in against modern goalies.

"Modern gear". Put the gear of the 80s on today's goalies and just as many goals go in.

 

[Eisen]

People seem to think very highly of the stars of the 20th century, but compared to most, Gretzky doesn't seem to get a lot of respect. It seems people constantly try to downplay his numbers, as if they are meaningless because of his era, and believe he wouldn't be very good in today's game. Why is that?

Because many of those sazing that haven't been around to see him. Just like everything, he will be gone from the collective consciousness sooner or later. His numbers are still around but he'll probably be treated like Joe Malone.

 

[SotasicA]

well, watch a few highlights. many if not most of the goals you see would not go in against modern goalies.

With modern equipment and rules, he'd score more.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No, I'm saying he'd get the highest proportion of votes relative to other players in the 4 major NA sports.

For NFL, Brady and Montana alone will split greatly (add in Jim Brown to funnel away more votes)
For NBA, LeBron and Jordan split heavily.
For MLB, it's all over the map between Ruth, Griffey, Aaron, Dimaggio, Gherig, Pujols, Ryan, etc.
For NHL, it's likely Gretzky easily with an older contingency for Orr and a small, mighty group for Mario.

And mind you: I fully understand the gravity of Orr. Dude did whatever he wanted on the ice -- problem is, the game is about putting points on the board in the end and Gretzky did that much better than anyone else and he did it over an extremely long time. Orr conked out early and that'll always go against him in this conversation.

Ah, OK then. Not sure if that's true or not but whatever, if it's true it's due to recency bias IMO.

Anyhow, the game is about a lot more than putting points on the board, unless you mean team points and that can't be what you meant since you said Gretzky was the best at it and Gretzky is not a team.

People do get bamboozled by points though and that's probably why Howe doesn't get his due in these arguments but as far as points go, consider this - Howe finished top 5 in scoring for 20 years straight and did this in era where hockey was a much rougher game than it was when Gretzky played. That record may be less likely to be broken than anything Gretzky ever did, it's really hard to fathom. The guy is still 4th all-time in points and 2nd in goals which again, considering the era he played in is just freaky.

You're right that Orr's career got cut short so that will count against him but by the same token, Howe should get extra credit then. In a vote for the greatest ever, there are 4 players who deserve to get a ton of votes IMO, I'm not sure if that can be said for the NBA or the NFL.

 

[tom99]

People seem to think very highly of the stars of the 20th century, but compared to most, Gretzky doesn't seem to get a lot of respect. It seems people constantly try to downplay his numbers, as if they are meaningless because of his era, and believe he wouldn't be very good in today's game. Why is that?

he was soft, and goalies were garbage, they just stood there

 

[NoMessi]

Just because I think Lemieux is the best player ever doesnt mean I think less of Gretzky. They are lightyears ahead of the second tier during my lifetime which includes Jagr, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin and probably Mcdavid even though its early.

Lemieux and Gretzky are as close as Pele and Maradona.

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

well, watch a few highlights. many if not most of the goals you see would not go in against modern goalies.

why does it matter ? he was DOMINATING the NHL at his time, way more than Mcdavid today or Crosby in the current NHL.

 

[Kranix]

You want to be able to compare different eras? Strap skates on Wayne and put him on the ice today, see how he does. It happened in the alumni game and he was brutal. End of discussion.

 

[Pilky01]

Because the most active posters are 14 year olds.

 

[Video Nasty]

What's ignorant is thinking that it's downplaying Gretzky to argue for Orr, Howe and Lemieux.

I saw all these guys play and you could make an argument for any of them and your "etc." makes no sense (at least not to me) because these are the 4 best players of all time

Yeah you entirely misread my post and in usual hfboards fashion, the context leading up to my posting was completely ignored.

 

[Gary Nylund]

More cool facts about the guy they called Mr. Hockey:

19 times top 10 in Hart Trophy voting
15 times top 5 in Hart Trophy voting

Let that sink in.

He retired because of wrist issues, then had surgery to enable him to return to hockey after a two year hiatus, a return motivated by the desire to play with his sons. He played with his sons for 6 years in the WHA, then when the WHA merged with the NHL he played one last NHL season putting up 41 points in 80 games at age 51 before retiring. That's 8 seasons out of the NHL when he could have still played. If you conservatively give him the same point totals for those 8 years that he had at age 51, he'd still be the all-time leader in goals with over 900.

My vote for best ever goes to Orr but I can't quibble with people picking Gretzky, Howe or Lemieux. I just feel privileged to have seen them all play.

 

[Kranix]

I wish instead of retiring in '99, Wayne started doing steroids and had a Barry Bonds resurgence, not allowing Ovy, or Sid to have their time at the top.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I'm not sure if he is underrated here but if he is then the answer for why he is underrated is undoubtedly:

Because this board is infested with the small, fragile egos of people who suck at analyzing hockey but try desperately to prove how hockey smart they are anyway...mostly by offering contrarian, half baked hot takes or by copying what they heard someone put in a scouting report

 

[Gary Nylund]

Just because I think Lemieux is the best player ever doesnt mean I think less of Gretzky. They are lightyears ahead of the second tier during my lifetime which includes Jagr, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin and probably Mcdavid even though its early.

Lemieux and Gretzky are as close as Pele and Maradona.

The sad state of the Oilers with McDavid is perhaps the worst thing to happen to the NHL since Orr retired. I predicted when he was drafted that by the time he's done, McDavid may well be considered the 5th best player of all-time but now ... I remember when Gretzky called NJ a mickey mouse franchise, I can't help but wonder what he thinks of the Oilers today.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Ignorance mostly. Maybe combined with youthful contrarianism.

 

[SlickShot]

Yea most people don't know what they are talking about. Gretzky is the best player all time and I think he would be even better in today's NHL.