Why is Gretzky so underrated on HF?

[johan f]

I repeat what I said before: To downplay Gretzky's accomplishment by stating goalies were bad is not right to do. Then it is also wrong to single out goalies for their style. Today there is much more corporation between skaters and goalies. the defense is more tight which helps goalies today to play a positional game. In the past goalies had to second guess a lot, chase the puck since defense was not tight.

Then as stated before, not every players scored in tons back then. it was not like goalies threw the pucks in own net. Gretzky was one of a kind. simple as that.

 

[Albatros]

Yes, goaltending is better now, because of better technique and equipment (applies to skaters too!), but I wouldn't judge 80s goalies just based on the highlights of goals. Go to Youtube and watch some saves and the picture looks different.

In the 1980s you got a lot of dramatic saves mostly because the goalies often played far away from the net and could not recover quickly, thus having to go for desperation attempts way more frequently. Still these saves signal a weakness, not a strength, as the success rate of such attempts was not particularly high.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

People seem to think very highly of the stars of the 20th century, but compared to most, Gretzky doesn't seem to get a lot of respect. It seems people constantly try to downplay his numbers, as if they are meaningless because of his era, and believe he wouldn't be very good in today's game. Why is that?

A big knock on Gretzky is that he never won a cup without the great Oilers teams, while the Oilers won a 5th cup without him and Messier won a 6th with the Rangers.

I personally am probably guilty of underrating him because I remember him more toward the end of his career. I didn't watch all that much of Gretzky, and I was too young to remember him in his best years, so I am not the best judge.

He hasn't been so likeable in his post-hockey career, so maybe that factors in as well?

 

[Macch]

Most of the keyboard warriors here weren't old enough to watch him play

 

[Gary Nylund]

A big knock on Gretzky is that he never won a cup without the great Oilers teams, while the Oilers won a 5th cup without him and Messier won a 6th with the Rangers.

I personally am probably guilty of underrating him because I remember him more toward the end of his career. I didn't watch all that much of Gretzky, and I was too young to remember him in his best years, so I am not the best judge.

He hasn't been so likeable in his post-hockey career, so maybe that factors in as well?

I'd be surprised if anyone who watched Gretzky throughout his entire career would downgrade him for having a great team around him. He was just so much better than everyone else, including his teammates. But if you missed him in his prime then yeah, I could see it.

 

[Fantomas]

Mario isn't
168 points in 77 - 1987/88 - 2.18 ppg
161 points in 70 - 1995/96 2.3ppg
76 points in 43 - 2000/01 1.77ppg

Yeah, those are stats. Good work!

 

[Fantomas]

Valid argument: Gretzky played in a high scoring era and therefore his raw stats can make him seem better than he is, especially if we do not apply any context whatsoever in terms of how we understand his stats. Nevertheless his accomplishments are immense by any measure.

Invalid argument: Gretzky is overrated because he scored on bad goalies (or something)

 

[blood gin]

well, watch a few highlights. many if not most of the goals you see would not go in against modern goalies.

But if Gretzky was coming up in this era, with these training methods, this equipment, where sports medicine where it is right now, he'd dominate the game as well. Someone of Gretzky's hockey IQ love of the game and dedication and commitment has no chance of failing.

Those were the best goalies in the world at the time.

 

[saluki]

Oh dear! Just for starters, 4 200+ pt seasons, plus another 180 pt season, while Mario hit 199 once! Mario was phenomenal no doubt, but saying he was more dominant when both were in their primes is incredibly ridiculous!

OT - Also like to point out, Gretzky with a bad back in his last season put up 62 points in 70 games, during what was among the lowest scoring seasons we have ever seen in the modern game. That era included top flight goalies, like Roy, Hasek, Belfour, Cujo and many other good goalies, so not like he was scoring on Peter Ing every night or something. When he suffered his back injury he was no longer the "dominant" Gretzky he once was, and still lead the NHL in pts in 93-94 with 130 pts. He wasn't even close to the "prime" Gretzky anymore at that point.

Also, as others have mentioned, Gretzky is unmatched in terms of hockey IQ, yes that includes McDavid, and Crosby and any other player of today, and for that reason alone, he would still be a tremendous player, even if his numbers would be a bit lower. Young Gretzky in todays game, would still lead the league in points, and not just by 5 or 6 pts, but 20+ most years. People always forget this about Gretzky, he was miles ahead of the 2nd best, all the time, including those on his team, and sometimes it was double the next best, with todays training and qaulity of coaching and equipment, he would still very much be a dominant force!

Oh Lord, do I really have to spell out what I meant?

I didn't mean dominant in terms of points during a time when guys were routinely scoring on unscreened slappers from the blue line. I meant in terms of what Mario could do in the ice physically.

People on this site keep repeating that "youngsters never saw Gretzky play".

I'm really starting to think that no one saw Mario play either.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Gretzky is underrated, it is mostly by the people who ridiculously think Lemieux is on his level.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Just because I think Lemieux is the best player ever doesnt mean I think less of Gretzky.

Yes, it absolutely does.

 

[Dolemite]

Because he drove the Coyotes into the ground as head of hockey operations?

 

[Brunomics]

Jonesy, Reilly: Greatest all round player in the history of the show, Mr. Hockey.
Shoresy: Gretz is the best player in the history of the show. Give your balls a tug.
Reilly: Gretz is the best.
Jonesy: We didn't mean any disrespect to 99.
Reilly: We said Gordie Howe was the best all-round player.
Shoresy: Gretz holds or shares 61 records in the show, you piece of shit. Don't nickel and dime the Great One.
Jonesy: But Mr. Hockey...
Shoresy: Suck my Mr. Cocky, you f***ing loser.

 

[nbwingsfan]

People seem to think very highly of the stars of the 20th century, but compared to most, Gretzky doesn't seem to get a lot of respect. It seems people constantly try to downplay his numbers, as if they are meaningless because of his era, and believe he wouldn't be very good in today's game. Why is that?

I’d say the vast majority around here are under the age of 25 and therefore likely have never even seen video of him other than the occasional YouTube clip.

Anyone with even a slight understanding of hockey should know he’s the greatest player to have ever played

 

[Albatros]

Those were the best goalies in the world at the time.

Best goalies in Canada. Colorado's Chico Resch (USA) was the only non-Canadian starter in the league.

 

[BigEezyE22]

The only thing that Lemieux was definitively better are what if scenarios .

And playoff goals per game.

 

[Chimpradamus]

I don't think players from different eras should even be compared. It's barely the same sport in many cases, for different reasons. It's next to impossible.

 

[Jerzey Devil]

Did the internet even exist when he retired? I think a large part of the hf community is just fairly young.

 

[Kaapo Cabana]

because its cool to have hot takes that go against widely held beliefs, regardless of how ridiculous those takes are

 

[Randyne]

I think people who weren't around when he came into the league and then throughout his career have to understand that Gretzky didn't score a ton because the era was high scoring.
The era was high scoring because of Gretzky. (and the Oilers)

in 1979-1987 era:
NHL GF 57819 in 15120 GP.
It's 3.82 goals per game, even if EDM scored zero goals in 9 years NHL GPG would drop to 3.41. And if EDM was as bad as NYI then NHL GPG would be 3.79.
Both values are much higher than post 2005 era.

 

[stokes84]

If you ever see a list where Gretzky is not the no. 1 greatest player of all time, it’s a hot take by someone seeking attention. It’s really that simple.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If Gretzky is underrated, it is mostly by the people who ridiculously think Lemieux is on his level.

Lemieux was definitely on the same tier as Gretzky and many people think he was the best player ever. What's ridiculous is thinking that nobody has a case for challenging the great Gretzky.

I’d say the vast majority around here are under the age of 25 and therefore likely have never even seen video of him other than the occasional YouTube clip.

Anyone with even a slight understanding of hockey should know he’s the greatest player to have ever played

I always get a chuckle when people say things like this and if you think there's no argument to be made for anyone else, then it's you who's understanding of hockey is severely lacking.

 

[psycat]

Nope.

But he really is, and it's not even close(I don't like the term but it really applies here). Sure if you want to argue Orr/Lemieux peaked higher or whatever do it, I wouldn't agree but atleast it's not lunatic to think, but Gretzky is simply the greatest hockey player ever. Most known, all the records, most trophies and so on.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lemieux was definitely on the same tier as Gretzky and many people think he was the best player ever. What's ridiculous is thinking that nobody has a case for challenging the great Gretzky.

Nobody has a case for challenging Gretzky.

Lemieux achieved Gretzky's level twice in his career. Gretzky held that same level for 5-8 seasons depending on how you look at it, and Gretzky's post-peak career is also significantly better than Lemieux's.

Better peak, better prime, better longevity, I really don't know what the real world case is for Lemieux.

Interesting, I am starting to see what the OP was talking about.

 

[Gary Nylund]

But he really is, and it's not even close(I don't like the term but it really applies here). Sure if you want to argue Orr/Lemieux peaked higher or whatever do it, I wouldn't agree but atleast it's not lunatic to think, but Gretzky is simply the greatest hockey player ever. Most known, all the records, most trophies and so on.

He may well be the most known, you got me there.

Nobody has a case for challenging Gretzky.

Lemieux achieved Gretzky's level twice in his career. Gretzky held that same level for 5-8 seasons depending on how you look at it, and Gretzky's post-peak career is also significantly better than Lemieux's.

Better peak, better prime, better longevity, I really don't know what the real world case is for Lemieux.

Interesting, I am starting to see what the OP was talking about.

Gretzky's career PPG is 1.92, Lemieux's at 1.88. I dare say that the powerhouse team Gretzky had around him had something to do with this small margin in Gretzky's favour. You reverse the teams they played with and I'm confident that Lemieux would be leading in this category. Say Gretzky was the better player, that's fine, hell I agree with you but I have no idea how anyone can say there's not even a debate to be had here.