Why don't we ever see ivy league educated GMs?

SnowblindNYR

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GM is in large part a business job. Most top organizations in the world try to fill their ranks with candidates from top schools. I bet if you look business roles at the top leagues such the NHL a lot of them are filled with people from top universities. However, that's not the case with GMs. I know there's a scouting and actual sports component to it and the NHL seems like a good ole boy's club, but you'd think more smart people would be hired regardless of if they played or scouted hockey before. Salary cap management for example is not so different from a corporate finance role that attracts people from top universities for top organizations.
 

kaiser matias

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It's likely a numbers game:

There are now 32 GM positions, with turnover of about 2-3 per year. Most of them are former players, and with the exception of Kekalainen they have all been North American. Most North Americans played junior hockey in the CHL. The number of NCAA players is increasing, but you have probably about a 30 year delay before that is reflected there. And then consider that of the 8 Ivy League schools, only 6 have Division I teams (Penn plays in Division II, and Columbia doesn't have a varsity team). Then factor in that few of the Ivy League players make the NHL, and it doesn't seem that unusual anymore.
 

PCSPounder

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Does hockey scouting have anything like most of the world's soccer has with OptaJack and the like?

People do interesting things with passing analysis and "heat maps" these days. And I do recall an Ivy Leaguer kind of centered in Moneyball.

Now I don't know the state of hockey scouting (and really don't have the time to dive into it), but it seems like that's where this thread would point, no?

One other thing I can tell you soccer-wise. Many foreign coaches who have passed through MLS tend to miss the boat because they don't know North America as a scouting territory and the system of MLS doesn't let you just double the payroll and go shopping everywhere. Those who remain either spent time here in the first place or latched straight on to someone who knows the territory.
 

Barclay Donaldson

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It's likely a numbers game:

There are now 32 GM positions, with turnover of about 2-3 per year. Most of them are former players, and with the exception of Kekalainen they have all been North American. Most North Americans played junior hockey in the CHL. The number of NCAA players is increasing, but you have probably about a 30 year delay before that is reflected there. And then consider that of the 8 Ivy League schools, only 6 have Division I teams (Penn plays in Division II, and Columbia doesn't have a varsity team). Then factor in that few of the Ivy League players make the NHL, and it doesn't seem that unusual anymore.

As a whole agree with everything in here except Penn doesn't have a Division II team, they have a club team just like Columbia. The Penn club team competes in the ACHA Men's Division II. It's actually not possibly for NCAA D1 institutions to have NCAA D2 hockey and I'm fairly certain athletics in general.
 

Primary Assist

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As a whole agree with everything in here except Penn doesn't have a Division II team, they have a club team just like Columbia. The Penn club team competes in the ACHA Men's Division II. It's actually not possibly for NCAA D1 institutions to have NCAA D2 hockey and I'm fairly certain athletics in general.

There was a weird quirk back in the 70s I believe, where NCAA Division 2 or 3 schools could elect to make one sport for each gender Division 1. It's why schools like Rensselaer Polytechnic have D3 Sports but a D1 hockey team.
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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There was a weird quirk back in the 70s I believe, where NCAA Division 2 or 3 schools could elect to make one sport for each gender Division 1. It's why schools like Rensselaer Polytechnic have D3 Sports but a D1 hockey team.

They used to be able to play up, but you could never play down. UPenn couldn't be all D1 athletics with D2 hockey. Now you can't play up if you're D2/D3 programs with D1 hockey unless you're grandfathered in. A lot of schools are like this: Clarkson, RPI as you mentioned, Bentley, AIC, St. Cloud State, Mercyhurst, Minnesota-Duluth, Colorado College, RIT, Bemidji State, Ferris State, LSSU, MTU, MSU, and NMU are all D2 programs with D1 hockey.
 

SnowblindNYR

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It's likely a numbers game:

There are now 32 GM positions, with turnover of about 2-3 per year. Most of them are former players, and with the exception of Kekalainen they have all been North American. Most North Americans played junior hockey in the CHL. The number of NCAA players is increasing, but you have probably about a 30 year delay before that is reflected there. And then consider that of the 8 Ivy League schools, only 6 have Division I teams (Penn plays in Division II, and Columbia doesn't have a varsity team). Then factor in that few of the Ivy League players make the NHL, and it doesn't seem that unusual anymore.

I guess a follow up question, should former players be GMs? Somewhat of a different skillset. On the other hand, I've been watching hockey for over 20 years and scouting is not my strong suit (to put it mildly). But I can do most business jobs well. So maybe if they were to choose a former player who knows hockey over possibly a smarter Harvard Business School grad that would be able to build a better financial model but doesn't understand hockey on the same level, they'd go with the player.
 

kaiser matias

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As a whole agree with everything in here except Penn doesn't have a Division II team, they have a club team just like Columbia. The Penn club team competes in the ACHA Men's Division II. It's actually not possibly for NCAA D1 institutions to have NCAA D2 hockey and I'm fairly certain athletics in general.

Thanks, I was trying to figure it out via Wikipedia, but it wasn't too clear for me.
 
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kaiser matias

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I guess a follow up question, should former players be GMs? Somewhat of a different skillset. On the other hand, I've been watching hockey for over 20 years and scouting is not my strong suit (to put it mildly). But I can do most business jobs well. So maybe if they were to choose a former player who knows hockey over possibly a smarter Harvard Business School grad that would be able to build a better financial model but doesn't understand hockey on the same level, they'd go with the player.

Yeah that's a separate discussion, and honestly I don't think former players make the best executives. Aside from the connections developed during their playing career (which I'll admit is a big thing), they are really not the best choices for that type of role.
 

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And while John Chayka ended up with some warts, he did receive his MBA from the #1 (as of 2020) MBA program in Canada.
 

Hockeyholic

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It's pretty embarassing when you see how bad NHL GM's are compared to their counter parts in other sports. I think alot of it is because it's an old boys club made up of former players. Which is more important than formal education.
 
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The Macho King

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I'm less interested in the Ivy League issue - that shit is branding. You're never going to convince me a Dartmouth grad is somehow more impressive than a UMich or UVA grad - that person just decided he wanted to pay more to lump themselves in with Harvard/Yale/Princeton.

But I'm more interested in why so many of them come from an NHL background. I don't know - Tampa is having a ton of success hiring a guy who never played any major hockey as a head coach and as a GM. I guess it's more defensible to hire the Chris Drury's or whatever and sell that to the fanbase than go really off the board if it doesn't work out, but I think there's a huge market inefficiency here and the smart teams are going to find a way to exploit it.
 

JMCx4

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Ivy League grads are smart enough to know that there's more money to be made in executive management positions outside of North American sports.
 
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TheGreenTBer

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I'm less interested in the Ivy League issue - that shit is branding.

As an Ivy League grad, here's my perspective: part of it is marketing/branding and part of it is not. However, that effect is very real and very relevant so it shouldn't be discounted. I definitely agree with your general point that it's what someone does with their degree that matters, not where they received it, but I can tell you from personal experience that my diploma alone has opened doors and raised eyebrows for me that my GPA never, ever could have. In general, it's the graduate/professional programs that really make the Ivies the Ivies. From an endowment and research perspective, their records speak for themselves.

I'm proud of the fact that I got into and graduated from one of the most difficult universities in the world. Was it worth it? Other than from a personal relationship standpoint, absolutely not. I nearly died there multiple times and my current career is different from what I majored in back in college. My wife and I came from the same school, but you can bet your ass that my kid isn't following suit. No way is my kid going to be sent into that meat grinder.

You're never going to convince me a Dartmouth grad is somehow more impressive than a UMich or UVA grad - that person just decided he wanted to pay more to lump themselves in with Harvard/Yale/Princeton.

For one, for out-of-state students there is likely not a huge difference in cost between UMich, UVA and the Ivies; private school in America is a rip-off nationwide. For two, it's an apples-to-oranges comparison because (and I generally don't mean this to be insulting) thousands of students currently attending either of those universities unfortunately would have no chance to get into Harvard, Yale or Princeton in the first place whether deserved or not.
 

The Macho King

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As an Ivy League grad, here's my perspective: part of it is marketing/branding and part of it is not. However, that effect is very real and very relevant so it shouldn't be discounted. I definitely agree with your general point that it's what someone does with their degree that matters, not where they received it, but I can tell you from personal experience that my diploma alone has opened doors and raised eyebrows for me that my GPA never, ever could have. In general, it's the graduate/professional programs that really make the Ivies the Ivies. From an endowment and research perspective, their records speak for themselves.

I'm proud of the fact that I got into and graduated from one of the most difficult universities in the world. Was it worth it? Other than from a personal relationship standpoint, absolutely not. I nearly died there multiple times and my current career is different from what I majored in back in college. My wife and I came from the same school, but you can bet your ass that my kid isn't following suit. No way is my kid going to be sent into that meat grinder.



For one, for out-of-state students there is likely not a huge difference in cost between UMich, UVA and the Ivies; private school in America is a rip-off nationwide. For two, it's an apples-to-oranges comparison because (and I generally don't mean this to be insulting) thousands of students currently attending either of those universities unfortunately would have no chance to get into Harvard, Yale or Princeton in the first place whether deserved or not.
I don't want to get too sidetracked - I went to one of the non-Ivies I mentioned for law school (and frankly chose it over numerous "Ivies", but I was waitlisted at H and Y), but law school is a different bag with the US News rankings being generally accepted across the profession as a proxy for "eliteness". But HYP are elite because they're elite, not because they hobnob with Brown and Dartmouth - that's the overall point I was making, but it was also me just being a snarky dick about it. I think when people say "Ivy" those are the schools they're generally referring to, and maybe Penn if we're taking a more business-oriented discussion.

The overall point - that teams seem to lean heavily on bringing in former players over educated non-players - is absolutely a discussion to have. Obviously there are some remarkable successes - Yzerman and Sakic are widely considered two of the best GMs in the game right now. But there are more misses than I can even count. But the NHL in general is a league where everyone's job is to keep their job, so going outside of the box is generally a path few are willing to take.
 
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TheGreenTBer

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I don't want to get too sidetracked - I went to one of the non-Ivies I mentioned for law school (and frankly chose it over numerous "Ivies", but I was waitlisted at H and Y), but law school is a different bag with the US News rankings being generally accepted across the profession as a proxy for "eliteness". But HYP are elite because they're elite, not because they hobnob with Brown and Dartmouth - that's the overall point I was making, but it was also me just being a snarky dick about it. I think when people say "Ivy" those are the schools they're generally referring to, and maybe Penn if we're taking a more business-oriented discussion.

The overall point - that teams seem to lean heavily on bringing in former players over educated non-players - is absolutely a discussion to have. Obviously there are some remarkable successes - Yzerman and Sakic are widely considered two of the best GMs in the game right now. But there are more misses than I can even count. But the NHL in general is a league where everyone's job is to keep their job, so going outside of the box is generally a path few are willing to take.

I don't think you were being a snarky dick at all tbh, but that may be because I tend to be one myself? Trust me, if I hadn't have met my wife in an Ivy League school it not only would have been a waste of time and money, I may not even be here today.

To be a good GM, you have to not only have good business sense and supreme confidence, but also an ability to read people and navigate situations that are hard to emulate in another setting. You represent your organization at a very high level, so your PR skills also need to be at the very least appropriate for the job. Neither being a former player nor an Ivy League degree alone should qualify you for the role, but inexperience in itself doesn't guarantee failure as Yzerman and Sakic have shown.
 

golfortennis

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Yeah that's a separate discussion, and honestly I don't think former players make the best executives. Aside from the connections developed during their playing career (which I'll admit is a big thing), they are really not the best choices for that type of role.

It's a club. Once you are in, you are in. I have a nephew who just got drafted by mlb. Even if he doesn't pan out as a player, he will have opportunities to coach if we wishes to. Myself, on the other hand, could be the smartest pitching or hitting coach ever seen, but because I didn't play any type of level of note, I may get one chance to show my stuff, whereas my nephew will get many opportunities to show he can't do the job. Hockey is the same way. Maybe even more so.

(Note, I am not the smartest of anything, and I have no idea if my nephew will be a good coach or not, just illustrating how it is very much a club, and how it works.)
 

kaiser matias

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It's a club. Once you are in, you are in. I have a nephew who just got drafted by mlb. Even if he doesn't pan out as a player, he will have opportunities to coach if we wishes to. Myself, on the other hand, could be the smartest pitching or hitting coach ever seen, but because I didn't play any type of level of note, I may get one chance to show my stuff, whereas my nephew will get many opportunities to show he can't do the job. Hockey is the same way. Maybe even more so.

(Note, I am not the smartest of anything, and I have no idea if my nephew will be a good coach or not, just illustrating how it is very much a club, and how it works.)

Totally, and it's not exclusive to sports. Any job is more about connections than experience.
 

golfortennis

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Totally, and it's not exclusive to sports. Any job is more about connections than experience.

To a degree I agree, but there is a much better chance of someone who has a new way of doing something getting in the business world. There are people who will bring in from the outside.

The sports world is completely insular.
 
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