Why does Kessel have the same rating as Malkin??

[The_Eck]

I did very much. I had the great fortune of a having a best friend who loved the Pens. Its not a bad thing that he wanted to go out and score. Its what he does. I do not want my best defense defensemen on the PP and my best offensive defensemen on the PK. If they are the same person than thats fine. If Jagr were on my team i would want him to go out and score, not play a stellar two way game.

You failed to see my point. Jagr was as much as a playmaker as he was a goal scorer.

 

[MN_Gopher]

You failed to see my point. Jagr was as much as a playmaker as he was a goal scorer.

Playmaking to me is still in the category of scoring.

 

[espo*]

Ok. I can speak well, But i have the darnest time getting my own idea across in a manner that everyone can understand. So i will give it an honest try here.

In the NHL now. Just going off the top of my head. You have had scoring leaders such as, Thornton, Iginla, St Louis, Forsberg and more. In years 2009-14. It may read Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kessel. And that would not blow me away. Saying he has more offensive potential. Does not mean i am saying that he will out score him every year. I gues in retrospect i should have said equal potential. As it will be hard for anyone to go above and behind Crosby in anything where it is reconized as unnanamous.

What do i see. I have seen Kessel play many times. His shot is lightining quick. Not accurate right now or really not last year. He was money for the u18 team. Can get it off from many angles and with some seriuos mustard. Reminds of Gaborik as an 18 year old. His one timer is just as fast and as hard. Probally where many see the Brett Hull comparison. His ability to pass the puck is one part that is very underated. He has dropped some serious dimes. And few were converted. Potulny was not only able to get passes in prime scoring chances he was getting them in time to still have the goalie going from right to left. Kessel has the vision and patience to wait for rushing d men. Who last year for the gophers benefiited from very nice passes were all they had to do was keep their stick on the ice and Kessel banked it in off of their stick. He has the speed to get into odd man rushes and can keep up with anyone in the game. In the new NHL there were a lot more penalties and lots of open ice. Granted i am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he will continue to improve. I have seen guys like Vanek and Heatley come through the WCHA. From what i have seen. In pure offensive ability i think Kessel is better than both of those guys. Heatley just put up 100 points. A 45 goal 75 assist year would not surprise me at all out of Kessel. And on a great year. Those numbers will go up. If you look at the areas that Kessel can improve. Knowledge and strength. He is almost doing what he is doing on pure natural ability.

I see Kessel as more of a Jagr type. Or what i think of Jagr. I score to help my team. I see Crosby once he matures too. As more of an Yzerman type. And sees the big picture. What can i do to help my team win. Yzerman, Modano, Elias, Fedorov have all the ability to lead the league in points. But they never did. Yet all have lifted the cup. And without Lemieux i do not think Jagr ever would have.

Thas what i see as the difference. I do know guys in all sports. Jeff George, Todd Van Poppel, Brian Taylor, Alexander Daigle, Ryan Leaf all had potential. At the same time guys like Joe Thornton a guy who managed 7 points in his first NHL season. Or a guy like Joe Mauer. Took him 2 years to make the Twins. Now he is hitting a legit .380 When clearly at the time Prior was better. Potenial in their cases paid off in the long run. Or even the potential of a guy like Terry Bradshaw. He was godawful as a rookie. Then later he wins super bowls.

Hmmm.

Fair enough.

We'll all watch and see in the years ahead. It's going to be interesting.

 

[Crosbyfan]

I guess i am at a loss. I could swear i never said Kessel is the same size as Jagr, has the moves of Jagr, is a Jagr clone. I think Jagr's goal is to out and score. By scoring he will help his team win. I think Kessel feels the same way. Thats the only comparision i made.

I think you have made a pretty good shot at explaining yourself. Maybe their is more to Kessel than most see, and most of us haven't seen him play as often as you have. Personnally I think the gap between Sid (or Malkin) and Phil will widen, not close, but that is just my opinion and even then it leaves lots of room for Phil to be a pretty solid NHL player. And of course I could be wrong.

 

[The_Eck]

Playmaking to me is still in the category of scoring.

And you really believe Kessel has the vision of a playmaker as well? He's more of a pavel bure type of player.

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

I guess i am at a loss. I could swear i never said Kessel is the same size as Jagr, has the moves of Jagr, is a Jagr clone. I think Jagr's goal is to out and score. By scoring he will help his team win. I think Kessel feels the same way. Thats the only comparision i made.

Ummm, no...

Kessel does not have nearly the moves Jagr does, Kessel has one move.

Furthermore, we all understand you. You, for some insane, believe that Kessel has one day the potential down the road to be as good as Crosby offensively.

We all think you are incredibly wrong.

I have as much potential to be better than Kessel, as Kessel does to be better than Crosby offensively...

 

[Gophers]

And you really believe Kessel has the vision of a playmaker as well? He's more of a pavel bure type of player.

Kessel was dishing out assists left and right towards the end of the year...a very good playmaker. He is not as one-dimensional as people think.
He does have all the tools to become an elite goal scorer in the NHL. He needs to become a little more disciplined and by then he is going to make a few teams sorry they passed him up.

 

[turnbuckle*]

In 98 if i had said Thorton will outscore Jagr. I bet i would have gotting something like. If Jagr dies. Or maybe when Jagr retires. But it happened.

Huh? Not all of us are quick to jump to conclusions. Thornton was the first pick in 1997 and very much heralded; there were many that figured he would one day score at a level that Jagr would be scoring at even after his low-scoring rookie season - people didn't panic, they realized he was just 18 and full of potential. He was very much like Jordan Staal, big and skilled, but still maturing and only scraping the surface of his offensive potential. One of the reasons Staal was picked ahead of Kessel, who didn't improve as much as Staal did in the past 12 months.

Thornton only scored a handful of points as a rookie, yet he developed - Crosby scored 100 points as an 18-year-old - he's still only 18 years old, and has only scratched the surface when it comes to his offensive capabilities. Wait until he's playing with Malkin and Staal in a couple of years on the PP. No one drafted in the past 20 seasons, including Kessel, has Crosby's offensive potential.

Methinks you are a touch biased when it comes to the impact of your Gophers and the NCAA in general - there has rarely ever been a superstar talent come out of the NCAA, and when I say superstar, I'm talking impact franchise players. Ken Dryden would be about it; Kariya and a couple of others are perhaps debateable...but that's about it.

Dryden set records in NCAA that remain today, and Kariya was absolutely outstanding in his freshman season, notching 100 points in 39 games. Kessel wasn't nearly as impactful as Kariya was in his rookie season, yet you are contending that he has more offensive potential than an 18-year-old who just outscored Kariya in his NHL prime.

I see Kessel as a Kariya type potential actually, and there's nothing wrong with that. Not overly imposing size wise or physically, superb speed and great playmaking ability, excellent shot, not known for defensive tenacity....they have many similarities.

Hey I used to think every standout Ottawa 67s player should be an NHLer - I remember thinking Yvan Joly would be a decent NHLer because he was super fast, could pass and had a great shot; he barely got a sniff because of his size, yet he was one of the most dynamic junior players of his era. It's a big world out there, and there are lots of outstanding players in the big league, and some outstanding talent coming up.

Kessel may not ultimately outpoint Staal, Brule, Radulov, Tavares, Esposito, or Couture (just to name some CHL talent)...let alone Malkin or Ovechkin. Ovechkin will eat that kid for breaky.

 

[Randall Graves*]

Do you realize Heatley didn't lead his team in scoring his freshman year. So Reinprect is clearly better than Heatley becasue he out scored him right? The kid is 18. Who cares what he did in one tourney. And yes he only had a goal. But he still lead the tourney in scoring. So does that mean his passing is greatley underated. A poor mans shooting Brett Hull. But with the abilty to pass like a guy that can lead a tourney in assists. Does not sound bad at all.

But i will save these all. And in five years. I hope you are all ready to print it off and eat the e-mail. This is not the first nor the last time. Someone has been totally written off before they even put on an NHL sweater. Or someone has been put on such a pedistal.

Reminds of when ESPN had Kurt Warner as one of the best quarterbacks ever. Time will tell. But keep on predicating the future. I see as you are all right everytime. So why should this time be any different.

Your logic is so faulty..did steven reinprecht ever score 100 points?

 

[alanschu]

What's an "impact franchise player?" Because players like Joe Nieuwendyk and Brett Hull played in the NCAA, and they did ok. Heck, just looking at the Calgary Flames connection, you could also toss in Gary Suter. Joe Mullen was a pretty solid player too, though these two were probably not of the "impact franchise player."

If I'm not mistaken though, Hull and Nieuwendyk were too big time players that were at one point the #1 player on a team at one time or another.

It's not nearly as popular as the CHL, but some very solid players have come out of there. It's definitely getting better, as players from the NCAA actually get drafted in the first round now (Joe Nieuwendyk wasn't even a first round pick, with Dan Gratton and Scott Meclafe drafted at Center ahead of him).

 

[turnbuckle*]

What's an "impact franchise player?" Because players like Joe Nieuwendyk and Brett Hull played in the NCAA, and they did ok. Heck, just looking at the Calgary Flames connection, you could also toss in Gary Suter. Joe Mullen was a pretty solid player too, though these two were probably not of the "impact franchise player."

If I'm not mistaken though, Hull and Nieuwendyk were too big time players that were at one point the #1 player on a team at one time or another.

It's not nearly as popular as the CHL, but some very solid players have come out of there. It's definitely getting better, as players from the NCAA actually get drafted in the first round now (Joe Nieuwendyk wasn't even a first round pick, with Dan Gratton and Scott Meclafe drafted at Center ahead of him).

Well - in relation to the topic (Kessel having more offensive ability than Crosby) - we'd be talking about top 20 all time players. Do those guys qualify?

Gary Suter, Muillen? Niewendyk? Not even franchise players, let alone top 20 material. Brett Hull has gaudy numbers - franchise player? I suppose - but not top 20 material IMO. Suter and Niewy were never the top players on their team - Gilmour and McInnis in Calgary, Modano in Dallas....

Face it NCAA lovers, you make a list of the top 20 players of all time, Hull's the only one close to the top 20 other than Dryden, and even he's highly debateable.

A once in a generation talent like Crosby comes along - the NCAA player you are touting better be extraordinarly special to be considered to have more offensive potential than Crosby - I for one don't see it. If Kessel had gone into Minny and scored two or three points a game while leading an already stacked team to a title; perhaps I'd buy it. Such was not the case. Crosby is extraordianry - Kessel isn't.

 

[MN_Gopher]

Well - in relation to the topic (Kessel having more offensive ability than Crosby) - we'd be talking about top 20 all time players. Do those guys qualify?

Gary Suter, Muillen? Niewendyk? Not even franchise players, let alone top 20 material. Brett Hull has gaudy numbers - franchise player? I suppose - but not top 20 material IMO. Suter and Niewy were never the top players on their team - Gilmour and McInnis in Calgary, Modano in Dallas....

Face it NCAA lovers, you make a list of the top 20 players of all time, Hull's the only one close to the top 20 other than Dryden, and even he's highly debateable.

A once in a generation talent like Crosby comes along - the NCAA player you are touting better be extraordinarly special to be considered to have more offensive potential than Crosby - I for one don't see it. If Kessel had gone into Minny and scored two or three points a game while leading an already stacked team to a title; perhaps I'd buy it. Such was not the case. Crosby is extraordianry - Kessel isn't.

Chelios maybe? I am still loving it evertime i say NCAA. It keeps going further and further back. It used to be who is in the NHL now. Or the draft. Now it is slowly going twords all time.

How is Crosby once in a life time talent. Gretzky and Lemieux were clearly better in their eras. Crosby cannot even out score AO. How can you a once ina lifer when there are two in the NHL. And maybe Malkin next?

 

[Biscuit Bullet]

Well - in relation to the topic (Kessel having more offensive ability than Crosby) - we'd be talking about top 20 all time players. Do those guys qualify?

Gary Suter, Muillen? Niewendyk? Not even franchise players, let alone top 20 material. Brett Hull has gaudy numbers - franchise player? I suppose - but not top 20 material IMO. Suter and Niewy were never the top players on their team - Gilmour and McInnis in Calgary, Modano in Dallas....

Face it NCAA lovers, you make a list of the top 20 players of all time, Hull's the only one close to the top 20 other than Dryden, and even he's highly debateable.

A once in a generation talent like Crosby comes along - the NCAA player you are touting better be extraordinarly special to be considered to have more offensive potential than Crosby - I for one don't see it. If Kessel had gone into Minny and scored two or three points a game while leading an already stacked team to a title; perhaps I'd buy it. Such was not the case. Crosby is extraordianry - Kessel isn't.

You're not taking into account the rapidly increasing quality of players coming out of the NCAA every year. the NCAA is much more heavily scouted now than it was 20 or 30 years ago, and there's no reason to think that more and more players won't continue to come out of American universities to the NHL.

 

[Habsaku]

Chelios maybe? I am still loving it evertime i say NCAA. It keeps going further and further back. It used to be who is in the NHL now. Or the draft. Now it is slowly going twords all time.

How is Crosby once in a life time talent. Gretzky and Lemieux were clearly better in their eras. Crosby cannot even out score AO. How can you a once ina lifer when there are two in the NHL. And maybe Malkin next?

Maybe you should take a step back and realize Crosby beat Lemieux's rookie season record with the pens in a lower scoring era and with a similarly horrible team. He was also 6th in NHL scoring only 4 points behind said Ovechkin. All that at 18 years old. How can even begin to say Gretzky and Lemieux were "clearly" better in their era?

 

[crosby_87]

Did MN_Gopher really just ask how Crosby is a once in a lifetime talent.

Uhm, did you watch any NHL games this year. You do know he's only 18 years old though right? Oh yeah I forgot that Kessel has higher offensive potential, so Kessel is the real once in a lifetime talent

 

[MN_Gopher]

Maybe you should take a step back and realize Crosby beat Lemieux's rookie season record with the pens in a lower scoring era and with a similarly horrible team. He was also 6th in NHL scoring only 4 points behind said Ovechkin. All that at 18 years old. How can even begin to say Gretzky and Lemieux were "clearly" better in their era?

I was unaware rookie seasons made careers.

 

[crosby_87]

I was unaware rookie seasons made careers.

haha I find this so funny. Before the NHL season, people were saying to not hype Crosby so much before he actually makes the NHL, and then he tore apart the league. Now people are saying wait til after his 2nd season to tell whether he is good or not. Heck, I bet in 15 years some people will say "wait till he retires to judge whether he is good or not"

 

[tom_servo]

Did MN_Gopher really just ask how Crosby is a once in a lifetime talent.

Well, "once in a lifetime" is indeed pretty strong, even for Crosby. I think most of us have seen players such as Gretzky and Lemieux during our lifetimes.

 

[crosby_87]

Well, "once in a lifetime" is indeed pretty strong, even for Crosby. I think most of us have seen players such as Gretzky and Lemieux during our lifetimes.

Well I guess we interpret "once in a lifetime" differently. You think of it actually as you see one player during your lifetime who is just unreal. I interpret it to mean one or two players every decade or so that make the game great. I think of it as players like Orr/Howe, Lemieux/Gretzky. That kind of thing. But I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying how I interpreted it.

 

[tom_servo]

Well I guess we interpret "once in a lifetime" differently. You think of it actually as you see one player during your lifetime who is just unreal. I interpret it to mean one or two players every decade or so that make the game great. I think of it as players like Orr/Howe, Lemieux/Gretzky. That kind of thing. But I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just saying how I interpreted it.

I understand, but I think MN_Gopher read it more literally.

I think the term "generational talent" could be applicable for Crosby and AO.

 

[crosby_87]

I understand, but I think MN_Gopher read it more literally.

I think the term "generational talent" could be applicable for Crosby and AO.

That's exactly how I think of it. "Generational Talent".

 

[SidTheKid87]

How about generational talent? I'll go with once in a generation talent.

 

[Genghis Keon]

I understand, but I think MN_Gopher read it more literally.

I think the term "generational talent" could be applicable for Crosby and AO.

Where exactly did MN_Gopher read someone calling Crosby a "once in a life time talent"? He quoted turnbuckle, who called Crosby a "once in a generation talent."

 

[Habsaku]

I was unaware rookie seasons made careers.

I was unaware bieng 14th in ppg in the NCAA and being a fifth selection made you the most gifted offensive player in 15 years. But getting 102 points at 18 years old and arguing that it might be too early to tell if he isnt "clearly" a generationall talent, that is foolishness.

 

[tom_servo]

Where exactly did MN_Gopher read someone calling Crosby a "once in a life time talent"? He quoted turnbuckle, who called Crosby a "once in a generation talent."

Maybe he didn't read it anywhere. I'm just cleaning up semantics.