Why do some prospects choose the NCAA?

[UvBnDatsyuked]

I did not know that the CHL "year for year" of service/education expired that soon. Sounds like the powers that be, had the actuaries working overtime on the best ways to make sure that a good portion of players could not take advantage of that benefit.

 

[boredmale]

We're not talking about the BCHL, we're talking about the CHL vs NCAA. Keith played 56 NCAA games, and 56 CHL games (including playoffs). I think it's fair to say he developed as an NCAA player as much as he did as a CHL player.

Let's not forget 2 years in the AHL

 

[Hasbro]

There's also the fact that their athletic talent has currency getting players into good schools. Admission to the Ivies and the military academies is pretty tough and would be tougher after you lost your NCAA eligibility.

 

[Zauper]

I think you guys are missing what I am saying.

Play in the CHL - if you make it to the NHL GREAT!!!!! Play in the CHL and you don't make it - that is OK you get your education paid for after you took your shot.

Play in the NCAA and you get your education but, you actually turn out to be an NHLer and you have lost 2,3 or 4 years of your playing career. You can't get those years back but, you can always go to school later.

Based on what the CHL offers, the NCAA seems like a mistake. The NCAA is not the safe route because you get the education; the CHL offers the education as well. You are just blowing several years of your playing career doing the education first in the NCAA.

http://www.westerncollegehockeyblog.com/2009/3/18/802644/life-in-the-chl

32% of players actually use the opportunity for the CHL scholarship.

The scholarship is only available for 18 months after you leave the CHL. CHL -> signed -> AHL for 2 years? Sorry, you're out of luck.

I couldn't find any information -- does anyone know what schools / how much the scholarships pay? If I could get a free ride to Cornell and play in the NCAA, I'd take that in a heart beat over most other options.

 

[WreckItRask]

http://www.westerncollegehockeyblog.com/2009/3/18/802644/life-in-the-chl

32% of players actually use the opportunity for the CHL scholarship.

The scholarship is only available for 18 months after you leave the CHL. CHL -> signed -> AHL for 2 years? Sorry, you're out of luck.

I couldn't find any information -- does anyone know what schools / how much the scholarships pay? If I could get a free ride to Cornell and play in the NCAA, I'd take that in a heart beat over most other options.

The 18 month timeline is peculiar for me. It's either a completely arbitrary number (not likely), or it's a number that was specifically chosen because it forces players to decide their fate before completing a second season in the pros. Pretty slimy if you ask me. They're basically telling these guys that if you choose to play a second in the minors then poof goes the money. No wonder the number is so low of guys that exercise their right to a paid education.

 

[Zauper]

The 18 month timeline is peculiar for me. It's either a completely arbitrary number (not likely), or it's a number that was specifically chosen because it forces players to decide their fate before completing a second season in the pros. Pretty slimy if you ask me. They're basically telling these guys that if you choose to play a second in the minors then poof goes the money.

If I had to guess?

Your CHL season ends in what, April->June? Somewhere in there, depending on playoffs? School starts August->September, so it starts 6 months after the hockey season ends -- you get one year in the pros to decide if you're going to use your scholarship dollars or not.

You don't get a partial second year at all; you have to decide after ONE pro year. It's really slimy, particularly if you want them to have skills once they leave the NHL (whether or not they play a full career there), but particularly for the folks that never make it.

And like I said; how much does it even cover? Can it compete with a full ride to play NCAA hockey, which you'd get if you were that talented? Especially at a high-end school like some of the NCAA schools?

 

[Bjorn Le]

The 18 month timeline is peculiar for me. It's either a completely arbitrary number (not likely), or it's a number that was specifically chosen because it forces players to decide their fate before completing a second season in the pros. Pretty slimy if you ask me. They're basically telling these guys that if you choose to play a second in the minors then poof goes the money. No wonder the number is so low of guys that exercise their right to a paid education.

If you spend 18 months in pros you probably can stay playing hockey. Even if you don't make the NHL you can still do it for a living, whether in Europe or North America.

In 18 months you can pretty much decide if you're going to be able to this for awhile or if you want to do it. Its not "slimy" at all.

 

[asmodeanreborn]

If you spend 18 months in pros you probably can stay playing hockey. Even if you don't make the NHL you can still do it for a living, whether in Europe or North America.

In 18 months you can pretty much decide if you're going to be able to this for awhile or if you want to do it. Its not "slimy" at all.

So making $60k/year until you're 35 or so is going to support you for the rest of your life? Ouch.

 

[Bjorn Le]

So making $60k/year until you're 35 or so is going to support you for the rest of your life? Ouch.

You can make enough to make up for the education package you would have gotten. And lots of career minor leaguers live off that. You act like $60k a year is nothing, its above average.

 

[asmodeanreborn]

You can make enough to make up for the education package you would have gotten. And lots of career minor leaguers live off that. You act like $60k a year is nothing, its above average.

They live off of that money WHILE PLAYING. What happens when you retire from hockey?

 

[vwg*]

So making $60k/year until you're 35 or so is going to support you for the rest of your life? Ouch.

60k is the high end. ECHLers and other players from similar leagues make half of that if they're lucky. 60k is more in line with what an AHLer who signs a two-way contract between the NHL/AHL makes or what players will make in the top leagues in Europe (if you're good enough to get a contract with those leagues to begin with- which a lot players aren't). And most of them don't play until they're 35. Most minor leaguers seem to hang them up early these days, especially in leagues below the AHL. You'll rarely see a player over 30 in the ECHL.

 

[WreckItRask]

You can make enough to make up for the education package you would have gotten. And lots of career minor leaguers live off that. You act like $60k a year is nothing, its above average.

Sure, it's fine when they're still playing. But most "career" minor leaguers are done by 35 at the absolute latest. So what's next?

On a side note...I know nothing about you as a person, but I have to assume that you don't have any kids...am I right? $60K seemed like a lot more money when I didn't have kids and mortgage. It's not above average by any stretch of the imagination when you start to have dependents.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Sure, it's fine when they're still playing. But most "career" minor leaguers are done by 35 at the absolute latest. So what's next?

On a side note...I know nothing about you as a person, but I have to assume that you don't have any kids...am I right? $60K seemed like a lot more money when I didn't have kids and mortgage. It's not above average by any stretch of the imagination when you start to have dependents.

If you have kids you're likely going to have a wife whose going to make money too, so $60k for one person is definitely above average. Its not a lot, but its above average.

By the time your 35 after a lengthy career, you should have some money to go back to school, unless your an idiot and wasted it all.

 

[asmodeanreborn]

If you have kids you're likely going to have a wife whose going to make money too, so $60k for one person is definitely above average. Its not a lot, but its above average.

By the time your 35 after a lengthy career, you should have some money to go back to school, unless your an idiot and wasted it all.

Please don't take this as disrespect, but you're probably not 20 yet?

 

[leoleo3535]

If I had to guess?

Your CHL season ends in what, April->June? Somewhere in there, depending on playoffs? School starts August->September, so it starts 6 months after the hockey season ends -- you get one year in the pros to decide if you're going to use your scholarship dollars or not.

You don't get a partial second year at all; you have to decide after ONE pro year. It's really slimy, particularly if you want them to have skills once they leave the NHL (whether or not they play a full career there), but particularly for the folks that never make it.

And like I said; how much does it even cover? Can it compete with a full ride to play NCAA hockey, which you'd get if you were that talented? Especially at a high-end school like some of the NCAA schools?

It is a fully covered scholarship at the institution of the players choice....includes all tuitions, textbooks and compulsory fees.
Of note- you do not have to wait until you are finished playing in the CHL to make use of the scholarships....many players attend universty / college while playing in the CHL.

 

[WreckItRask]

If you have kids you're likely going to have a wife whose going to make money too, so $60k for one person is definitely above average. Its not a lot, but its above average.

By the time your 35 after a lengthy career, you should have some money to go back to school, unless your an idiot and wasted it all.

Please don't take this as disrespect, but you're probably not 20 yet?

Kind of what I'm thinking...Again, though, no disrespect. At the risk of this turning into a life lesson, there are some simple economics that you're missing. If your wife works, then does the baby take care of itself all day? Because Day Care is crazy expensive, and kids don't start Kindergarten until they're 5. Without going into too much detail, and at the risk of being presumptuous, the world is much more expensive place the older you get.

Back on topic though, I think the defenders of the CHL would be best served staying away from the education angle when comparing to the NCAA. It's just not a winning argument, and it's really not why kids choose the CHL. I don't know how you could possibly formulate an articulate argument that a kid would choose the CHL route because it's the best option for him long term away from the rink. It's just not. You'd be better served keeping the discussion focused on why the CHL is a better option if you're a high end prospect looking to make hockey your career.

 

[Zauper]

It is a fully covered scholarship at the institution of the players choice....includes all tuitions, textbooks and compulsory fees.
Of note- you do not have to wait until you are finished playing in the CHL to make use of the scholarships....many players attend universty / college while playing in the CHL.

Can you find a link explaining that? I honestly doubt that's the case: tuition at a high end U.S. university is going to cost you around $40k/year (the amount that each team is expected to be paying per year for tuition costs, currently) -- which doesn't seem to fit with the 32% using the program.

At other universities, it'll still run you 20-30k/year.

That doesn't include cost of living or other expenses, either...

Edit: Yep, it looks like the institution needs to be a publicly funded canadian school that has to be designated in advance (limited selection).

Why wouldn't I want a vastly superior education at a NCAA school instead?

4. WHL Scholarship Program:

(a) …the Club agrees to pay or reimburse or cause to be paid… the Player’s educational expenses to enrol in and attend a designated publicly funded post secondary institution based upon the assessment for a full-time student, following completion of the Player’s WHL playing career, including tuition fees, compulsory student fees, and textbooks…

FYI, it also means that they don't cover room and board while you're using the scholarship program.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Please don't take this as disrespect, but you're probably not 20 yet?

No, I'm nearly 22, I own a house and I only make about $45k a year, and my fiancee doesn't work full time since shes in Unversity.

You're absoulutely insane if you think $60k isn't very much a year, niether of my parents made that much a year and I certainly wasn't poor growing up.

Kind of what I'm thinking...Again, though, no disrespect. At the risk of this turning into a life lesson, there are some simple economics that you're missing. If your wife works, then does the baby take care of itself all day? Because Day Care is crazy expensive, and kids don't start Kindergarten until they're 5. Without going into too much detail, and at the risk of being presumptuous, the world is much more expensive place the older you get.

Back on topic though, I think the defenders of the CHL would be best served staying away from the education angle when comparing to the NCAA. It's just not a winning argument, and it's really not why kids choose the CHL. I don't know how you could possibly formulate an articulate argument that a kid would choose the CHL route because it's the best option for him long term away from the rink. It's just not. You'd be better served keeping the discussion focused on why the CHL is a better option if you're a high end prospect looking to make hockey your career.

You're over complicating this way more than it has too. A CHL player who stays in the pros longer than 2 years will be able to put themselves through College or University later if they want to go, thats why it goes away after 2 years. Saying that they won't have enough money to do it themselves is ridiculous. You think you need a scholarship to be able to afford Post-Secondary education? I can't remember who exactly, but an Ex-Kitchener Rangers player went Pro for a few years, then quit because he wasn't going anywhere when he was 24 or 25, and went back to school, he's not some homeless person with no future because it didn't work out for him and he didn't go NCAA, he lived his dream and it didn't work out and he went back to school.

Obviously if you want to pursue education you go the NCAA route, the CHL route is if you want to seriously pursue a hockey career. How many future NHLers are on an NCAA team at the time? Not very many.

The way NCAA advocates in this thread make it out to be, its a wonder why anyone takes the CHL route

 

[asmodeanreborn]

No, I'm nearly 22, I own a house and I only make about $45k a year, and my fiancee doesn't work full time since shes in Unversity.

You're absoulutely insane if you think $60k isn't very much a year, niether of my parents made that much a year and I certainly wasn't poor growing up.



You're over complicating this way more than it has too. A CHL player who stays in the pros longer than 2 years will be able to put themselves through College or University later if they want to go, thats why it goes away after 2 years. Saying that they won't have enough money to do it themselves is ridiculous. You think you need a scholarship to be able to afford Post-Secondary education? I can't remember who exactly, but an Ex-Kitchener Rangers player went Pro for a few years, then quit because he wasn't going anywhere when he was 24 or 25, and went back to school, he's not some homeless person with no future because it didn't work out for him and he didn't go NCAA, he lived his dream and it didn't work out and he went back to school.

Obviously if you want to pursue education you go the NCAA route, the CHL route is if you want to seriously pursue a hockey career. How many future NHLers are on an NCAA team at the time? Not very many.

The way NCAA advocates in this thread make it out to be, its a wonder why anyone takes the CHL route

Owning a house before 22 is impressive, congratulations. I was 28 before I was able to purchase my own home.

Either way, I think most people are trying to say that when you're in your 30's and have a family, you're not going to easily go back to school. There's not going to be much savings (trust me on that), and you're going from decent income to zero income while going to school. Not to mention that your background education (high school) isn't exactly going to be fresh in your memory. I was in the military between high school and college, and I had to take a step back in mathematics because of it. Stick 10-15 years in between there instead, and it'll be a lot tougher.


This is also not trying to say that NCAA is way better than the CHL route, it's just explaining that there are tons of reasons to take the NCAA route. On the other hand, it's rather ridiculous to claim that there aren't many future NHL players in the NCAA, as that's impossible to know. I can think of quite a lot of them that have a good/great chance to make it to the NHL.

 

[leoleo3535]

Can you find a link explaining that? I honestly doubt that's the case: tuition at a high end U.S. university is going to cost you around $40k/year (the amount that each team is expected to be paying per year for tuition costs, currently) -- which doesn't seem to fit with the 32% using the program.

At other universities, it'll still run you 20-30k/year.

That doesn't include cost of living or other expenses, either...

Edit: Yep, it looks like the institution needs to be a publicly funded canadian school that has to be designated in advance (limited selection).

Why wouldn't I want a vastly superior education at a NCAA school instead?

FYI, it also means that they don't cover room and board while you're using the scholarship program.

It is not restricted to Canadian schools....

example
08/09 - 246 scholarships , 239 chose CDN Univ/college, 7 chose USArizona State University – Tempe, AZ
Curtis Kelner – Peoria, AZ – Calgary Hitmen/Spokane Chiefs

Boise State University – Boise, ID
Aaron Roberge – Post Falls, ID – Portland Winter Hawks

Everett Community College – Everett, WA
Eric English – Vancouver, WA – Everett Silvertips

Minnesota State University – Mankato, MN
Aaron Bader – Fairbault, MN – Seattle Thunderbirds

University of North Florida – Jacksonville, FL
Devin Wilson – Regina, SK – Everett Silvertips

University of Oregon – Eugene, OR
Michael Senseman – Beaverton, OR – Regina Pats

Washington State University – Pullman, WA
John Togiai – Portland, OR – Portland Winter Hawk

Last year there were 275 scholarships and 10 players opted for US schools.

 

[Fitzy]

The heck are you talking about? The NCAA has been a very productive developmental league. Its pushing the QMJHL now in terms of output. It is the best option for a ton of American kids, and some foreigners, as well, in terms of the best educations.

And the ECAC is a good league. Its the Atlantic that sucks.