Why do so many act like "Gretzky-like numbers" were easy for everyone in the '80s?

[Rhiessan71]

Yes.

By age 30 Gretzky had .76 GPG or 718 goals in 925 games.
Lemieux had 563 goals in 669 games.

To be fair - i didn't count to their exact "30th birthday" but rather used the 30yr old season on hockey reference as a bar.

But assuming that Lemieux also plays 925 games by age 30 - that's 256 more games to score 155 more goals. Or it would necessitate a 0.6 GPG average from Lemieux in those 256 missed games to top Gretzky.

I don't see any valid argument that would have Lemieux score at a lower pace than .60 goals per game in those extra games, considering how much below his regular pace that would be.

So by age 30 - Lemieux > Gretzky in total goals scored if they play a same amount of games.

If you want to add more games to Gretzky by age 30, and add a similar amount of games to Lemieux, it still leaves Lemieux ahead. I was comparing what their numbers would look like with an equal amount of games played.

It still comes down to who did and who could have.
Gretzky did, Lemieux could have.

 

[Irato99]

Yes.

By age 30 Gretzky had .76 GPG or 718 goals in 925 games.
Lemieux had 563 goals in 669 games.

To be fair - i didn't count to their exact "30th birthday" but rather used the 30yr old season on hockey reference as a bar.

But assuming that Lemieux also plays 925 games by age 30 - that's 256 more games to score 155 more goals. Or it would necessitate a 0.6 GPG average from Lemieux in those 256 missed games to top Gretzky.

I don't see any valid argument that would have Lemieux score at a lower pace than .60 goals per game in those extra games, considering how much below his regular pace that would be.

So by age 30 - Lemieux > Gretzky in total goals scored if they play a same amount of games.

If you want to add more games to Gretzky by age 30, and add a similar amount of games to Lemieux, it still leaves Lemieux ahead. I was comparing what their numbers would look like with an equal amount of games played.

Lemieux couldn't play 925 games by age 30 because his body didn't sustain it. A game missed is a game without scoring.

 

[The Panther]

You're probably thinking about the one at the end here, though Hasek also stops Lemieux at the start of the video:

That's exactly what I was thinking of. Thanks!

 

[HawksFan28]

You're always so defensive when it comes to Gretzky...i don't even know why I bother responding to you sometimes.

Poster 1 said Gretzky's 700 goals by age 30 is maybe one of his 5 most impressive "feats" in his career. I disagreed, by claiming that as impressive as it is, Lemieux especially and even Bossy/Ovi weren't too far off that pace. Gretzky can't be the best at everything all the time, and getting upset anytime someone points it out is kinda silly.

256 more games by Lemieux you say? For him to have scored less than Gretzky's total of 718 goals in those years, Lemieux would have had to score at below a .60 click in those 256 games had he played them all. Lemieux in all of his career has never scored at below a .60 goal per game pace up until age 36. So yeah, if Lemieux plays as many games as Gretzky by age 30, he scores more goals than Gretzky. As with all hypothetical it's never a for sure thing, but in this case i'd say it's an extremely likely scenario.

Not sure how anything else you wrote is in anyway relevant to this point.

Gretzky's goal-scoring pace in just his edmonton days is more impressive than if you include his 2 first years in LA (till age 30) as it brings his average down, sure...but that wasn't what was being discussed. Gretzky also did pass a lot. Gretzky does have a lot of assists. Everyone who is posting in this thread knows this, and no one is disagreeing with any of it.

Doesn't change that by age 30 Lemieux would have had more goals than Gretzky had they played a same amount of games.

I agree with you, and indeed some people get overly defensive the second Gretzky is questioned..

I'd take a healthy Lemieux over Gretzky any day, and IMO, Lemieux would have scored more goals than Gretzky had he been healthy. Of course that is speculation but it would be a good assumption.

I've made your argument many times over the years when it comes to goals, and it always ends the same... "Gretzky did and Mario didn't"... Sure indeed that is true but it doesn't mean Mario couldn't because evidence suggests he could..

If you adjust statistics for games played Gretzky and Mario are like neck and neck - statistically they're pretty much equals.

When it comes to Gretzky or Lemieux, I think it really comes down to which style do you prefer? because that is really the only difference... I take Lemieux, you can't go wrong with a big skilled power forward/playmaker.

Lemieux has one thing Gretzky didn't have and that is size and Lemieux knew how to use it to his advantage....

If it matters Lemieux scored at 1.88 ppg over his career, Gretzky 1.92 - that is splitting hairs. IMO, I think Mario had it worse than Gretzky with the injuries and sickness he had to go through so who knows? perhaps a healthy Mario has a few years where he is scoring 2.3 ppg...

Like I said they're statistically equal IMO.

The only thing that matters to me is ppg - not total points..

Lemieux scored .75 gpg, Gretzky .60.

Lemieux assists per game 1.13, Gretzky 1.32.

It's so close it's not even worth arguing. Gretzky and Lemieux are equal.

 

[OldGreatWestern]

Putting Ovechkin up against 80s goaltenders would be a hilarious sight to see. He'd score a hat trick every game, they we're awful.

 

[tazzy19]

At the end of the day, Gretzky was the fastest (took less games than Lemieux or anyone) to 200 goals, 300 goals, 400, 500 goals, 600 goals, and, yes, 700 goals (so I'm not sure what all the fuss here is about). He was also the fastest to 800 goals. And the only one to score almost 900.

I mean, what more can a guy do?! Lol

 

[tazzy19]

Putting Ovechkin up against 80s goaltenders would be a hilarious sight to see. He'd score a hat trick every game, they we're awful.

Yeah, he'd probably score close to Gretzky's goal scoring numbers. But let's see him pop 120-130 assists while putting up those gaudy goal totals like Gretzky was able to do.

 

[tazzy19]

I agree with you, and indeed some people get overly defensive the second Gretzky is questioned..

I'd take a healthy Lemieux over Gretzky any day, and IMO, Lemieux would have scored more goals than Gretzky had he been healthy. Of course that is speculation but it would be a good assumption.

I've made your argument many times over the years when it comes to goals, and it always ends the same... "Gretzky did and Mario didn't"... Sure indeed that is true but it doesn't mean Mario couldn't because evidence suggests he could..

If you adjust statistics for games played Gretzky and Mario are like neck and neck - statistically they're pretty much equals.

When it comes to Gretzky or Lemieux, I think it really comes down to which style do you prefer? because that is really the only difference... I take Lemieux, you can't go wrong with a big skilled power forward/playmaker.

Lemieux has one thing Gretzky didn't have and that is size and Lemieux knew how to use it to his advantage....

If it matters Lemieux scored at 1.88 ppg over his career, Gretzky 1.92 - that is splitting hairs. IMO, I think Mario had it worse than Gretzky with the injuries and sickness he had to go through so who knows? perhaps a healthy Mario has a few years where he is scoring 2.3 ppg...

Like I said they're statistically equal IMO.

The only thing that matters to me is ppg - not total points..

Lemieux scored .75 gpg, Gretzky .60.

Lemieux assists per game 1.13, Gretzky 1.32.

It's so close it's not even worth arguing. Gretzky and Lemieux are equal.

One thing you're forgetting is that Gretzky played the equivalent of 7 seasons more games than Lemieux. Gretzky trumps Lemieux's PPG after the same number of games, and if you look at just their prime years (their first 12 seasons), Gretzky destroys Lemiuex in PPG.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

One thing I've never heard brought up in these discussions is time on ice. What was it like in the 80's? We don't have stats for it, but was it common for a top player like Gretzky to, for example, play 30min a game? Or was it more like today where a top forward will play 20min.

 

[bobholly39]

At the end of the day, Gretzky was the fastest (took less games than Lemieux or anyone) to 200 goals, 300 goals, 400, 500 goals, 600 goals, and, yes, 700 goals (so I'm not sure what all the fuss here is about). He was also the fastest to 800 goals. And the only one to score almost 900.

I mean, what more can a guy do?! Lol

Nobody said there's anything more he can or should do.

Someone was saying Gretzky scoring 700 goals by age 30 was one of the most impressive things he did.

I disagreed and said it's not all that unique because I think Lemieux could have done it sooner without missed games.

There are indeed areas in which Gretzky trumps Lemieux, but goal scoring isn't it.

 

[gary69]

Putting Ovechkin up against 80s goaltenders would be a hilarious sight to see. He'd score a hat trick every game, they we're awful.

Nah, with the wooden stick and what the training was back then, I doubt that.

He probably couldn't handle the rough game either since nobody would fight on behalf of a Russian, so'll he'll get beaten a lot in fights and had his career ended pretty early because of injuries.

Or because of much lower salary (in relative terms as well) he'll go back to Russia to save his health.

 

[authentic]

Yes.

By age 30 Gretzky had .76 GPG or 718 goals in 925 games.
Lemieux had 563 goals in 669 games.

To be fair - i didn't count to their exact "30th birthday" but rather used the 30yr old season on hockey reference as a bar.

But assuming that Lemieux also plays 925 games by age 30 - that's 256 more games to score 155 more goals. Or it would necessitate a 0.6 GPG average from Lemieux in those 256 missed games to top Gretzky.

I don't see any valid argument that would have Lemieux score at a lower pace than .60 goals per game in those extra games, considering how much below his regular pace that would be.

So by age 30 - Lemieux > Gretzky in total goals scored if they play a same amount of games.

If you want to add more games to Gretzky by age 30, and add a similar amount of games to Lemieux, it still leaves Lemieux ahead. I was comparing what their numbers would look like with an equal amount of games played.

This isn't even taking into account the difference in eras of each of their seasons until 30. Gretzky played in higher scoring seasons. Lemieux was a better goal scorer until the age of 30, and then after 30 it wasn't close.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ice Time

One thing I've never heard brought up in these discussions is time on ice. What was it like in the 80's? We don't have stats for it, but was it common for a top player like Gretzky to, for example, play 30min a game? Or was it more like today where a top forward will play 20min.

False cross era comparable. Specifically, Wayne Gretzky' point totals gradually decreased as shift length went down in the NHL post 1985-86:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gretzwa01.html

Point is that the total minutes have to be understood within the context of shift length and the total number of shifts. Reducing shift length from the 90 second level to the 30-45 second level removes the greatest attribute that Wayne Gretzky had, the ability to manage a shift, controlling the offensive flow of the game.

Interesting example from an end of season game, 2015-16 NHL featuring Washington(Ovechkin) and Pittsburgh(Crosby)

http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxscores/201604070WSH.html

One goal was the total output between two great offensive talents. Average shift lenght for each was below a minute. Other less talented players had more shifts, opportunities an responsibilities to start fresh. Granted they were defencemen but we are not talking Orr, Harvey, Coffey, Lidstrom level talents.

This trend to short shifts is what suppresses offensive talent.

 

[Irato99]

I'd take a healthy Lemieux over Gretzky any day, and IMO, Lemieux would have scored more goals than Gretzky had he been healthy. Of course that is speculation but it would be a good assumption.

Yeah but a 6'4" Gretzky would have scored even more goals, you know speculation can work on both sides.

 

[Irato99]

Nobody said there's anything more he can or should do.

Someone was saying Gretzky scoring 700 goals by age 30 was one of the most impressive things he did.

I disagreed and said it's not all that unique because I think Lemieux could have done it sooner without missed games.

There are indeed areas in which Gretzky trumps Lemieux, but goal scoring isn't it.

Funny thing is that Lemieux never reached 700 goals, not by 30, not by 40, not even by 50...

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Funny thing is that Lemieux never reached 700 goals, not by 30, not by 40, not even by 50...

Not really funny when you realize the reason for this was cancer and being born with a spine condition

 

[Irato99]

Not really funny when you realize the reason for this was cancer and being born with a spine condition

Cancer? While I agree it's not a funny matter, Lemieux had his best scoring streak coming right after he missed 24 games for cancer treatments, he even scored at a higher rate than the games prior to that on the 92-93 season (30 goals in the 20 remaining games). So I don't think it's big factor. Also Gretzky was born to be small, so much that some thought he would get killed in the NHL, he wasn't as lucky as Lemieux with his size.

 

[HawksFan28]

One thing I've never heard brought up in these discussions is time on ice. What was it like in the 80's? We don't have stats for it, but was it common for a top player like Gretzky to, for example, play 30min a game? Or was it more like today where a top forward will play 20min.

I brought it up.... Indeed Gretzky played 30 minutes a game, but I can't prove it because they didn't track (or make public) TOI until like 1998.

 

[HawksFan28]

Yeah but a 6'4" Gretzky would have scored even more goals, you know speculation can work on both sides.

But Gretzky wasn't and Lemieux in this prime put up similar stats to Gretzky so there is evidence to suggest Lemieux had he played the same number of games as Gretzky would be neck and neck with Gretzky.

Funny how Gretzky gets worshiped like God and Lemieux is given no credit at all - it's almost as if some of you get offended when Lemieux is given attention...

I take Lemieux over Gretzky....

 

[Dustin]

Yes.

By age 30 Gretzky had .76 GPG or 718 goals in 925 games.
Lemieux had 563 goals in 669 games.

To be fair - i didn't count to their exact "30th birthday" but rather used the 30yr old season on hockey reference as a bar.

But assuming that Lemieux also plays 925 games by age 30 - that's 256 more games to score 155 more goals. Or it would necessitate a 0.6 GPG average from Lemieux in those 256 missed games to top Gretzky.

I don't see any valid argument that would have Lemieux score at a lower pace than .60 goals per game in those extra games, considering how much below his regular pace that would be.

So by age 30 - Lemieux > Gretzky in total goals scored if they play a same amount of games.

If you want to add more games to Gretzky by age 30, and add a similar amount of games to Lemieux, it still leaves Lemieux ahead. I was comparing what their numbers would look like with an equal amount of games played.

It's certainly interesting data that is for sure. How many goals did Gretzky have at the 669 game mark?

 

[tazzy19]

But Gretzky wasn't and Lemieux in this prime put up similar stats to Gretzky so there is evidence to suggest Lemieux had he played the same number of games as Gretzky would be neck and neck with Gretzky.

Funny how Gretzky gets worshiped like God and Lemieux is given no credit at all - it's almost as if some of you get offended when Lemieux is given attention...

I take Lemieux over Gretzky....

You can take Lemieux, and I'll take the guy who destroys Lemieux's PPG average in the playoffs.

 

[Rebuilt]

Its not about any of this. Its about the current Millennial Gerneration not having a Gretzky, and thus 'water down' Gretzky in order to show their current heros are just as special.

The baby boom had Bobby Orr. We of Generation X got to grow up with both Gretzky and Lemiuex.

The Millennials get Crosby Ovechkin and Malkin (so far) and probably Mc David. None are remotely as good as Lemiuex let alone Gretzky and I feel so blessed to have been alive when it all was unfolding.

 

[The Panther]

Someone was saying Gretzky scoring 700 goals by age 30 was one of the most impressive things he did.

I disagreed...

Well, there you go! 706 goals by age 29 isn't particularly impressive! Why, it's barely even worth mentioning.

There are indeed areas in which Gretzky trumps Lemieux, but goal scoring isn't it.

Yeah... except in:
Most goals in one season:
1) Gretzky 92
2) Gretzky 87
Fastest 200 goals
1) Gretzky
Fastest 300 goals
1) Gretzky
Fastest 400 goals
1) Gretzky
Fastest 500 goals
1) Gretzky
Fastest 600 goals
1) Gretzky
Fastest 700 goals
1) Gretzky
Highest goals-per-game in one season:
1) Gretzky 1.18
2) Gretzky 1.15
Most goals, one season, including playoffs:
1) Gretzky 100
2) Gretzky 97
Most hat-tricks, one season:
1) Gretzky 10
2) Gretzky 10
Fastest 50 goals, one season:
1) Wayne Gretzky
2) Wayne Gretzky
Most goals after 50 games, from start of season:
1) Wayne Gretzky
2) Wayne Gretzky

So, yeah, Mario is just trumping him there!

The only area in which Lemieux can be said to out-pace Gretzky in anything is in goal-scoring in the latter half of their careers, or, say, after age 30-ish. It's clear that Lemieux was a more prolific goal-scorer in his 30s than Gretzky in the much longer period of his 30s (see next quote, below)... but why should we assume that Lemieux could have kept up his partial-season-every-couple-of-years paces for the duration of his 30s, if he'd played every night as Gretzky did? I mean we're talking about a guy much bigger and stronger than Gretzky who quit hockey at age 31 because it was too physically tough for him.

It's certainly interesting data that is for sure. How many goals did Gretzky have at the 669 game mark?

Lemieux had 563 at the 669 game-mark, and Gretzky had 572. Gretzky win.

Lemieux retired after 915 games, and with 690 goals. After 915 games, Gretzky had 715. Gretzky win.

I might add that's also 715 goals with 5 Cup Final runs, 3 Canada Cups, a World Championships, more day-to-day media scrutiny than Mario could dream of in Pittsburgh, being traded to a bottom-feeder team, and massively harder travel schedule than Mario ever had.

This isn't even taking into account the difference in eras of each of their seasons until 30. Gretzky played in higher scoring seasons.

Oh yes, the old "they-played-in-different-eras!" nonsense again.

In Mario's first two seasons, NHL scoring, per team, was 3.93 GPG. In Wayne's first two seasons, it was 3.68 GPG. Mario entered a higher-scoring NHL than Wayne did, and he didn't enter on an expansion team (albeit a bad one). Yet in their first two seasons, Gretzky scored 106 goals while being known mainly as a playmaker, while Mario scored 91 while being known mainly as a goal scorer.

Then, from his 3rd season (when he really reaches his peak of goal-scoring) through his 11th season (ending when he's 30), Mario's GPG is 0.91. However, he played only 517 games in this period. Wayne's next 517 games (from 1981 --> early 1988), his GPG is 0.91. Match.

It's a similar story in the playoffs, where Mario played 'only' 107 games. In those 107 games, he scored 76 goals. In his first 107 playoff games, Wayne scored 71 goals... (but then had another 10 in the next 12 games).

Lemieux was a better goal scorer until the age of 30, and then after 30 it wasn't close.

As my data above shows, Lemieux was not a better goal-scorer until the age of 30.

I agree that Lemieux was the better goal-scorer when each player was past 30, but consider that Mario played only one season of 70+ games past age 30, while Wayne played 6, which hugely lowered his per-game averages.

After a partial season at age 35 with Jagr outscoring Lemieux game-by-game, Jagr left the Penguins. Lemieux's goal-scoring stats after that are:
42 goals / 127 games

It's good for a player of advanced age, of course, but it's hardly overwhelming. In 1996-97, with the Rangers (age 36), Gretzky scored 35 goals in 107 games overall.

Moreover, in the playoffs after age 30:

Lemieux 23 games / 9 goals
Gretzky 58 games / 29 goals

Lemieux's stats dropped off hugely in the 2001 playoffs, which supports my theory that his per-game stats past age-30 are slightly unrealistic in the context of a full season (or without a Jagr to support him). So, while I agree that Mario was better than Wayne at goal-scoring when each was past 30, I think the per-game stats give a distorted view of that. And anyway, Wayne's playoff goal-scoring is better than Mario's past 30.

I brought it up.... Indeed Gretzky played 30 minutes a game, but I can't prove it because they didn't track (or make public) TOI until like 1998.

The reason you can't prove it is because it isn't true. Gretzky never averaged 30 minutes per game. As mentioned before, when Gretzky was 22, Sather went public to announce that he was cutting Gretzky's per-game minutes, since he'd been a bit burned out at the end of the media-intense 1981-82 season and had been chasing records all year.

Can somebody go back and watch three or four average Oilers' games (not games like the 50-in-39 game when he'd obviously be getting more ice time than usual) to confirm this?

 

[Dustin]

Lemieux had 563 at the 669 game-mark, and Gretzky had 572. Gretzky win.

Lemieux retired after 915 games, and with 690 goals. After 915 games, Gretzky had 715. Gretzky win.

I might add that's also 715 goals with 5 Cup Final runs, 3 Canada Cups, a World Championships, more day-to-day media scrutiny than Mario could dream of in Pittsburgh, being traded to a bottom-feeder team, and massively harder travel schedule than Mario ever had.

?

Wow. Those are certainly closer though than I would have thought. Gretzky was so far ahead of anyone else, it's kind of weird seeing similar numbers even if Gretzky is out producing him.

I personally don't like using an average GPG and PPG when the samples don't match up (equal amount of games but one player took years longer) or even point totals over the same amount of games played for the same reason.

With that being said I do find solace in the fact that in some stats Lemieux is seen in a favourable light compared to Gretzky.

Either way, none of this Lemieux talk has persuaded me that he is better than Gretzky or that had they played the same amount of games Lemieux would have more points.

While Lemieux may have been the better scorer after 30, it pales in comparison to how much a better player Gretzky was before 30 and especially when first entering the league.

 

[bobholly39]

Someone was saying Gretzky scoring 700 goals by age 30 was one of the most impressive things he did.

I disagreed

Well, there you go! 706 goals by age 29 isn't particularly impressive! Why, it's barely even worth mentioning.

I swear it's like arguing with children in this thread.

What I said and what you paraphrased is the same thing. Good job.

I said Gretzky's 706 goals is not particularly impressive and that it's barely worth mentionning. Yup, bravo. Reading comprehension 101.

What I said was that i don't think it was one of the 5 most impressive things Gretzky did. And it's not. But that's what happens when you talk to fanboys in Gretzky threads who are insecure. Say the least bit "not 100% super duper supportive of Wayne Gretzky" thing and you get a 100% defensive wall of text in response talking about how Godly Gretzky is that is completely off point.

Gretzky - 163 assists.
Gretzky 215 points
Gretzky 2857 career points
Gretzky 1963 career assists
Gretzky 6 Conn Smythe worthy runs.

There you go....5 things I find more impressive about Gretzky than his amount of goals by age 30...I could probably have named 10 more too in 10 seconds. So my initial point stands. Gretzky scoring 700 goals by age 30 is not one of his 5 more impressive feats.

So, yeah, Mario is just trumping him there!

Reading comprehension 101 again....nowhere in my post (or any of my posts) did I say Lemieux trumps Gretzky. What I said is that goal scoring is not an area where Gretzky trumps Lemieux. Especially when discussing goal totals by age 30.

What does that mean? It means that maybe in some areas Gretzky *does* trump Lemieux, but goal scoring isn't one of them, especially not for goals by age 30.