Why do so many act like "Gretzky-like numbers" were easy for everyone in the '80s?

[tazzy19]

I see this idea getting thrown around all over this board whenever comparing Gretzky to today's players. People act like EVERY star player was getting 160-215 points in the 1980s/90s. The reality is, not one single player (besides Mario Lemieux) has even broken 155 points points in a season....ever (not just the 1980s). How many times did Gretzky break 160 points? 9 times - and would have broken it a couple more times if weren't for injuries. So take out Mario Lemieux, and that's doing something over and over again - 9 times - that no other player has done even once, EVER. That's breaking Esposito's original scoring record 9 times. Again, some people here act like every player and his dog were breaking 160 points, when the reality is NO ONE has done it even once except for Mario Lemieux. Another thing that bothers me, is when some people act like Yzerman scoring 155 points is in the same realm as Gretzky scoring 215 points. No. It's not. It's a difference of 60 points.

Another line that gets thrown around is, "It's not possible to score 200 points today." Well, here's the kicker: Take away Gretzky and Lemieux from the 1980s, and you can apply the exact same line! Again, no one besides those two ever even broke 155 points in the 1980s/90s (or ever), and the closest was still 60 points back of Gretzky's record.

This is a guy who scored 163 assists in a season when the #2 guy scored 93 assists. If the 1980s/90s were the reason for Gretzky's dominance, where are all the other 100 assist scorers? I mean, he has eleven of them, so there must be a plethora of others who at least did it....once? Oh wait, there was not one other 100 assist scorer in the 1980s until 1989 (you guessed it, Mario Lemieux!)....and none since (except by, you guessed it, Gretzky of course).

Sorry for the rant, but this was getting to me and I felt something needed to be said.

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[King Mapes]

Okay but Gretzky and Lemieux wouldn't have got 200 points today. Everyone knows how much they dominated, though.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I'm pretty sure people say guys like Malkin and Crosby could put up similar numbers in that era.

That's far from "everybody", on the contrary it's two of the best players ever.

 

[tazzy19]

Okay but Gretzky and Lemieux wouldn't have got 200 points today. Everyone knows how much they dominated, though.

I don't think so either, but let's turn this around and look at it in reverse: Just imagine if Gretzky and Lemieux has no red line in the 1980s/90s? And all the extra power plays? And the no touch rules? How many points would they have gotten back then with those same rules? 250? 300?

 

[Balance]

The goaltending was horrible. Can you imagine what Ovechkin would do in the 80's? It would not be fair.

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

Ovie could've scored 70+ goals in the 80's.

 

[tazzy19]

I'm pretty sure people say guys like Malkin and Crosby could put up similar numbers in that era.

That's far from "everybody", on the contrary it's the two best players ever.

Malkin and Crosby are the two best players ever?

 

[Balance]

Re-watch 80's goaltending. You could take a slapper with no screen in any area of the ice and easily score. That is pretty much impossible now with the butterfly style of goaltending.

 

[tazzy19]

Ovie could've scored 70+ goals in the 80's.

Still around 20 goals off Gretzky's 87 and 92. And how many assists would Ovie have scored to go along with those 70+ goals?

 

[tazzy19]

Re-watch 80's goaltending. You could take a slapper with no screen in any area of the ice and easily score. That is pretty much impossible now with the butterfly style of goaltending.

Yes, it was a higher scoring environment, and goaltending equipment was much smaller then. But the flip side is why didn't players like Yzerman, Messier and Bossy score anywhere close to 200 points a year? Or was Gretzky playing against a different set of goalies than the rest of the NHL?

 

[King Mapes]

Ovie could've scored 70+ goals in the 80's.

He could have scored close to 100. He had 65 before. Hell even with scoring way down he scores 50+.

 

[AD1066]

Still around 20 goals off Gretzky's 87 and 92. And how many assists would Ovie have scored to go along with those 70+ goals?

Ovechkin would have considerably fewer assists, but could have challenged Gretzky for the single-season goal scoring record.

Gretzky's 92 goal season isn't even the most impressive of all-time, relative to league-wide scoring conditions.

 

[danyhabsfan]

Ovie could've scored 70+ goals in the 80's.

per game?

 

[King Mapes]

So what you're saying is that every player -- from Sakic to Yzerman to Messier to Bossy -- should have been scoring 200 points a year? Or was Gretzky playing against a different set of goalies than the rest of the NHL?

This is the problem with the thread. People aren't saying what you're saying, you are putting words in their month.

 

[Senor Catface]

Okay but Gretzky and Lemieux wouldn't have got 200 points today. Everyone knows how much they dominated, though.

I disagree, especially with Gretzky. When it comes to Gretzky, people really underestimate how much better he was compared to his peers.

To be fair it's a very vocal and particular part of these boards that make that argument though.

 

[tazzy19]

Ovechkin would have considerably fewer assists, but could have challenged Gretzky for the single-season goal scoring record.

Gretzky's 92 goal season isn't even the most impressive of all-time, relative to league-wide scoring conditions.

Gretzky's 87 goals in 1984 was far more impressive. He did it in only 74 games. But this is all beside the point. This is not a goal scoring discussion. This is a discussion on Gretzky's overall dominance, and how far ahead he was of his peers in the 1980s. A lot of people act like every star player in the 1980s was putting up similar numbers....when clearly it wasn't even close.

 

[King Mapes]

I disagree, especially with Gretzky. When it comes to Gretzky, people really underestimate how much better he was compared to his peers.

To be fair it's a very vocal and particular part of these boards that make that argument though.

Maybe the select few I personally haven't seen. I have seen stuff like they wouldn't have scored as many points which is obvious. But they would have dominated any era and he could have still got 150+ points which would be incredible in this era.

 

[tazzy19]

This is the problem with the thread. People aren't saying what you're saying, you are putting words in their month.

People aren't saying the things I wrote in my original post? I completely disagree.

 

[AD1066]

Gretzky's 87 goals in 1984 was far more impressive. He did it in only 74 games. But this is all beside the point. This is not a goal scoring discussion. This is a discussion on Gretzky's overall dominance, and how far ahead he was of his peers in the 1980s. A lot of people act like every star player in the 1980s was putting up similar numbers....when clearly, it wasn't even close.

Probably more of a vocal minority. But it's reasonable to think Gretzky would score fewer points today, even as the GOAT. Still ahead of the pack, but more of a 130-140 point player at his best, IMO.

 

[King Mapes]

People aren't saying the things I wrote in my original post? I completely disagree.

Well he certainly didn't say anything you said in that post.

 

[tazzy19]

Well he certainly didn't say anything you said in that post.

Ah, I see. I read, "people," in your post, and you referred to the "thread," not him specifically. Well, I revised my post. The point still stands however. And has yet to be addressed.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I see this idea getting thrown around all over this board whenever comparing Gretzky to today's players. People act like EVERY star player was getting 160-215 points in the 1980s/90s. The reality is, not one single player (besides Mario Lemieux) has even broken 155 points points in a season....ever (not just the 1980s). How many times did Gretzky break 160 points? 9 times - and would have broken it a couple more times if weren't for injuries. So take out Mario Lemieux, and that's doing something over and over again - 9 times - that no other player has done even once, EVER. That's breaking Esposito's original scoring record 9 times. Again, some people here act like every player and his dog were breaking 160 points, when the reality is NO ONE has done it even once except for Mario Lemieux. Another thing that bothers me, is when some people act like Yzerman scoring 155 points is in the same realm as Gretzky scoring 215 points. No. It's not. It's a difference of 60 points.

Another line that gets thrown around is, "It's not possible to score 200 points today." Well, here's the kicker: Take away Gretzky and Lemieux from the 1980s, and you can apply the exact same line! Again, no one besides those two ever even broke 155 points in the 1980s/90s (or ever), and the closest was still 60 points back of Gretzky's record.

This is a guy who scored 163 assists in a season when the #2 guy scored 93 assists. If the 1980s/90s were the reason for Gretzky's dominance, where are all the other 100 assist scorers? I mean, he has eleven of them, so there must be a plethora of others who at least did it....once? Oh wait, there was not one other 100 assist scorer until 1989 (you guessed it, Mario Lemieux!)....and none since (except by, you guessed it, Gretzky of course).

Sorry for the rant, but this was getting to me and I felt something needed to be said.

Great post. I feel like Gretzky is almost underrated around here. He has more assists alone than the next closest player has points. That's not a small thing.

 

[longchange]

Ignorance is the main factor.

 

[RempireStateBuilding]

Yes, it was a higher scoring environment, and goaltending equipment was much smaller then. But the flip side is why didn't Sakic players like Yzerman, Messier and Bossy score anywhere close to 200 points a year? Or was Gretzky playing against a different set of goalies than the rest of the NHL?

Those are strange players to pick to reinforce a point of players not putting up massive points. All those guys put up multiple 100+ point seasons and hovered around ~120-150 at their best. Gretzky had beyond dominant years, but that doesn't discredit or minimize the fact of other guys also putting up mid-100 point seasons at the same time Gretzky was putting up 180+. Bossy's entire career save 3 seasons were all nearly 120+ point seasons. They didn't put up 200+ because they weren't as godlike in their prime compared to the absolute best scoring forward in professional hockey history.

 

[tazzy19]

Probably more of a vocal minority. But it's reasonable to think Gretzky would score fewer points today, even as the GOAT. Still ahead of the pack, but more of a 130-140 point player at his best, IMO.

That's fair, though I'm not sure if they're in the minority. I see it rampant in the general discussion board. And most of them have Gretzky in the 90-100 point range. These are numbers he scored as a 36 and 37 year old (shadow of his former self) on a terrible team while playing in an era just as low scoring as today. Not to mention without today's rules (two line offsides, much more contact, etc). If they had the same rules in 1997 and 1998 as they do today, and put him on a good team, and Gretzky would have probably scored close to your 130 point projection -- as a 36 and 37 year old.