Why do so many act like "Gretzky-like numbers" were easy for everyone in the '80s?

[DisgruntledGoat*]

@ 0:43

Healy gives Gretzky nothing to shoot at. So what does Gretzky do? Hits the hardest target to reach in full stride.

And he was shell of his Oiler version.

Gretzky's shot really doesn't get enough credit.

The Gretzky half-windup slapshot (although he does a full backswing in this one) is the most dangerous shot in hockey history, IMO. More than a Bobby Hull slapper, a Bossy wrister, or a Brett Hull one-timer... Thats probably the most unstoppable shot we've ever seen.

 

[authentic]

Gretzky's shot really doesn't get enough credit.

The Gretzky half-windup slapshot (although he does a full backswing in this one) is the most dangerous shot in hockey history, IMO. More than a Bobby Hull slapper, a Bossy wrister, or a Brett Hull one-timer... Thats probably the most unstoppable shot we've ever seen.

So all of the most unstoppable shots belonged to players who started their careers before the 90s? Sounds reasonable.

 

[ytsur*]

So all of the most unstoppable shots belonged to players who started their careers before the 90s? Sounds reasonable.

That's your takeaway from the post? Good grief are you defensive. With respect to the players mentioned, who among those whose career started after 1990 tops them? This will be fun. Dying to see you start off with "Stamkos/Ovechkin over Brett" or "Weber over Hull" LOL

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

So all of the most unstoppable shots belonged to players who started their careers before the 90s? Sounds reasonable.

I picked a couple well-known examples at random.

But by all means, use this is an opportunity to wow us all with your 'insight' into how today's players have evolved into supermen.

 

[authentic]

I picked a couple well-known examples at random.

But by all means, use this is an opportunity to wow us all with your 'insight' into how today's players have evolved into supermen.

There's that classic line again.

 

[blogofmike]

That's your takeaway from the post? Good grief are you defensive. With respect to the players mentioned, who among those whose career started after 1990 tops them? This will be fun. Dying to see you start off with "Stamkos/Ovechkin over Brett" or "Weber over Hull" LOL

In terms of one-timers it's hard to differentiate between them. They all lived off top of the faceoff circle one-timers and are/were all dangerous.

The only thing Brett would have over Ovechkin is that he could hit the one-timer from either side of the ice, or the middle of the high slot. He was seemingly always ready for the one-timer. As the whole world should know, Ovechkin stands on top of the left faceoff circle. Then again, if it keeps working, why move?

Stamkos also seems better from the left circle, but at least ventures elsewhere. The only knock on him (and it's only a knock against peers like these) is that he hasn't been the same with Marty St. Louis gone.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

I would have no problem with anyone wanting to add Stamkos or Ovechkin or Sakic to my little list (which also left off Mario's wrister, btw, which is the more egregious offense).

... But the point was that the Gretzky half-backswing slapper still trumps them all.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I would have no problem with anyone wanting to add Stamkos or Ovechkin or Sakic to my little list (which also left off Mario's wrister, btw, which is the more egregious offense).

... But the point was that the Gretzky half-backswing slapper still trumps them all.

Lemieuxs glove side wrister on a breakaway is the most dangerous of all time. You could probably count on two hands the amount of times he's missed or been saved on them.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Maurice Richard

Maurice Richard, 500th career goal, October 1957. Covered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fCx1DHpIAc

 

[Rhiessan71]

Lemieuxs glove side wrister on a breakaway is the most dangerous of all time. You could probably count on two hands the amount of times he's missed or been saved on them.

The only goalie I ever remember doing reasonably well vs Mario was Belfour.
Eddie was one of the better skating goalies in NHL history and was very strong on breakaways because of it.
You had to be pretty fast in the first place and going full tilt to beat a backwards skating Belfour back to the net.

 

[The Panther]

I still can't comprehend Gretzky's scoring 706 goals before the end of his twenties... that has to be up there in the top-5 most unbelievable Gretzky stats. Even though I grew up watching him, I at first thought there was some mistake when I calculated that. Yeah, higher-scoring era, blah-blah-blah, but that couldn't be right... But it is.



706 goals before he turned 30... but he wasn't primarily a goal-scorer.

 

[The Panther]

The only goalie I ever remember doing reasonably well vs Mario was Belfour.
Eddie was one of the better skating goalies in NHL history and was very strong on breakaways because of it.
You had to be pretty fast in the first place and going full tilt to beat a backwards skating Belfour back to the net.

I seem to remember Belfour -- or was it Hasek? -- stopping Mario on a breakaway in the '92 Finals...? Do I have that right?

Blackhawks got spanked in the end anyway.

 

[ytsur*]

706 goals before he turned 30... but he wasn't primarily a goal-scorer.

Yet in recent times here at HF, many posters place Ovechkin, Lemieux, Bobby Hull, Bossy and gosh knows who else ahead of Gretzky in terms of who the greatest goal scorer is. Oh, the hilarity.

 

[bobholly39]

Yet in recent times here at HF, many posters place Ovechkin, Lemieux, Bobby Hull, Bossy and gosh knows who else ahead of Gretzky in terms of who the greatest goal scorer is. Oh, the hilarity.

You do realize that through age 30, if my math is correct, Gretzky's goal per game was:

0.76. Bossy was 0.78, Lemieux was .84

Gretzky: 925 games 718 goals
Bossy 752 games 573 goals
Lemieux 669 games 563 goals

So yeah. I'd still have Lemieux as greatest goal scorer. I'm not as impressed by that Gretzky stat (700 goals by age 30) as I am by other stats. I think that's one area I feel very secure in saying Lemieux would have beaten him if he hadn't missed all those games to injuries. Bossy didnt start till age 21 and stopped playing at age 30, so a bit different with him though his overall pace was comparable to Gretzky in those years

For the record, Ovechkin himself at age 30 is #5 in goals per game with 0.63 GPG or 525 in 839 games. Pretty impressive in a lower scoring era too.

 

[The Panther]

You do realize that through age 30, if my math is correct, Gretzky's goal per game was:

0.76. Bossy was 0.78, Lemieux was .84

Gretzky: 925 games 718 goals
Bossy 752 games 573 goals
Lemieux 669 games 563 goals

I have no issue with anyone arguing for The Rocket, Hull-senior, Mario, or (maybe now) Ovechkin as a greater goal-scorer than Gretzky. A case can be made for all 4 of them. But that's where it ends. Bossy is not in the discussion because head to head with Gretzky, he was spanked by Gretzky in goals when Gretzky wasn't even primarily a goal-scorer.

What I do have a problem with is statements like this:

I think that's one area I feel very secure in saying Lemieux would have beaten him if he hadn't missed all those games to injuries.

I personally think it's too speculative to assume that much on behalf of a player who scored 204 fewer goals than Gretzky, and whose last full season was at age 31.

As I pointed out much earlier in this epic thread, what is most impressive to me is not the guy who can score 70 goals once, or 180 points once, but rather the guy who can do it year after year, game-in and game-out. Lemieux never proved he could do that.

 

[bobholly39]

I have no issue with anyone arguing for The Rocket, Hull-senior, Mario, or (maybe now) Ovechkin as a greater goal-scorer than Gretzky. A case can be made for all 4 of them. But that's where it ends. Bossy is not in the discussion because head to head with Gretzky, he was spanked by Gretzky in goals when Gretzky wasn't even primarily a goal-scorer.

What I do have a problem with is statements like this:

I personally think it's too speculative to assume that much on behalf of a player who scored 204 fewer goals than Gretzky, and whose last full season was at age 31.

As I pointed out much earlier in this epic thread, what is most impressive to me is not the guy who can score 70 goals once, or 180 points once, but rather the guy who can do it year after year, game-in and game-out. Lemieux never proved he could do that.

I don't consider Bossy in the discussion as greatest goal scorer of all time primarily for the reason you laid out, with how badly Gretzky topped him in those years. So I agree. He's not far though, and i was just pointing out that when looking at raw goals by age 30 (you being impressed by 700+ from gretzky) Bossy is actually very close pace-wise. So it's not necessarily as impressive a feat by Gretzky as you implied - he's done some more impressive things.

To your second statement. It's not like i'm saying no injuries and Lemieux hits 200 points every year. I've said before I think Lemieux didn't have the consistency to match Gretzky's top end performances year over year. I think Lemieux would have been the type of player to put together a few monster years with a few slower ones. So Peak he might rival Gretzky, but overall Gretzky would be more consistent in his prime and outscore him thanks to that for points.

But 700+ goals by age 30 Lemieux would definitely have surpassed without injuries.

Goal Scoring is simply something Lemieux was more consistent at than Gretzky throughout his career, and with the same amount of games played than Gretzky my money is on Lemieux having more goals by age 30.

 

[The Panther]

Sorry if I came off as snipey, Bob: your post was quite reasonable.

I don't consider Bossy in the discussion as greatest goal scorer of all time primarily for the reason you laid out, with how badly Gretzky topped him in those years. So I agree. He's not far though, and i was just pointing out that when looking at raw goals by age 30 (you being impressed by 700+ from gretzky) Bossy is actually very close pace-wise.

Not that far... not that close. Gretzky put up 706 goals in about 11.5 seasons (up to his 30th birthday in late January, 1991). Bossy racked up 573 in ten seasons. I'm of the firm opinion that with (a) the Islanders' contemporary decline, and (b) Bossy's turning 30 during 1986-87, he wasn't going to keep up his pace beyond that point in time. Anyway, Bossy would have needed 706 - 573 = 133 more goals in 1.5 seasons to match Gretzky's 12-season pace. Was Bossy going to score 67 goals per season, either out of the QMJHL at age 18, or past age-30 on a declining Islander team?

I'd definitely put Bossy solidly in the tier-2 of all-time goal scorers (the more so in consideration of his 1981, 1982, and 1983 playoff runs), but he's behind the 'big 5' I listed above.

Goal Scoring is simply something Lemieux was more consistent at than Gretzky throughout his career, and with the same amount of games played than Gretzky my money is on Lemieux having more goals by age 30.

I can't really see how Lemieux was more consistent at scoring goals than Gretzky. I think we can safely say that Lemieux was better at scoring goals after each's first 9 or 10 seasons in the NHL... albeit Lemieux had only a couple of partial seasons after that.


Anyway, for goal scoring, I think I'd rank 'em something like:

Tier 1:
Rocket
Hull (senior)
Wayne
Mario
Ovie

Tier 2:
Gordie
Espo
Bossy
Hull (junior)

Tier 3:
A bunch of guys, including Lafleur, Bure, Dionne, etc.


(not counting players from the 1920s' era, mind.)

 

[daver]

You do realize that through age 30, if my math is correct, Gretzky's goal per game was:

0.76. Bossy was 0.78, Lemieux was .84

Gretzky: 925 games 718 goals
Bossy 752 games 573 goals
Lemieux 669 games 563 goals

So yeah. I'd still have Lemieux as greatest goal scorer.

As with everything Mario vs. Wayne related, there is a lot of assumptions to be made with this stat along with using this stat as the primary metric to identify the best goalscorer.

 

[ytsur*]

You do realize that through age 30, if my math is correct, Gretzky's goal per game was:

0.76. Bossy was 0.78, Lemieux was .84

Gretzky: 925 games 718 goals
Bossy 752 games 573 goals
Lemieux 669 games 563 goals

So yeah. I'd still have Lemieux as greatest goal scorer. I'm not as impressed by that Gretzky stat (700 goals by age 30) as I am by other stats. I think that's one area I feel very secure in saying Lemieux would have beaten him if he hadn't missed all those games to injuries. Bossy didnt start till age 21 and stopped playing at age 30, so a bit different with him though his overall pace was comparable to Gretzky in those years

For the record, Ovechkin himself at age 30 is #5 in goals per game with 0.63 GPG or 525 in 839 games. Pretty impressive in a lower scoring era too.

It's like you're completely glossing over games-played/sample size and how that affects averages. Apparently in your backwards world,
256 more games played for Mario would have seen him get older and put more mileage on his body, yet somehow kept his goals-per-game intact? Or at like 0.8? Yeah, no. And do you really want me to put you on the spot with Gretzky's goals-per-game at the smaller sample size you posted above for Mario? Well, here you go (I actually "saddled" Gretzky with 29 extra games to make my data collection less time consuming)....

696 GP (his entire Oilers career) - 583 G - 0.84 GPG

......
......
......
As a pass-first center
.....
.....
.....
to go along with 1,086 assists

So just as you like to play pretend, I'll too "imagine" what Wayne would have accomplished goal-scoring-wise had he thought shoot first like Mario and Bossy.....and Rocket, Hull and most certainly Ovechkin.

 

[bobholly39]

It's like you're completely glossing over games-played/sample size and how that affects averages. Apparently in your backwards world,
256 more games played for Mario would have seen him get older and put more mileage on his body, yet somehow kept his goals-per-game intact? Or at like 0.8? Yeah, no. And do you really want me to put you on the spot with Gretzky's goals-per-game at the smaller sample size you posted above for Mario? Well, here you go (I actually "saddled" Gretzky with 29 extra games to make my data collection less time consuming)....

696 GP (his entire Oilers career) - 583 G - 0.84 GPG

......
......
......
As a pass-first center
.....
.....
.....
to go along with 1,086 assists

So just as you like to play pretend, I'll too "imagine" what Wayne would have accomplished goal-scoring-wise had he thought shoot first like Mario and Bossy.....and Rocket, Hull and most certainly Ovechkin.

You're always so defensive when it comes to Gretzky...i don't even know why I bother responding to you sometimes.

Poster 1 said Gretzky's 700 goals by age 30 is maybe one of his 5 most impressive "feats" in his career. I disagreed, by claiming that as impressive as it is, Lemieux especially and even Bossy/Ovi weren't too far off that pace. Gretzky can't be the best at everything all the time, and getting upset anytime someone points it out is kinda silly.

256 more games by Lemieux you say? For him to have scored less than Gretzky's total of 718 goals in those years, Lemieux would have had to score at below a .60 click in those 256 games had he played them all. Lemieux in all of his career has never scored at below a .60 goal per game pace up until age 36. So yeah, if Lemieux plays as many games as Gretzky by age 30, he scores more goals than Gretzky. As with all hypothetical it's never a for sure thing, but in this case i'd say it's an extremely likely scenario.

Not sure how anything else you wrote is in anyway relevant to this point.

Gretzky's goal-scoring pace in just his edmonton days is more impressive than if you include his 2 first years in LA (till age 30) as it brings his average down, sure...but that wasn't what was being discussed. Gretzky also did pass a lot. Gretzky does have a lot of assists. Everyone who is posting in this thread knows this, and no one is disagreeing with any of it.

Doesn't change that by age 30 Lemieux would have had more goals than Gretzky had they played a same amount of games.

 

[bobholly39]

Sorry if I came off as snipey, Bob: your post was quite reasonable.

Not that far... not that close. Gretzky put up 706 goals in about 11.5 seasons (up to his 30th birthday in late January, 1991). Bossy racked up 573 in ten seasons. I'm of the firm opinion that with (a) the Islanders' contemporary decline, and (b) Bossy's turning 30 during 1986-87, he wasn't going to keep up his pace beyond that point in time. Anyway, Bossy would have needed 706 - 573 = 133 more goals in 1.5 seasons to match Gretzky's 12-season pace. Was Bossy going to score 67 goals per season, either out of the QMJHL at age 18, or past age-30 on a declining Islander team?

I'd definitely put Bossy solidly in the tier-2 of all-time goal scorers (the more so in consideration of his 1981, 1982, and 1983 playoff runs), but he's behind the 'big 5' I listed above.

I can't really see how Lemieux was more consistent at scoring goals than Gretzky. I think we can safely say that Lemieux was better at scoring goals after each's first 9 or 10 seasons in the NHL... albeit Lemieux had only a couple of partial seasons after that.


Anyway, for goal scoring, I think I'd rank 'em something like:

Tier 1:
Rocket
Hull (senior)
Wayne
Mario
Ovie

Tier 2:
Gordie
Espo
Bossy
Hull (junior)

Tier 3:
A bunch of guys, including Lafleur, Bure, Dionne, etc.


(not counting players from the 1920s' era, mind.)

I think when ranking players to me peak matters a whole lot. So i do agree with looking at Gretzky very highly as a goal scorer because no one was able to surpass his best seasons. I don't like that he scored less goals later on though. So it's a bit of a tradeoff for me, as I absolutely love how Lemieux was able to still score at a very, very high pace later on in his career.

Ovi....it's hard to argue against him being in tier 1. In a few years some might even launch a strong argument that he should be #1 overall, let alone just tier 1. It's still a possibility he can surpass Gretzky's career goals too, in a much lower scoring era, which would be amazing. Despite all of that, i tend to look at Ovie as more of a "compiler" than as a scorer with an elite "peak".

Would Ovechkin have been able to score 85-90+ goals in the 80s at his very best? Or would he have capped off closer to ~70ish (like Bossy) - but simply hit those numbers consistently almost every year? I tend to think it's the latter. And I dont know if I want to argue for the greatest goal scorer if he wasn't able to keep up with the best at his very best. Something a bit underwhelming there imo. I know some people argue that 65 goals in 2008 is comparable to 85-90 in the 80s, and i don't really agree with that, and even if i did it's just one year, he didn't come close to 65 again a second time.

Rocket did 50 in 50. Bobby Hull did some great stuff too (a bit less familiar with him, but i believe he's up there). Lemieux/Gretzky yes. I'm a bit hesitant on Ovi.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It's ridiculous to believe that at the end of 85-86 Gretzkys 215 were 63 more points than anyone had ever scored before. Just ridiculous.

I always wonder what gretzky thought about lemieux when mario scored 168 points the first time. That was the first time anyone besides himself had ever scored over 152. Then the next season mario hits 199 and Wayne must have been like finally some competion.

 

[GuineaPig]

I seem to remember Belfour -- or was it Hasek? -- stopping Mario on a breakaway in the '92 Finals...? Do I have that right?

Blackhawks got spanked in the end anyway.

You're probably thinking about the one at the end here, though Hasek also stops Lemieux at the start of the video:

 

[Dustin]

Doesn't change that by age 30 Lemieux would have had more goals than Gretzky had they played a same amount of games.

So are you including the bump in goals that Gretzky would also score from games missed?

Lemieux would have certainly been close but I don't see him beating it.

 

[bobholly39]

So are you including the bump in goals that Gretzky would also score from games missed?

Lemieux would have certainly been close but I don't see him beating it.

Yes.

By age 30 Gretzky had .76 GPG or 718 goals in 925 games.
Lemieux had 563 goals in 669 games.

To be fair - i didn't count to their exact "30th birthday" but rather used the 30yr old season on hockey reference as a bar.

But assuming that Lemieux also plays 925 games by age 30 - that's 256 more games to score 155 more goals. Or it would necessitate a 0.6 GPG average from Lemieux in those 256 missed games to top Gretzky.

I don't see any valid argument that would have Lemieux score at a lower pace than .60 goals per game in those extra games, considering how much below his regular pace that would be.

So by age 30 - Lemieux > Gretzky in total goals scored if they play a same amount of games.

If you want to add more games to Gretzky by age 30, and add a similar amount of games to Lemieux, it still leaves Lemieux ahead. I was comparing what their numbers would look like with an equal amount of games played.