Why do Leaf GM's screw up their tenure right out of the gate?

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Gotta love McGuire yelling "let the rebuild begin!!!!". LOL!!

Then it promptly ended a year and 3 months later.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

During the days with JFJ, Peddie and OTPP that looks to have been the case.

However, With Burke and Nonis - The issue they had is with the lure of having a good team in Toronto right away and not accessing what they had properly.

Burke was smarter and could fast track with free wallets.

 

[ironhorse384]

Because lately - Quinn, Ferguson, Fletcher, Burke - they all seem to think they can fix things by making trades or signing the right UFA's.

To me the question is do the Leafs keep hiring GM's who don't believe in rebuilding through the draft OR does/has ownership refused to allow GM's to build through the draft?

I don't think its an issue of ownership not allowing a build through the draft rather ownership hiring a guy and giving him full reign to do what he wants. We're not hockey guys so we'll hire a hockey guy and let him do what he needs to instead of giving them a clear mandate, like say we want a complete overhaul from the ground up and we're willing to be patient as long as we see some tangible improvement that eventually results in playoff appearances.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Because lately - Quinn, Ferguson, Fletcher, Burke - they all seem to think they can fix things by making trades or signing the right UFA's.

To me the question is do the Leafs keep hiring GM's who don't believe in rebuilding through the draft OR does/has ownership refused to allow GM's to build through the draft?

Bingo.

 

[Swervin81]

Burke was smarter and could fast track with free wallets.

He thought that signing Christian Hanson ad Tyler Bozak were like getting free 1st round picks and made the picks for the Kessel trade expendable

 

[LeafsNation75]

I voted for JFJ because he wanted to do a proper rebuild and was forced to make moves so they were able to win now.

 

[Myke]

If Rask stays a Leaf it changes the entire future of the organization. A stabalizing force in net can do alot for a team (see, Habs).

 

[indigobuffalo]

That's 1 of 2 popular theories around Jeff Finger. The other one is that Fletcher confused Jeff Finger for teammate Kurt Sauer (who was not worth that either and signed for half of what Finger got in Arizona). The only time I've seen a mistake that blatantly dumb was the Ryan O'Reilly offer sheet, where the Flames offer sheeted O'Reilly, who would've had to go through waivers because he played in Europe, and so if the Avs didn't match, the Flames would've basically given a 1st and 3rd to Colorado for literally nothing. Only difference is, that crisis was averted by the Avs matching, the Leafs signing Finger actually happened. Either way, the Jeff Finger mixup and ROR offer sheet have to be the two dumbest **** ups I've ever seen in the NHL management wise.

Dale Tallon was fired as GM of the Hawks for not filing the qualifying offers on several key Hawks players prior to the deadline, which resulted in several or those players (notably Sharp) having to be re-signed at higher cap hits as a result, directly contributing to the Hawks cap stress that forced them to trade off Byfuglien/Ladd to the Thrashers, Niemi to the Sharks (which was also due to the offer sheet against Hjalmarsson, which the Hawks matched, but made their cap situation even worse), and finally, Versteeg.

So that's up there too.

 

[achtungbaby]

He thought that signing Christian Hanson ad Tyler Bozak were like getting free 1st round picks and made the picks for the Kessel trade expendable

I don't know who was more delusional, Burke or the followers who believed in him.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Except the pick was Tyler Seguin and not Taylor Hall so if the leafs draft Seguin and Hamilton instead of acquiring Kessel , its a clear win for the leafs. Not only that but the leafs could have potentially drafted higher the year Hamilton was taken so they could be even farther ahead now.

How? You're forgetting that in the universe where the Leafs have Seguin and Hamilton they don't have Kessel.

You honestly think Seguin would be doing what he's doing in DAL here in Toronto if there's no Jamie Benn or Jason Spezza or Nichuskin floating around him?

He's good, but he's not light-years ahead of Kessel.

Hamilton is in a similar situation, he's only just now breaking out, and it's mostly in an environment surrounded by solid leadership and grizzled, cup-winning veterans.

Which is something the Leafs clearly don't have. Thrusting Seguin and Hamilton into the burning spotlight in Toronto and asking them to be lynchpins in the teams' offense would not be positive results.

Certainly not in the area of 10 years further ahead compared to having Kessel.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Nonis: Clarkson signing, Bolland trade, Phaneuf signing, etc.

Burke: Kessel trade, Komisarek signing, etc.

Fletcher: Steen trade, Finger signing, etc.

JFJ: Rask trade, failure to prepare for the new NHL, etc.

These guys wrecked the team before getting their feet wet and spent the rest of their time cleaning up their own messes.

- If he doesn't sign Clarkson people will complain about him not trying to improve the team and if Clarkson does well then thats even worse. Bolland played great when he played but he asked for too much money.Nonis wanted to sign him or else he wouldn't have traded for him. Again with Phaneuf? Phaneuf has shown he's significantly underrated by Leafs fans. Also, why wouldn't he sign Phaneuf? You thought he was going to take a pay cut? Teams aren't going to give up significant value for Phaneuf if he was expiring

- Kessel is an elite goal scoring winger , Seguin isn't even on the Bruins anymore because he was disruptive, Hamilton wont replace Chara by any means and has Jared Knight even played a game? Komisarek was a good signing but he didn't turn out that well in Toronto. Hindsight is always 50-50, he turns out good no one complains right? Easy to judge after the fact

-Steen stagnated by the time he was traded, people need to understand this and it shows how many people were even fans at that time. Steen had 4! points in 20 games by the time he was traded . Finger? Well overpaid but again, hindsight

-See, more hindsight . Rask at the time of being traded was being traded for Raycroft who was a season removed from winning the Calder and he's in good company too for that in goalies like Belfour,Brodeur and Nabokov as the last goalies to win it. The Leafs had Justin Pogge in the system who won gold at world juniors. Yah, its a ****** trade now but what if Raycroft or Pogge panned out like they thought they were? JFJ also wanted a full rebuild but wasn't allowed to by the upper management so its not like he can be blamed for his moves 100%

 

[Pilky01]

Actually, he did not inherit a last place team. He inherited a bubble team which is why he felt comfortable trading two mid first rounders. I'm not saying it was the right decision, or that he didn't horribly misjudge his team. But I understand his thought process and why he did what he did.

Brian Burke was hired in November 2008.

The Leafs finished the 2007/08 season in fifth place in their division. There are/were only five teams in the division.

Do you just not understand the word "last"?

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

add Kessel and Lupul signing to Nonis

 

[hfdshdh]

Seguin isn't even on the Bruins anymore because he was disruptive

To be fair, that's kinda underselling the leading scorer in the NHL right now.

 

[silentbob37*]

I don't think its an issue of ownership not allowing a build through the draft rather ownership hiring a guy and giving him full reign to do what he wants. We're not hockey guys so we'll hire a hockey guy and let him do what he needs to instead of giving them a clear mandate, like say we want a complete overhaul from the ground up and we're willing to be patient as long as we see some tangible improvement that eventually results in playoff appearances.

Either way it comes back to ownership. Either they don't allow the GM to do it (the rumor with Ferguson) or they hire the GM who sells them not needing it (I'd bet my left nut that's what Burke said in his job interview).

If Rask stays a Leaf it changes the entire future of the organization. A stabalizing force in net can do alot for a team (see, Habs).

Thats when I first got on the rebuild horse - they had Pogge and Rask, who would both goign to take 5-6 years to develop into NHL starters. They should blow the rsoter up then(they weren't about to win anything) aimed to draft early and often for 3-4 years in a row (Around 06-10, give or take) and attempt to build a good nucleus and core group to play in front of those goalies.

- If he doesn't sign Clarkson people will complain about him not trying to improve the team and if Clarkson does well then thats even worse. Bolland played great when he played but he asked for too much money.Nonis wanted to sign him or else he wouldn't have traded for him. Again with Phaneuf? Phaneuf has shown he's significantly underrated by Leafs fans. Also, why wouldn't he sign Phaneuf? You thought he was going to take a pay cut? Teams aren't going to give up significant value for Phaneuf if he was expiring

- Kessel is an elite goal scoring winger , Seguin isn't even on the Bruins anymore because he was disruptive, Hamilton wont replace Chara by any means and has Jared Knight even played a game? Komisarek was a good signing but he didn't turn out that well in Toronto. Hindsight is always 50-50, he turns out good no one complains right? Easy to judge after the fact

-Steen stagnated by the time he was traded, people need to understand this and it shows how many people were even fans at that time. Steen had 4! points in 20 games by the time he was traded . Finger? Well overpaid but again, hindsight

-See, more hindsight . Rask at the time of being traded was being traded for Raycroft who was a season removed from winning the Calder and he's in good company too for that in goalies like Belfour,Brodeur and Nabokov as the last goalies to win it. The Leafs had Justin Pogge in the system who won gold at world juniors. Yah, its a ****** trade now but what if Raycroft or Pogge panned out like they thought they were? JFJ also wanted a full rebuild but wasn't allowed to by the upper management so its not like he can be blamed for his moves 100%

Except some of us saw these moves as bad/questionable at the time. Some of us knew they weren't Kessel away from winning the cup and putting their all their eggs in the Kessel/Phaneuf/Kadri basket was very risky.

Some of us were baffeled not by Steen being moved but by the return.

Some of us thought trading Rask (voted best goalie at the WJC) was traded before we KNEW whether he or Pogge was the better goalie.

 

[Leafs at Knight]

Rask for Raycroft is one of the worst trades in the last decade.

 

[ironhorse384]

How? You're forgetting that in the universe where the Leafs have Seguin and Hamilton they don't have Kessel.

You honestly think Seguin would be doing what he's doing in DAL here in Toronto if there's no Jamie Benn or Jason Spezza or Nichuskin floating around him?

He's good, but he's not light-years ahead of Kessel.

Hamilton is in a similar situation, he's only just now breaking out, and it's mostly in an environment surrounded by solid leadership and grizzled, cup-winning veterans.

Which is something the Leafs clearly don't have. Thrusting Seguin and Hamilton into the burning spotlight in Toronto and asking them to be lynchpins in the teams' offense would not be positive results.

Certainly not in the area of 10 years further ahead compared to having Kessel.

Ok , why don't we focus on what we do know rather than speculate on what we don't . The leafs, with Phil Kessel, are no better than they were prior to trading for him, so where does that rank? I think its a fail and now that we know that we can't win with him its time to move him while his value is high.

 

[FreeBird]

Rask for Raycroft is one of the worst trades in the last decade.

Not to mention Phat Phil the character guy that he is, will go down as one of the worst trade's ever in the NHL.

 

[egd27]

- If he doesn't sign Clarkson people will complain about him not trying to improve the team and if Clarkson does well then thats even worse. Bolland played great when he played but he asked for too much money.Nonis wanted to sign him or else he wouldn't have traded for him. Again with Phaneuf? Phaneuf has shown he's significantly underrated by Leafs fans. Also, why wouldn't he sign Phaneuf? You thought he was going to take a pay cut? Teams aren't going to give up significant value for Phaneuf if he was expiring

- Kessel is an elite goal scoring winger , Seguin isn't even on the Bruins anymore because he was disruptive, Hamilton wont replace Chara by any means and has Jared Knight even played a game? Komisarek was a good signing but he didn't turn out that well in Toronto. Hindsight is always 50-50, he turns out good no one complains right? Easy to judge after the fact

-Steen stagnated by the time he was traded, people need to understand this and it shows how many people were even fans at that time. Steen had 4! points in 20 games by the time he was traded . Finger? Well overpaid but again, hindsight

-See, more hindsight . Rask at the time of being traded was being traded for Raycroft who was a season removed from winning the Calder and he's in good company too for that in goalies like Belfour,Brodeur and Nabokov as the last goalies to win it. The Leafs had Justin Pogge in the system who won gold at world juniors. Yah, its a ****** trade now but what if Raycroft or Pogge panned out like they thought they were? JFJ also wanted a full rebuild but wasn't allowed to by the upper management so its not like he can be blamed for his moves 100%

Good post.

So much easier to complain when you don't look at what was going on at the time of the deal. My favourite is those that complain that Nonis didn't sell at the TD last year when they were something like 3 points away from the position that would result in home ice advantage in the playoffs

 

[Tak7]

Because lately - Quinn, Ferguson, Fletcher, Burke - they all seem to think they can fix things by making trades or signing the right UFA's.

To me the question is do the Leafs keep hiring GM's who don't believe in rebuilding through the draft OR does/has ownership refused to allow GM's to build through the draft?

We know JFJ was refused the rebuild despite pushing for it - but that was under the different regime.

We can assume, without ever knowing, that Burke had far more autonomy than JFJ & could have pushed the rebuild button if he wanted too - but it's all just speculation. Not once did Burke act or talk like he had anyone to answer to while he was here (until, ironically, 24 hours after he was let go).

 

[Atomos2]

They are forced to do something quick and they don't think it through. Simple as that.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Burke was smarter and could fast track with free wallets.

There's no problem with supplementing your prospects with coveted UFA's whether it be from Europe or the NCAA

Burke's issue was before most of that with throwing way too much money at players in July. Calling it "our draft" doesn't help his cause either. I do beilve Burke is a good hockey guy though; Some his trades quite frankly were heists, And deserves credit for them. But as I eluded to in the previous post, He couldn't resist the urge to "go for it" quickly.

Which is a shame cause had he taken the other route or a more patient one, We may have been well on our way by now.


Shanahan on the other hand is doing pretty much the opposite to that; Taking his time to properly access what he has, Then working from there.

 

[horner]

Nonis: Clarkson signing, Bolland trade, Phaneuf signing, etc.

Burke: Kessel trade, Komisarek signing, etc.

Fletcher: Steen trade, Finger signing, etc.

JFJ: Rask trade, failure to prepare for the new NHL, etc.

These guys wrecked the team before getting their feet wet and spent the rest of their time cleaning up their own messes.

They think or they have been told to make the playoffs no matter what.

If they had smart ownership or a strong enough president ( Shanahan I hope ) to say we need to do this the right way ( Build Through The Draft ) or I will quit !!!!!!!!!! Which out of all of the group above, I thought Burke would have been that guy but nope here we are today.

And what we are left with is Kessel who sucked last night then today leaves the ice early basically says go **** you coach. Now that is true leadership. Leave Phil and lets get this rebuild going.

Rielly - you can see that he wants to be a leader and he is 21 ( you give me hope )

We have always tried to make the playoffs, lets build instead of just making the playoffs.

Iam so excited about what is going to happen this TDL and the Draft.

 

[Wendel17]

Because lately - Quinn, Ferguson, Fletcher, Burke - they all seem to think they can fix things by making trades or signing the right UFA's.

To me the question is do the Leafs keep hiring GM's who don't believe in rebuilding through the draft OR does/has ownership refused to allow GM's to build through the draft?

Quinn didn't have a cap to contend with, and in fairness to him, many of our biggest rivals at the time also spent big money building their teams. It was the way to go pre-cap.

 

[pucky]

Because lately - Quinn, Ferguson, Fletcher, Burke - they all seem to think they can fix things by making trades or signing the right UFA's.

To me the question is do the Leafs keep hiring GM's who don't believe in rebuilding through the draft OR does/has ownership refused to allow GM's to build through the draft?

I don't know who was more delusional, Burke or the followers who believed in him.

Is there still supporters?!? LOL. Funny stuff.

Before the cap problem, they spent but they were spending because they thought the players they brought in meant instant PR/marketing buzz - look at the former stars they brought in - Lindros, Joseph etc. etc. - go down the line. Whether it was a trade or UFA, they were players who were past their prime or not their former selves. They did this for two reasons - the PR and the idea that their presence meant a playoff spot.

They have never had ownership which would be willing to sacrifice a few playoff seasons as that what it usually means when you do a major overhaul. Burke tried to sugarcoat his tenure with this crafty term, 're-tool' crap. While he was GM, he made some of the worst deals in recent memory and then JFJ, who supposedly wanted to rebuild, continued this destruction. If GMs come to Toronto, it's because they are willing to take the challenge of building the team quickly, on the fly, and don't mind being pressured to fix things quickly. There's still no trades, #1st rounders or good prospects coming back in trades. There is only a few weeks until the deadline. Buffalo just did a major trade and they're already around last place overall.

The Toronto media keeps parroting the idea that the Leafs ownership is willing to rebuild/blow it up (call it whatever you want) but there's no proof of this yet, at all. It's just a bunch of nonsense. Leaf fans are gullible. That's the only truth.