A1LeafNation
Obsession beats talent everytime!!
- Oct 17, 2010
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Why do Leaf GM's screw up their tenure right out of the gate?
- Thread starter A1LeafNation
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paulhiggins
Registered User
- Feb 4, 2006
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It was Fletcher's second time around. He did fine the first time when he was the real GM instead of a placeholder.
Tak7
Registered User
Making game 7 against Boston was the worst thing that could have happened to this organization - it perpetuated a false sense of progress.
What happens with that false sense? GMs try to accelerate the process, and that's exactly what Nonis tried to do.
Nonis came into a scenario where he had a decent talent pool, a relatively good situation under the cap, cap flexibility, and draft picks, and blew it all away within a few months of taking the job.
I'd say not only did Nonis have a dreadful start, but his work in this tenure is more damaging than most of his predecessors combined.
What happens with that false sense? GMs try to accelerate the process, and that's exactly what Nonis tried to do.
Nonis came into a scenario where he had a decent talent pool, a relatively good situation under the cap, cap flexibility, and draft picks, and blew it all away within a few months of taking the job.
I'd say not only did Nonis have a dreadful start, but his work in this tenure is more damaging than most of his predecessors combined.
It's so hard to vote for just one. They all had rough starts. All of them felt the pressure to win now and tried to make their mark immediately.
JFJ: Trading Rask was justifiable considering we had Pogge.
Burke: Thought he was trading two 10-15 spot 1st rounders for Kessel. In no way did he believe there was a chance he was trading the second overall pick.
Nonis: As Tak said above, taking Boston to 7 games made people think this team was further than it was, hence the signing of Clarkson.
Fletcher: As I am writing this, this is actually the only GM where I see no justification for any of his moves. Finger was horrible. The Steen deal was brutal.
So Fletcher gets my vote.
JFJ: Trading Rask was justifiable considering we had Pogge.
Burke: Thought he was trading two 10-15 spot 1st rounders for Kessel. In no way did he believe there was a chance he was trading the second overall pick.
Nonis: As Tak said above, taking Boston to 7 games made people think this team was further than it was, hence the signing of Clarkson.
Fletcher: As I am writing this, this is actually the only GM where I see no justification for any of his moves. Finger was horrible. The Steen deal was brutal.
So Fletcher gets my vote.
613Leafer
Registered User
- May 26, 2008
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The Kessel trade is the one that set the tone for the subsequent 5+ years. If the Leafs had been heavily focused on the draft between 2010-2012, who knows what Nonis would have done had he taken over at that point.
The Rask trade was also pretty terrible,though it didn't really set any tone for subsequent years.
The Rask trade was also pretty terrible,though it didn't really set any tone for subsequent years.
A1LeafNation
Obsession beats talent everytime!!
- Oct 17, 2010
- 27,429
- 17,389
If the Rask trade doesn't happen, I don't think Fletcher/Burke/Nonis ever become Leaf GM's.
A1LeafNation
Obsession beats talent everytime!!
- Oct 17, 2010
- 27,429
- 17,389
Its my theory that Burke told Fletcher "3.5M/4years" and Fletcher misinterpreted as 3.5 per year for 4 years. MLSE's fault for bringing back a guy without all his marbles.
1:10 Burke and Fletcher talking until Burke spots the camera...
A last place team trading two first rounders is just about the worst start any GM can have.
I cant believe people still use this as an excuse for Burke...as if horribly overestimating the ability of his roster is not a terrible mistake in and of itself.
The guy inhereted a LAST PLACE TEAM with Vesa Toskala as the starting goaltender and proceeded to trade away two first round picks. It was LUDICROUS!
I cant believe people still use this as an excuse for Burke...as if horribly overestimating the ability of his roster is not a terrible mistake in and of itself.
The guy inhereted a LAST PLACE TEAM with Vesa Toskala as the starting goaltender and proceeded to trade away two first round picks. It was LUDICROUS!
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Pookie
Wear a mask
- Oct 23, 2013
- 16,172
- 6,684
It's pretty simple actually. Look at who hired them.
When you start any job, your boss/organization lays out the goals. The Leafs have had a short term goal to "compete for a playoff spot."
They aren't looking to be #1. They are looking to be "in the hunt" and maybe catch that 7-8th spot and sooner rather than later. That comes from Owners through the President.
That's what all of these GMs would have likely heard and would have expectations around that.
Therefore it's not surprising that they pay heavily on the UFA front. That they seek tweaks over rebuilds.
Until that changes in the board, we will continue to see tweaks.
Bingo!
Ownership has been to blame and to a large extent Richard Peddie I suspect in particular.
The moves (or at least type of moves) these new GMs made would have all been covered in the interview.
Longshot
Registered User
Want the simple answer?
The organization (upper management and ownership) has no patience and demands quick fixes immediately to get back to the playoffs. When ownership's idea of success is making the playoffs there isn't a lot of incentive for team management to take a patient and thoughtful approach to team building.
The organization (upper management and ownership) has no patience and demands quick fixes immediately to get back to the playoffs. When ownership's idea of success is making the playoffs there isn't a lot of incentive for team management to take a patient and thoughtful approach to team building.
Tough to say which one was worse since they were all so bad.
The Kessel trade basically ended the Leafs rebuild before it ever had a chance to start. Without Kessel on the team the Leafs probably would have had 1st overall in'10, a top 5 pick in '11 and maybe higher than 5th overall in '12. Who knows, maybe in an alternate universe where we didn't trade for Kessel we would have Seguin, Larsson and Galchenyuk right now.
Cliff Fletcher did an astounding amount of damage in such a short time. Steen is exactly the type of player the Leafs need right now. Trading up for Schenn seemed good at the time but looks like a horrid decision in hindsight. Jeff Finger...yeah.
Aside from the Clarkson signing Nonis has actually been fairly responsible compared to the Leafs previous GM's (what a sad statement) and I'm convinced Tim Leiweke played a big role in that clusterf*** of a signing. The Bolland trade and Robidas signing were bad but not the type of franchise altering bad moves that we saw in the Kessel, Rask and Steen moves.
This cycle of terrible moves by our GMs isn't going to end until the team is run by people who are willing to ignore impatient fans and media, and fully commit to a long term rebuild. No more "re-tools" or quick fixes.
The Kessel trade basically ended the Leafs rebuild before it ever had a chance to start. Without Kessel on the team the Leafs probably would have had 1st overall in'10, a top 5 pick in '11 and maybe higher than 5th overall in '12. Who knows, maybe in an alternate universe where we didn't trade for Kessel we would have Seguin, Larsson and Galchenyuk right now.
Cliff Fletcher did an astounding amount of damage in such a short time. Steen is exactly the type of player the Leafs need right now. Trading up for Schenn seemed good at the time but looks like a horrid decision in hindsight. Jeff Finger...yeah.
Aside from the Clarkson signing Nonis has actually been fairly responsible compared to the Leafs previous GM's (what a sad statement) and I'm convinced Tim Leiweke played a big role in that clusterf*** of a signing. The Bolland trade and Robidas signing were bad but not the type of franchise altering bad moves that we saw in the Kessel, Rask and Steen moves.
This cycle of terrible moves by our GMs isn't going to end until the team is run by people who are willing to ignore impatient fans and media, and fully commit to a long term rebuild. No more "re-tools" or quick fixes.
Nonis' bad move was signing Clarkson but Bolland was a good move as he was good for the team while healthy, barring a freak injury the Leafs and Bolland might've had a better relationship when it came to re-signing him, and they could've worked a deal out for better AAV than what he took in FLA.
IMO, the bigger issue was the Grabovski buyout, letting MacArthur walk, and letting Kulemin walk.
However, Nonis was instrumental in bringing in Phaneuf in the first place, and whatever you may feel about him, he is an asset that the Leafs can convert, if they choose, in a trade that will bring back valuable assets.
Burke's Kessel deal still looks good. Add to that all the other trades in his tenure, and the Leafs would be way, way, way, further back organizationally without Burke coming in.
I voted for Fletcher, although it was close with JFJ. The Rask trade was pretty bad, but there was no way to predict that Rask would be THAT GOOD, or that Pogge would be THAT BAD, or that Raycroft would be THAT BAD.
Fletcher unloaded Colaiacovo, Steen, signed Finger to an absurd deal, totally effed up the Tucker and Sundin situations, traded Bryan McCabe for a 4th and Mike Van Ryn who basically never played a game for the Leafs...
Fletcher was tasked with dismantling the team for a rebuild and he did it exactly the way that HFBoards thinks it should be done. Sell everyone off at rock bottom prices so that you suck and end up drafting high picks for the next few seasons.
In fact it's much more intelligent to sell off players at the best price possible to maximize asset value, in order to start the rebuild with a solid base of assets.
As a comparable, let's imagine that Shanahan becomes the next GM of the Leafs, and trades Kadri, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Komarov, and Bozak for a 4th round pick. Not each. All together for a 4th round pick.
You'd all lose your effing minds.
That's basically what Fletcher did.
ironhorse384
Registered User
Why do leaf gms fail? Simple, they lack patience they believe that they must get the leafs to the playoffs as quickly as possible without considering the long term ramifications of short term thinking. The idea that you can take a team that's , really, bereft of talent and suddenly overnight turn it into a Stanley cup contender is what plagues this franchise decade after decade. No one seems able, willing or capable of making the tough decisions that may result in the team not doing well at the present for what the team can become in the future, theoretically. There's always the risk that your draft picks will bomb. You only have to look at the oilers to see that but a lot of other teams have not had bad draft picks and its made them successful. Even if you consider the oilers picks would they look that bad if they were given some time to develop before "saving the franchise" is heaped on them? Who knows? The point is we've never really had the opportunity to find out what the leafs could become with a complete build from the ground up using primarily the draft as a way to acquire players.
This seems clearly true. Let's assume not having Kessel means the Leafs end up with 1OA, and get Taylor Hall.
Would having Dougie Hamilton and a worse version of Kessel really have us 10 years further ahead?
If you are saying anything but no to this, you're insane.
Swervin81
Leaf fan | YYZ -> SEA
That's 1 of 2 popular theories around Jeff Finger. The other one is that Fletcher confused Jeff Finger for teammate Kurt Sauer (who was not worth that either and signed for half of what Finger got in Arizona). The only time I've seen a mistake that blatantly dumb was the Ryan O'Reilly offer sheet, where the Flames offer sheeted O'Reilly, who would've had to go through waivers because he played in Europe, and so if the Avs didn't match, the Flames would've basically given a 1st and 3rd to Colorado for literally nothing. Only difference is, that crisis was averted by the Avs matching, the Leafs signing Finger actually happened. Either way, the Jeff Finger mixup and ROR offer sheet have to be the two dumbest **** ups I've ever seen in the NHL management wise.
gamer1035
Registered User
- Feb 14, 2012
- 4,191
- 878
its not only the return on the kessel deal (which was terrible). the deal also set forward the path the team was going to go in (gun for the playoffs). if we tanked and rebuilt properly i'd say we would've had our core by now.
instead we are still waiting for a blow up to start rebuilding.
ironhorse384
Registered User
Except the pick was Tyler Seguin and not Taylor Hall so if the leafs draft Seguin and Hamilton instead of acquiring Kessel , its a clear win for the leafs. Not only that but the leafs could have potentially drafted higher the year Hamilton was taken so they could be even farther ahead now.
Rare Jewel
Patience
During the days with JFJ, Peddie and OTPP that looks to have been the case.
However, With Burke and Nonis - The issue they had is with the lure of having a good team in Toronto right away and not accessing what they had properly.
A last place team trading two first rounders is just about the worst start any GM can have.
I cant believe people still use this as an excuse for Burke...as if horribly overestimating the ability of his roster is not a terrible mistake in and of itself.
The guy inhereted a LAST PLACE TEAM with Vesa Toskala as the starting goaltender and proceeded to trade away two first round picks. It was LUDICROUS!
Actually, he did not inherit a last place team. He inherited a bubble team which is why he felt comfortable trading two mid first rounders. I'm not saying it was the right decision, or that he didn't horribly misjudge his team. But I understand his thought process and why he did what he did.
Because lately - Quinn, Ferguson, Fletcher, Burke - they all seem to think they can fix things by making trades or signing the right UFA's.
To me the question is do the Leafs keep hiring GM's who don't believe in rebuilding through the draft OR does/has ownership refused to allow GM's to build through the draft?
To me the question is do the Leafs keep hiring GM's who don't believe in rebuilding through the draft OR does/has ownership refused to allow GM's to build through the draft?
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