Why did the Leafs finish last in pp time?

[Liminality]

I think Kadri making them look foolish, with 62 penalties, in 76 games, has a part to do with them being stingy with us now. There would be much more to it, but I think that Kadri easily doesn't get the benefit of the doubt anymore, and he'd like get another dozen called against him or so. We also have a group of youngsters, and it typically seems as though veterans get more benefit of the system, and also know how to work the system more. As our team matures, we will likely get more calls for.

That's the type of info I'd really like to get into. Seeing the top teams average age vs the PP opportunities. That's one reason I think of personally, refs don't give our young players the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Liminality]

Here's the real list of players who drew the most penalties per game.
Counting only the players who played 20 or more games.

Spoiler

1 MATTHEW TKACHUK L 68 42 0.618
2 MATHEW BARZAL C 82 41 0.500
3 VINCENT TROCHECKC 82 38 0.463
4 KYLE PALMIERI R 67 31 0.463
5 TOM WILSON R 99 45 0.455
6 JOSHUA HO-SANG R 22 10 0.455
7 DEREK DORSETT R 20 9 0.450
8 JOHNNY GAUDREAU L 80 36 0.450
9 CONNOR MCDAVID C 82 36 0.439
10 TYLER BERTUZZI L 48 21 0.438
11 NIKITA KUCHEROV R 97 42 0.433
12 BRENDAN SMITH D 44 19 0.432
13 WILLIAM CARRIER L 47 20 0.426
14 NICO HISCHIER C 87 37 0.425
15 BRAD MARCHAND L 80 34 0.425
16 CORY CONACHER C 38 16 0.421
17 NICK COUSINS C 71 29 0.408
18 TIMO MEIER R 91 37 0.407
19 PHILLIP DANAULT C 52 21 0.404
20 EVGENI MALKIN C 87 35 0.402
21 RYAN HARTMAN L 87 35 0.402
22 CHARLES HUDON L 72 28 0.389
23 DAVID PASTRNAK R 94 36 0.383
24 ZACH PARISE L 45 17 0.378
25 ANTOINE ROUSSEL L 73 27 0.370
26 ZACK SMITH L 68 25 0.368
27 JAMES NEAL L 91 33 0.363
28 BROCK MCGINN L 80 29 0.362
29 PATRIC HORNQVISTR 80 29 0.362
30 RICK NASH R 83 30 0.361
31 MILES WOOD L 81 29 0.358
32 GABRIEL LANDESKOGL 84 30 0.357
33 TRAVIS KONECNY C 87 31 0.356
34 BRENDAN GALLAGHERR 82 29 0.354
35 JEFF SKINNER L 82 29 0.354
36 DUSTIN BROWN R 85 30 0.353
37 DAVID PERRON L 85 30 0.353
38 REID BOUCHER C 20 7 0.350
39 NAZEM KADRI C 84 29 0.345
40 JACK EICHEL C 67 23 0.343
41 TANNER PEARSON L 86 29 0.337
42 TOMAS HERTL C 89 30 0.337
43 BLAKE WHEELER R 98 33 0.337
44 BRAYDEN POINT C 99 33 0.333
45 TAYLOR HALL L 81 27 0.333
46 JOSH ANDERSON R 69 23 0.333
47 NIKOLAJ EHLERS L 97 32 0.330
48 JAKUB VORACEK R 88 29 0.330
49 MATHIEU PERREAULTC 79 26 0.329
50 KEVIN FIALA L 92 30 0.326
51 MARK SCHEIFELE C 77 25 0.325
52 ANDREAS ATHANASIOUL 71 23 0.324
53 BRYAN RUST R 81 26 0.321
54 CLAUDE GIROUX C 88 28 0.318
55 MAX DOMI L 82 26 0.317
56 BRANDON TANEV L 78 24 0.308
57 JEAN-GABRIEL PAGEAUC 78 24 0.308
58 P.K. SUBBAN D 95 29 0.305
59 DYLAN LARKIN C 82 25 0.305
60 CLAYTON KELLER C 82 25 0.305
61 JONATHAN HUBERDEAUL 82 25 0.305
62 TOMMY WINGELS R 79 24 0.304
63 LANCE BOUMA L 53 16 0.302
64 SCOTTIE UPSHALL R 63 19 0.302
65 JOSH JOORIS R 40 12 0.300
66 MIKKO RANTANEN R 87 26 0.299
67 TYSON JOST C 71 21 0.296
68 PIERRE-LUC DUBOISC 88 26 0.295
69 EVAN RODRIGUES L 48 14 0.292
70 ONDREJ PALAT L 73 21 0.288
71 RASMUS RISTOLAINEND 73 21 0.288
72 ARTEMI PANARIN L 87 25 0.287
73 SEAN COUTURIER C 87 25 0.287
74 LARS ELLER C 105 30 0.286
75 ANTHONY CIRELLI C 35 10 0.286
76 SVEN ANDRIGHETTOR 56 16 0.286
77 YANNI GOURDE C 99 28 0.283
78 ZACH HYMAN C 89 25 0.281
79 PAUL BYRON L 82 23 0.280
80 OLIVER EKMAN-LARSSOND 82 23 0.280
81 ALEXANDER RADULOVR 82 23 0.280
82 TYLER SEGUIN C 82 23 0.280
83 JAKE DEBRUSK L 82 23 0.280
84 ALEKSANDER BARKOVC 79 22 0.278
85 JASON ZUCKER L 87 24 0.276
86 T.J. OSHIE R 98 27 0.276
87 NATHAN MACKINNONC 80 22 0.275
88 VIKTOR ARVIDSSONL 91 25 0.275
89 ANDREW SHAW R 51 14 0.275
90 CEDRIC PAQUETTE C 73 20 0.274
91 BLAKE COLEMAN C 84 23 0.274
92 JOE PAVELSKI C 92 25 0.272
93 VLADISLAV NAMESTNIKOVC 81 22 0.272
94 ONDREJ KASE R 70 19 0.271
95 MARCUS KRUGER C 48 13 0.271
96 BLAKE COMEAU L 85 23 0.271
97 SEBASTIAN AHO R 78 21 0.269
98 CHARLIE COYLE C 71 19 0.268
99 TYLER TOFFOLI C 86 23 0.267
100 MAX MCCORMICK L 30 8 0.267
101 RICHARD PANIK R 72 19 0.264
102 BRANDON SUTTER C 61 16 0.262
103 MARCUS SORENSEN L 42 11 0.262
104 SETH JONES D 84 22 0.262
105 AUSTON MATTHEWS C 69 18 0.261
106 JASON DICKINSON C 27 7 0.259
107 JORDAN EBERLE C 81 21 0.259
108 JONATHAN MARCHESSAULTC 97 25 0.258
109 LEON DRAISAITL C 78 20 0.256
110 MARCUS FOLIGNO L 82 21 0.256
111 MARK GIORDANO D 82 21 0.256
112 SAM REINHART C 82 21 0.256
113 JOHN TAVARES C 82 21 0.256
114 PATRICK KANE R 82 21 0.256
115 SIDNEY CROSBY C 94 24 0.255
116 GARNET HATHAWAY R 59 15 0.254
117 ERIK KARLSSON D 71 18 0.254
118 JESPER FAST R 71 18 0.254
119 JOONAS DONSKOI R 75 19 0.253
120 COREY PERRY R 75 19 0.253
121 EVANDER KANE L 87 22 0.253
122 MATS ZUCCARELLO R 80 20 0.250
123 JACOB TROUBA D 72 18 0.250
124 KYLE OKPOSO R 76 19 0.250
125 JAKE DOTCHIN D 48 12 0.250
126 ANTHONY DUCLAIR L 56 14 0.250
127 REMI ELIE L 72 18 0.250
128 NINO NIEDERREITERR 68 17 0.250
129 MARK BOROWIECKI D 52 13 0.250
130 BO HORVAT C 64 16 0.250
131 WILLIAM NYLANDERC 89 22 0.247
132 VLADIMIR SOBOTKAL 81 20 0.247
133 LUKE GLENDENING R 69 17 0.246
134 TOMAS TATAR L 90 22 0.244
135 MATT DUCHENE C 82 20 0.244
136 BRAYDEN SCHENN C 82 20 0.244
137 SAM BENNETT C 82 20 0.244
138 FRANK VATRANO C 41 10 0.244
139 DOMINIC TONINATOC 37 9 0.243
140 BRYAN LITTLE C 99 24 0.242
141 RYAN NUGENT-HOPKINSC 62 15 0.242
142 JADEN SCHWARTZ L 62 15 0.242
143 ADAM LOWRY C 62 15 0.242
144 MARK STONE R 58 14 0.241

Kadri at 39, Hyman at 78, Matthews at 101 and Nylander at 131. Counting all players in all positions.
I think it's fair to assume that Matthews and Nylander's drawn penalties per game will rise as they get older too.

Even though this list looks huge, the difference between Nylander and Hyman were 3 penalties taken.

If someone would like me to sort the top ones by weight again let me know cause it takes time. Looking through it at a glance though it's a mixed bag.

To me, it still seems the more agile players are more consistently at the top of this list. Especially when you look at the season before.

1	CONNOR MCDAVID	C	95	58	0.611
2	MATTHEW TKACHUK	L	80	47	0.588
3	JOHNNY GAUDREAU	L	76	39	0.513
4	NIKOLAJ EHLERS	L	82	42	0.512
5	JUSTIN ABDELKADER	L	64	31	0.484
6	DAVID PASTRNAK	R	81	39	0.481
7	NICK COUSINS	C	60	27	0.450
8	JEFF SKINNER	L	79	35	0.443
9	JASON ZUCKER	L	84	37	0.440
10	NICK FOLIGNO	L	83	36	0.434
11	JACK EICHEL	C	61	26	0.426
12	EVGENI MALKIN	C	87	37	0.425
13	TOM WILSON	R	95	40	0.421
14	ANTOINE ROUSSEL	L	60	25	0.417
15	JOHN TAVARES	C	77	32	0.416
16	TRAVIS KONECNY	C	70	29	0.414
17	BLAKE COMEAU	L	77	31	0.403
18	VINCENT TROCHECK	C	82	33	0.402
19	KYLE PALMIERI	R	80	32	0.400
20	ONDREJ PALAT	L	75	30	0.400
21	NAZEM KADRI	C	88	35	0.398
22	MARK SCHEIFELE	C	79	31	0.392
23	GARNET HATHAWAY	R	26	10	0.385
24	COREY PERRY	R	99	36	0.364
25	RYAN O'REILLY	C	72	26	0.361

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Mess]

Few compared to Komarov or few compared to the rest of the league?
I've already posted their penalties drawn for last season but I'll do it again I guess.

2017-18 season
Matthews 0.261
Nylander 0.247
Marner 0.213
Kapanen 0.111

P.S. the site doesn't sort the entire list of players in the NHL by drawn penalties per game like I wanted so the list above was the top 30 players with penalties drawn sorted by drawn per game.

But is not hard to explain why players like Tom Wilson (drew 45 penalties @ .455/g rate) , Matthew Tkachuk (drew 42 penalties @ .618 rate) or Brad Marchand (34 pens @ .425) draw a lot of penalties and its their style of play not their skating speed driving that. IMO

Leafs skilled but fast players draw very few penalties relative to other players in fact all the 3 above managed to draw Matthews (18), Nylander (22), Marner (19) = 59.

So a guy like Tkachuk plays 68 games draws 42 penalties @ .618 rate and all 3 of Leafs amigos combined draw 59 penalties in 246 man games last year. You have to see how style of play as opposed to speed is playing a big factor in that result.

What is going to change this year for Leafs top players and drawing penalties correlation that is at low rates?. If they had a Matt Tkachuk or Tom Wilson I could see how it would increase significantly.

 

[Liminality]

But is not hard to explain why players like Tom Wilson (drew 45 penalties @ .455/g rate) , Matthew Tkachuk (drew 42 penalties @ .618 rate) or Brad Marchand (34 pens @ .425) draw a lot of penalties and its their style of play not their skating speed driving that. IMO

Leafs skilled but fast players draw very few penalties relative to other players in fact all the 3 above managed to draw Matthews (18), Nylander (22), Marner (19) = 59.

So a guy like Tkachuk plays 68 games draws 42 penalties @ .618 rate and all 3 of Leafs amigos combined draw 59 penalties in 246 man games last year. You have to see how style of play as opposed to speed is playing a big factor in that result.

What is going to change this year for Leafs top players and drawing penalties correlation that is at low rates?. If they had a Matt Tkachuk or Tom Wilson I could see how it would increase significantly.

You've picked 3 players out of 25 that was in that list. Take a look at my last post and the list from 2016-17.

Speed still draws more penalties in general.

Also again, those players are drawing retaliation penalties which usually don't help the team at all if that means offsetting minor penalties.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

That's the type of info I'd really like to get into. Seeing the top teams average age vs the PP opportunities. That's one reason I think of personally, refs don't give our young players the benefit of the doubt.

Much more likely they simply don't know how to work the refs as well.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

This conspiracy theory that the Leafs are getting screwed over by the refs is silly.

If it was the case we would have also taken a lot more penalties.

 

[Mess]

You've picked 3 players out of 25 that was in that list. Take a look at my last post and the list from 2016-17.

Speed still draws more penalties in general.

Also again, those players are drawing retaliation penalties which usually don't help the team at all if that means offsetting minor penalties.

Its not just speed only its how that player uses it to their advantage McDavid and Barzal and Ehlers from your list are among the fastest players in the NHL granted, but they also use that speed to take the puck hard to the net and it results in players fouling them on the way in attempts to slow them down or disrupt them.

Players like Marner and Nylander have speed but they don't attack the net nor play in traffic and try to avoid contact where possible using it simply for zone entry and then generate offense from the perimeter which draws limited penalties . This falls under the "playing soft" category despite being skilled and having speed.

Hyman is not as fast nor skilled as his linemates Matthews nor Nylander, but its also not surprising that he draws more penalties because he is willing to engage physically to win puck battles and also not afraid to play in the blue paint and in traffic either which is resulting in drawing more calls.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Kadri diving, Babcock ranting AND the media coverage from the Toronto fishbowl, and variance.

As much as the refs may be butt hurt over Babcock’s comments, the NHL will not want them to try and decide games so if there becomes a strong precedent where they aren’t making calls in favour of the Leafs it will get fixed.

 

[Liminality]

Its not just speed only its how that player uses it to their advantage McDavid and Barzal and Ehlers from your list are among the fastest players in the NHL granted, but they also use that speed to take the puck hard to the net and it results in players fouling them on the way in attempts to slow them down or disrupt them.

Players like Marner and Nylander have speed but they don't attack the net nor play in traffic and try to avoid contact where possible using it simply for zone entry and then generate offense from the perimeter which draws limited penalties . This falls under the "playing soft" category despite being skilled and having speed.

Hyman is not as fast nor skilled as his linemates Matthews nor Nylander, but its also not surprising that he draws more penalties because he is willing to engage physically to win puck battles and also not afraid to play in the blue paint and in traffic either which is resulting in drawing more calls.

If you consider Nylander and Marner soft for only getting .247 and .213 penalties drawn per game, you must think Komarov, Martin and Polak are really soft right?

Komarov
2016-17
0.182 penalties drawn per game

2017-18
.092

Martin
2016-17
.261

2017-18
.120

Polak
2016-17
.078

2017-18
.148

Matthews
2016-17
.261

2017-18
.261

Nylander
2016-17
.08

2017-18
.247

Marner
2016-17
.253

2017-18
.213

Tavares
2016-17
.416

2017-18
.256

 

[Pookie]

Stats from the reverse end

The top 25 players for drawn penalties per game last season.

games played/penalties drawn/penalties drawn per game

MATTHEW TKACHUK

L

68

42

0.618

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

MATHEW BARZAL

C

82

41

0.500

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

KYLE PALMIERI

R

67

31

0.463

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

VINCENT TROCHECK

C

82

38

0.463

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

TOM WILSON

R

99

45

0.455

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

JOHNNY GAUDREAU

L

80

36

0.450

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

CONNOR MCDAVID

C

82

36

0.439

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

NIKITA KUCHEROV

R

97

42

0.433

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

BRAD MARCHAND

L

80

34

0.425

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

NICO HISCHIER

C

87

37

0.425

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

NICK COUSINS

C

71

29

0.408

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

TIMO MEIER

R

91

37

0.407

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

EVGENI MALKIN

C

87

35

0.402

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

RYAN HARTMAN

L

87

35

0.402

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

DAVID PASTRNAK

R

94

36

0.383

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

JAMES NEAL

L

91

33

0.363

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

PATRIC HORNQVIST

R

80

29

0.362

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

RICK NASH

R

83

30

0.361

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

GABRIEL LANDESKOG

L

84

30

0.357

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

TRAVIS KONECNY

C

87

31

0.356

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

DUSTIN BROWN

R

85

30

0.353

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

DAVID PERRON

L

85

30

0.353

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

NAZEM KADRI

C

84

29

0.345

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

TOMAS HERTL

C

89

30

0.337

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

TANNER PEARSON

L

86

29

0.337

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So yes there are a few players known for being a pest or a head hunter that draws reactionary penalties, you'll see that most of the players who draw the most penalties are smaller and or quite fast.

Players who are 6 foot and under in the list. Barzal, Palmieri, Trocheck, Gaudreau, Kucherov, Marchand, Cousins, Meier, Hartman, Pastrnak, Hornqvist, Konecny, Brown, Perron, Kadri.
15 out of 25 players were 6 foot or under, that's 60%.

Not sure why the discussion is changing to size....?

 

[Liminality]

Not sure why the discussion is changing to size....?

Some people think toughness is associated with size. Not changing the discussion whatsoever.

 

[Joey Hoser]

But is not hard to explain why players like Tom Wilson (drew 45 penalties @ .455/g rate) , Matthew Tkachuk (drew 42 penalties @ .618 rate) or Brad Marchand (34 pens @ .425) draw a lot of penalties and its their style of play not their skating speed driving that. IMO

Leafs skilled but fast players draw very few penalties relative to other players in fact all the 3 above managed to draw Matthews (18), Nylander (22), Marner (19) = 59.

So a guy like Tkachuk plays 68 games draws 42 penalties @ .618 rate and all 3 of Leafs amigos combined draw 59 penalties in 246 man games last year. You have to see how style of play as opposed to speed is playing a big factor in that result.

What is going to change this year for Leafs top players and drawing penalties correlation that is at low rates?. If they had a Matt Tkachuk or Tom Wilson I could see how it would increase significantly.

Wilson and Tkachuk had 248 combined PIM last year.

The 3 Leafs you mentioned combined for 48.

But yeah sure, the problem with this Leafs team is definitely guys like Matthews and Marner. We should trade one of them for Tom Wilson amirite?

Some of the shit you come up with man... you don't even think before you post it.

Ugh. I shouldn't have said that. I bet you WOULD trade Marner for Wilson.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Here we have an arbitrary stat. Let us all apply what we criticise about the Leafs play to it to confirm our biases.

 

[Pookie]

That's the type of info I'd really like to get into. Seeing the top teams average age vs the PP opportunities. That's one reason I think of personally, refs don't give our young players the benefit of the doubt.

Last year we were the 11th oldest team in the league. Our PP numbers were better when we were younger.

“The other team that stands out as a surprise to me is the Leafs. The fact they are above average in skater age is remarkable after spending much of last season (2016-17) as the NHL’s youngest team.”

Sizing up the NHL: 2017-18 NHL teams by age, height and...

 

[Liminality]

Last year we were the 11th oldest team in the league. Our PP numbers were better when we were younger.

“The other team that stands out as a surprise to me is the Leafs. The fact they are above average in skater age is remarkable after spending much of last season (2016-17) as the NHL’s youngest team.”

Sizing up the NHL: 2017-18 NHL teams by age, height and...

That's true, thanks for the link. I still think our main stars like Matthews, Nylander and Marner don't get the benefit of the doubt yet when they're so young. I could be way off but I think the refs respect the older, captains around the league and give them a lot of leeway in what they think should be a penalty or not.
I think the jump from 2016-17 can be attributed to picking up Hainsey, Marleau and Moore.

 

[Pookie]

That's true, thanks for the link. I still think our main stars like Matthews, Nylander and Marner don't get the benefit of the doubt yet when they're so young. I could be way off but I think the refs respect the older, captains around the league and give them a lot of leeway in what they think should be a penalty or not.
I think the jump from 2016-17 can be attributed to picking up Hainsey and Marleau.

No worries.

The age jump is definitely attributable to the veteran signings.

You’d expect though that if older gets the benefit, that would have helped. Not reversed the trend.

That said, like “hits”, you may have a point as an average statement. It just doesn’t apply to our team in this circumstance.

 

[Liminality]

No worries.

The age jump is definitely attributable to the veteran signings.

You’d expect though that if older gets the benefit, that would have helped. Not reversed the trend.

That said, like “hits”, you may have a point as an average statement. It just doesn’t apply to our team in this circumstance.

No you're right it's not the end all be all stat to confirm the theory one way or another. I still stand by the opinion but I don't have the necessary time or tools to try and prove it for every case.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Low total power plays + strong power play efficiency = low power play toi.

 

[Mess]

Some people think toughness is associated with size. Not changing the discussion whatsoever.

Why do you think Matt Tkachuk at 6-2/210 lbs draws more penalties/g @ .618 as almost Matthews+Marner+Nylander combined do?

Its not because he is fast and skilled, but rather big, physical, and plays with and edge and agitator style and not afraid to get involved physically.

None of the attributes would attribute to Leafs 3 Amigos, other than Matthews has size but he doesn't use it to play physical and he seldom hits anyone recording only 16 hits last year.

Big heavy teams that play physical like Jets, Nashville, Philly, Boston etc are the ones drawing the most penalties and PP opportunities for their teams so there is some correlation to style of play. IMO

 

[IPS]

Why do you think Matt Tkachuk at 6-2/210 lbs draws more penalties/g @ .618 as almost Matthews+Marner+Nylander combined do?

Its not because he is fast and skilled, but rather big, physical, and plays with and edge and agitator style and not afraid to get involved physically.

None of the attributes would attribute to Leafs 3 Amigos, other than Matthews has size but he doesn't use it to play physical and he seldom hits anyone recording only 16 hits last year.

Big heavy teams that play physical like Jets, Nashville, Philly, Boston etc are the ones drawing the most penalties and PP opportunities for their teams so there is some correlation to style of play. IMO

Matt Tkachuk is one of the most notorious pests in the game right now and also happens to be a young player and has played little games to build his rep. Much like Nazem Kadri in his early days, he didn't rely on speed either to generate penalties.Maybe @Pookie can make himself useful and compile some penalties drawn stats from Kadri during his early years versus his recent years.

And again, you've completely cherry-picked an example instead of acknowledging the aggregate data which favors the notion 100% of speed being more of a culprit for drawing penalties.

 

[Liminality]

Why do you think Matt Tkachuk at 6-2/210 lbs draws more penalties/g @ .618 as almost Matthews+Marner+Nylander combined do?

Its not because he is fast and skilled, but rather big, physical, and plays with and edge and agitator style and not afraid to get involved physically.

None of the attributes would attribute to Leafs 3 Amigos, other than Matthews has size but he doesn't use it to play physical and he seldom hits anyone recording only 16 hits last year.

Big heavy teams that play physical like Jets, Nashville, Philly, Boston etc are the ones drawing the most penalties and PP opportunities for their teams so there is some correlation to style of play. IMO

For sure that's a part of his style. He takes penalties and he draws penalties due to his reckless style.

How did Colorado get #1 in PP opportunities and Tampa #2? You think it was cause they gooned it up?

 

[Oscar Peterson]

For sure that's a part of his style. He takes penalties and he draws penalties due to his reckless style.

How did Colorado get #1 in PP opportunities and Tampa #2? You think it was cause they gooned it up?

Isn't it obvious? Those teams don't employ a roster of only smurfs or employ the 'waterbug' strategy of play.

(sarcasm btw)

 

[jrgtml67]

Many times it was uneven officiating, there were games we didn't hustle therefore no need for oppo to take any. But mostly the first one. I dunno how many times I saw it. The faceoff thing more than once the other team was cheating but we got nabbed for it. One game kadri did it and it was a huge reason we lost.