Why did Oilers give up on J. Schultz again?

[nhlfan9191]

He was a train wreck in Edmonton. End of story. He had to go.

 

[Vagrant]

Gagner was very much the same in Edmonton has he has been everywhere else. Sure he had that hot streak this year but aside from that Edmonton is still some of his best performances. What was really expected of him? More than what he became? Smaller centre who can put up decent points, but not great defensively, that's what he's always been.

Eberle had a poor year this year but previous to that he was a good scoring winger, exactly what he was drafted to be.

Hall was and is a top teir offensive winger which is exactly what he was expected to be when drafted.

RNH has turned into a good solid centre, yeah he didn't show the big point totals but he's become a reliable player, no real issues with him. Mclellan loves the player for what that's worth.

Paajarvi fell on draft day so clearly there were some red flags popping up but his issue was one of not being willing to play hard enough.

Dubnyk started well and lost his confidence and had to re-evaluate himself, hardly a development issue, more of a failing a goalie angle.

Schultz showed flashes of brilliance in Edmonton when he cared to try but like was said, guy quit when the going got tough and that's on him.

Yakupov is the only guy I would argue was ruined by a poor development approach but even then part of the problem is in his own head.

The development was never the problem in Edmonton, it was the team building that was the problem. No young players can do it all on their own, they need a proper and balanced team around them. The guys who didn't develop in Edmonton are the ones that didn't make their effort themselves to be what they could be.

Arguments about development are always tricky because we'll never get to go back in time and see what the players would have been had they been handled differently. It's a bit of a catch 22 in that regard. But we can see in some ways how the decisions that Edmonton has made has compromised other players. Draisaitl is one that is a clear example of a player that overcame the organization's bad developmental decisions to achieve the greatness he was destined for prior to the bumbling developmental path they had him take. Not every player is able to bounce back as effectively as Draisaitl did. There seems to be an excuse associated with every cited example except the commonality that these players were all thrust into an environment that wasn't conducive to their development and some of them far too soon. I don't know how much more direct it can get than former players saying it was simply a terrible environment to grow in. For so many years it was a rudderless ship and accountability was virtually non-existent because from top to bottom, the organization felt no urgency to put together a winning product. If not for the ping pong balls and McDavid, we might still be talking about Edmonton as a dead zone of player development. He brought with him a level of professionalism and talent that commanded reform and it's awesome that the rest of the team really embraced that and decided to move forward. However, it doesn't change history.

Saying that a prospect was developed badly doesn't always mean they turned out to be bad players. It does in some cases, but not all cases. Jordan Eberle is a fantastic example. He's certainly a productive player, but there was a time when Eberle was one of the hottest prospects in hockey. He was a point per game player in his 2nd NHL season and scored 34 goals. But the general apathy that surrounded the team during the dark years was insidious and essentially pulled everyone down to substandard effort level and halted a lot of guys from taking the next step. He's still a valuable NHL player, but it doesn't seem hard to see how all those years sleepwalking through meaningless games likely impacted his habits. I also believe Taylor Hall was destined for absolute greatness and ran into the same issue. He was one of the most accomplished junior players to come through in a while and should be one of the stars of the league at this point. It's not the talent that held him back. I don't think anyone could make a convincing point about that. Are we intended to believe that Edmonton simply got unlucky and drafted mentally weak players year after year after year who defied the odds to become mediocre as relative to their expectations? Same story with RNH. Comes into the league like a bolt of lightning and then degrades season by season into an unspectacular but still useful middle six center. Nail Yakupov. 17 goals in 48 games his rookie season. The pattern seems to be rather obvious as to what's happening here. Justin Schultz. Does it not strike you as somewhat odd that his production this year was almost identical to his prorated production from his rookie season? That's the player that was in there. He was there the whole time. Paajarvi. 35 points as a 19 year old to effectively being considered a bust at 23. I think he's finally starting to undo some of the damage from Edmonton, but he'll never be the player he was supposed to be. Dubnyk leaves Edmonton and literally immediately becomes a Top 3 Vezina candidate for the next several years. After, as you yourself mentioned "started well", in Edmonton.

I understand being a fan of a team and sort of believing that team to be collectively beyond reproach. Especially when things are starting to turn around. However, to ignore the same story that has been on loop for the past decade in Edmonton is just turning a blind eye to the problem. So many players that took to the NHL so well at the outset and then degraded over time suggests that something that was happening in the organization was contributing to this issue. Taylor Hall is on record as essentially saying it was top to bottom apathy and the results align with that sentiment. Is some of that on the players themselves? I would say they certainly take a share. However, if you're not put in position to learn and you're not challenged to be better then how are you supposed to inherently know that there's more to be done? It's like taking the kids with the highest IQs and putting them in a horrible school with horrible leadership and horrible teachers and expecting them to not just maintain but widen the edge they have over their peers. Some of them will by force of will alone, but many of them will regress in such an environment despite their capacity for the work.

The good news is that this period of time seems to be drawing to a close in the McDavid era. Truly transcendent players have a way of raising the bar of everyone around them with their work ethic and dedication to the game. When you see a young player that has generational talent and generational work ethic, you either rise to that challenge or you leave town. McDavid is changing the culture there and it's not just a cute turn of phrase. Hell, Schultz himself is an example of the difference it can make to go from a place with zero structure to a place that is captained by one of the most demanding and talented players in the league. Players unwilling to work to Crosby's standard don't last long in Pittsburgh.

 

[The Noot]

He was an entitled brat in Anaheim and Edmonton. It's that simple.

Whether or not that's still the case, he now has found a position in which he can succeed in Pittsburgh.

 

[lawrence]

he wasn't very good. That said his team wasn't very good either. Sometimes all it takes is a change of scenery.

I'm personally surprised how good he got leaving Edmonton. The same with Dubynk.

Devyn Dubynk , Baertchi, and Shultz among some guys that did much better going to a different team.

 

[Sniper99]

He couldnt live up to the hype of his Wisconsin Badger youtube highlight reels.

 

[Blue Line Turnover]

He gave up completely during his last season here. I've never seen a professional athlete look less interested. He would make idiotic mistakes that directly led to goals against and, in response, it appeared as if he couldn't have cared less

 

[HandshakeLine]

He was a train wreck in Edmonton. End of story. He had to go.

Yeah, sometimes players just need a change in scenery or another team that is a better fit. Schultz was a hot mess in Edmonton, and it wasn't working out for him or the Oilers. Better that they get something out of it and that he can try to jumpstart his game in Pittsburgh.

I don't get why this is so hard for so many people to understand?

 

[KPower]

Can't believe how good he's been in Pittsburgh.

He was horrendous at the end in Edmonton, they had to get rid of him.

 

[missinthejets]

Arguments about development are always tricky because we'll never get to go back in time and see what the players would have been had they been handled differently. It's a bit of a catch 22 in that regard. But we can see in some ways how the decisions that Edmonton has made has compromised other players. Draisaitl is one that is a clear example of a player that overcame the organization's bad developmental decisions to achieve the greatness he was destined for prior to the bumbling developmental path they had him take. Not every player is able to bounce back as effectively as Draisaitl did. There seems to be an excuse associated with every cited example except the commonality that these players were all thrust into an environment that wasn't conducive to their development and some of them far too soon. I don't know how much more direct it can get than former players saying it was simply a terrible environment to grow in. For so many years it was a rudderless ship and accountability was virtually non-existent because from top to bottom, the organization felt no urgency to put together a winning product. If not for the ping pong balls and McDavid, we might still be talking about Edmonton as a dead zone of player development. He brought with him a level of professionalism and talent that commanded reform and it's awesome that the rest of the team really embraced that and decided to move forward. However, it doesn't change history.

Saying that a prospect was developed badly doesn't always mean they turned out to be bad players. It does in some cases, but not all cases. Jordan Eberle is a fantastic example. He's certainly a productive player, but there was a time when Eberle was one of the hottest prospects in hockey. He was a point per game player in his 2nd NHL season and scored 34 goals. But the general apathy that surrounded the team during the dark years was insidious and essentially pulled everyone down to substandard effort level and halted a lot of guys from taking the next step. He's still a valuable NHL player, but it doesn't seem hard to see how all those years sleepwalking through meaningless games likely impacted his habits. I also believe Taylor Hall was destined for absolute greatness and ran into the same issue. He was one of the most accomplished junior players to come through in a while and should be one of the stars of the league at this point. It's not the talent that held him back. I don't think anyone could make a convincing point about that. Are we intended to believe that Edmonton simply got unlucky and drafted mentally weak players year after year after year who defied the odds to become mediocre as relative to their expectations? Same story with RNH. Comes into the league like a bolt of lightning and then degrades season by season into an unspectacular but still useful middle six center. Nail Yakupov. 17 goals in 48 games his rookie season. The pattern seems to be rather obvious as to what's happening here. Justin Schultz. Does it not strike you as somewhat odd that his production this year was almost identical to his prorated production from his rookie season? That's the player that was in there. He was there the whole time. Paajarvi. 35 points as a 19 year old to effectively being considered a bust at 23. I think he's finally starting to undo some of the damage from Edmonton, but he'll never be the player he was supposed to be. Dubnyk leaves Edmonton and literally immediately becomes a Top 3 Vezina candidate for the next several years. After, as you yourself mentioned "started well", in Edmonton.

I understand being a fan of a team and sort of believing that team to be collectively beyond reproach. Especially when things are starting to turn around. However, to ignore the same story that has been on loop for the past decade in Edmonton is just turning a blind eye to the problem. So many players that took to the NHL so well at the outset and then degraded over time suggests that something that was happening in the organization was contributing to this issue. Taylor Hall is on record as essentially saying it was top to bottom apathy and the results align with that sentiment. Is some of that on the players themselves? I would say they certainly take a share. However, if you're not put in position to learn and you're not challenged to be better then how are you supposed to inherently know that there's more to be done? It's like taking the kids with the highest IQs and putting them in a horrible school with horrible leadership and horrible teachers and expecting them to not just maintain but widen the edge they have over their peers. Some of them will by force of will alone, but many of them will regress in such an environment despite their capacity for the work.

The good news is that this period of time seems to be drawing to a close in the McDavid era. Truly transcendent players have a way of raising the bar of everyone around them with their work ethic and dedication to the game. When you see a young player that has generational talent and generational work ethic, you either rise to that challenge or you leave town. McDavid is changing the culture there and it's not just a cute turn of phrase. Hell, Schultz himself is an example of the difference it can make to go from a place with zero structure to a place that is captained by one of the most demanding and talented players in the league. Players unwilling to work to Crosby's standard don't last long in Pittsburgh.

Let's take this Dubnyk quote as the prime example of why you are wrong, he didn't literally leave Edmonton and become a vezina candidate, he left Edmonton and his new teams coaches called his technique horrible, then he went to another team and then he spent time in the AHL and then he realized he needed to change his work habits before going to a new team and rebounding.

See? It's all about how players handle themselves not the bad Oilers development. Dubnyk rested on his laurels after starting well and needed a boot in the ass to get his mojo back. Draisaitl I would say is another example of proper development. Guy wasn't ready and put in the work needed to become a good player. RNH worked to become a reliable 2 way player, he sacrificed offense to do it but he did it and his current coach loves the player and believes the offense is still there. Hall and Eberle are still good offensive player, Eberle had **** shooting percentage this year but that doesn't mean it's the new normal for him, he will bounce back and his numbers will remain good.

Schultz quit on Edmonton, I mean yeah Eakins did no one any favours but lots of other guys rebounded from that, Schultz just gave up and played his way out of the team.

 

[Sky04]

Because they did a terrible job developing him, just like Devan Dubnyk and Nail Yakupov.

Wrong, he knew what he was getting himself into picking Edmonton, he knew he'd be the #1/2 defenseman right off the bat and wanted that role. Too bad he couldn't handle and got wrecked on a nightly basis.

He sucked so bad he got demoted on the Oilers defense - think about that.

 

[OneMoreAstronaut]

If you had watched him at the end of his Edmonton tenure, you wouldn't be asking this question.

 

[end]

Let's take this Dubnyk quote as the prime example of why you are wrong, he didn't literally leave Edmonton and become a vezina candidate, he left Edmonton and his new teams coaches called his technique horrible, then he went to another team and then he spent time in the AHL and then he realized he needed to change his work habits before going to a new team and rebounding.

See? It's all about how players handle themselves not the bad Oilers development.

If the only thing standing between Vezina performances and replacement performances is a comment from a coach, why did it not happen in Edmonton?

 

[Cawz]

He was an entitled brat in Anaheim and Edmonton. It's that simple.

Whether or not that's still the case, he now has found a position in which he can succeed in Pittsburgh.

Yup. This right here.

 

[Cawz]

If the only thing standing between Vezina performances and replacement performances is a comment from a coach, why did it not happen in Edmonton?

Becasue I assume he would have to be exposed if they were going to send him to the AHL.

 

[Soundwave]

If the only thing standing between Vezina performances and replacement performances is a comment from a coach, why did it not happen in Edmonton?

It wasn't the comment, Dubnyk had to put in work and changed many things about his game facing a scenario where he was going to be dumped from the NHL entirely.

If saying "hey man, maybe you should play better" to magically flip a switch from the coach was all it took, lol, I think every team would just say that.

 

[lawrence]

Vancouver was the final runner up for him a few years back.

At the end Vancouver Canucks who a team he was actually following and always talking about during his college years, lost out to Edmonton. Mike gillis did,his best, but did not want to offer a player who was not ready for the NHL, a 1 way contract. He was not ready, they want d him, but didn't think he deserved a one way contract, so,that's why he wasn't very good to even begin with.

Watching him through a rivals point of view, man was he terrible, not sure was it him or,his team, or him overestiming the young group of Edmonton back then, either way I was surprised at how good he actually was when he made his way to Pittsburgh. I was like ok, he said probably just a filler dman and will probably get maybe 6th dman ice time if their are injuries. He actually put his offensive skills to work, his offensive skills that was always there and helped Pittsburgh win a cup.

I think all that was needed was a change of scenery. Devyn dubynk turned it around, Sven baetchi, glad he found a way to make it work in the NHL.

 

[Vagrant]

It wasn't the comment, Dubnyk had to put in work and changed many things about his game facing a scenario where he was going to be dumped from the NHL entirely.

If saying "hey man, maybe you should play better" to magically flip a switch from the coach was all it took, lol, I think every team would just say that.

Again though, why are these things not possible in Edmonton? Why is it so consistent that people need to leave Edmonton to have these realizations?

 

[Sky04]

Again though, why are these things not possible in Edmonton? Why is it so consistent that people need to leave Edmonton to have these realizations?

Hmm maybe it has to do with the support you get playing on the Pengiuns and the wild over the oilers....that hard to realize?

 

[Mrb1p]

I've never seen a guy give up like Schultz did his last few years in EDM. Players who put in an effort but struggle you can forgive. Schultz straight up quit. It was a disgrace to watch.

Watch Pacioretty play in April

 

[Ocoee]

are Sens fans really taking shots at other teams "tanking"? arent they the reason the lottery was put in place? Daigle, Phillips, Bonk, Berard, Yashin....

 

[Vagrant]

Hmm maybe it has to do with the support you get playing on the Pengiuns and the wild over the oilers....that hard to realize?

My question was rhetorical. That was precisely my point.

 

[Cawz]

Again though, why are these things not possible in Edmonton? Why is it so consistent that people need to leave Edmonton to have these realizations?

Why did he not get traded to various teams, demoted to the AHL and watch as his NHL career was slipping away before his eyes while he was with Edmonton? Well, for starters, he couldn’t get traded multiple times while staying with the Oilers…

 

[missinthejets]

If the only thing standing between Vezina performances and replacement performances is a comment from a coach, why did it not happen in Edmonton?

but it wasn't just a comment from a coach, he was property of 3 different NHL teams after Edmonton and before the Wild, including one of them putting him in the AHL. Don't you think going from NHL started to demoted to the AHL is a big reason for a guy to change the way he approaches the game?

If it was as simple as a coach saying "play better" it woulda happened a lot sooner and certainly before he hit the AHL.

 

[HandshakeLine]

are Sens fans really taking shots at other teams "tanking"? arent they the reason the lottery was put in place? Daigle, Phillips, Bonk, Berard, Yashin....

Yes they are, and yes it's hilarious.

 

[oobga]

The biggest mistake was MacT giving him a 300% raise in his 2nd contract and announcing that he had Norris potential after 1.6 seasons of hockey. 1.6 seasons that actually were trending down for Schultz the whole way and his struggles handling top minutes so early were obvious to everyone except MacT. Instantly, he has an AAV that demands he is played high in the lineup (would have regardless since MacT saw him as top pairing already), and he has expectations to be a top guy trying to save a terribly flawed team. It all went how most anyone would expect.

A properly managed team, Schultz gets a ~2M AAV 2 year bridge deal for his 2nd contract, and if he is still struggling along with the team you can still afford to keep him as a 3rd pairing/PP specialist that you hope keeps improving his defensive game.