Why are bad faceoff men used at center?

[crazyhawk]

There's no way to know unless Hayden is given the chance. At least give him 3C and see how he does.

I'm a fan of giving Hayden more of role on the team's top 9 and potentially top 6 down the road a bit. So yes playing 3C is a for me!

 

[piteus]

Yet another stat that Jaeger has walked back previous claims on

While I respect JD's unbridled faith in advanced statistics, his dismissive attidude towards face offs is wrong IMO. Face offs are important ... especially on special teams.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

While I respect JD's unbridled faith in advanced statistics, his dismissive attidude towards face offs is wrong IMO. Face offs are important ... especially on special teams.

Faith is one thing, mocking condescension only to walk his point back later is another.

 

[BobbyJet]

While I respect JD's unbridled faith in advanced statistics, his dismissive attidude towards face offs is wrong IMO. Face offs are important ... especially on special teams.

It's not even debatable.

 

[JaegerDice]

Yet another stat that Jaeger has walked back previous claims on

I don't think 'faceoffs don't matter unless you start scraping the 30% mark' is much of a walk-back, but ok.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

If you really want I can dig up quotes about face offs not mattering at all.

Edit: I always agreed with you that they weren’t as important as some made them out to be, but don’t pretend you weren’t at the other end of that spectrum.

 

[JaegerDice]

If you really want I can dig up quotes about face offs not mattering at all.

Yeah, I probably said that. So faceoffs only matter for the like, 5% of centers in the NHL who lose 30% or so with a significant number of draws taken. I'll accept that walk-back.

Feel free to check that percentage, it's just a guess.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Didn’t just say it. Doubled and tripled down.

 

[JaegerDice]

Didn’t just say it. Doubled and tripled down.

Yeah, that probably happened too.

Faceoffs aren't irrelevant. So I was wrong when I claimed as such. If you get percentages high enough or low enough, they can start to impact possession and goals. I genuinely don't think they're as critical as some fans and media make them out to be.

Ideally you win every draw. Just like ideally you win every single 50/50 puck battle in the flow of play. In both cases, losing one can quickly be counter-acted by winning the next one, and more of the many puck battles that follow than the other guys.

So if Schmaltz is losing a ton of faceoffs but is helping his line and the team win more puck battles or maintain puck possession to such a degree that it counter-acts the faceoff weakness, Q's going to keep throwing him out there. As you said early in the thread, there's more to being a good C than draws.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Yeah, that probably happened too.

Faceoffs aren't irrelevant. So I was wrong when I claimed as such. If you get percentages high enough or low enough, they can start to impact possession and goals. I genuinely don't think they're as critical as some fans and media make them out to be.

Ideally you win every draw. Just like ideally you win every single 50/50 puck battle in the flow of play. In both cases, losing one can quickly be counter-acted by winning the next one, and more of the many puck battles that follow than the other guys.

So if Schmaltz is losing a ton of faceoffs but is helping his line and the team win more puck battles or maintain puck possession to such a degree that it counter-acts the faceoff weakness, he's going to keep throwing him out there. As you said early in the thread, there's more to being a good C than draws.

100% agreed. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

 

[hawksfan50]

Well IF they score 80 points then nobody is going to remember that they are underwater on face offs. ..BUT if they are to face off guys and get only 50-58 point ranger $10.5 then nobody is going to credit them much for being good on draws..

In a perfect world we would like Centre's who get 80 points+ and are top 5 in face offs. .but it ain't a perfect world ....

Thus Toews is now a C because he is good on draws and his former history shows he was good defensively ...but given his lack of comittmemtvto hard defending last season and his decline in offense,maybe he needs to be removed from Centre except for draws and instead asked to play Wong the rest of the time because it is less responsibility on wing ...


Schatz on the other hand stinks at draws yet he may still be ourc2C for Kane on the idea that he can drive the line and elevate offensively in production. ..we will see.

I do not see anyone complain about Braydon Point or Yanni Gourde for Tampa Bay being underc50% on draws. .

So our problem us not our centers losing too many draws (except for Ties) but rather that our Centre "stars" do not put up enough points.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

Well IF they score 80 points then nobody is going to remember that they are underwater on face offs. ..BUT if they are to face off guys and get only 50-58 point ranger $10.5 then nobody is going to credit them much for being good on draws..

In a perfect world we would like Centre's who get 80 points+ and are top 5 in face offs. .but it ain't a perfect world ....

Thus Toews is now a C because he is good on draws and his former history shows he was good defensively ...but given his lack of comittmemtvto hard defending last season and his decline in offense,maybe he needs to be removed from Centre except for draws and instead asked to play Wong the rest of the time because it is less responsibility on wing ...


Schatz on the other hand stinks at draws yet he may still be ourc2C for Kane on the idea that he can drive the line and elevate offensively in production. ..we will see.

I do not see anyone complain about Braydon Point or Yanni Gourde for Tampa Bay being underc50% on draws. .

So our problem us not our centers losing too many draws (except for Ties) but rather that our Centre "stars" do not put up enough points.

Interesting. You’re one of the posters I had in mind when I created this thread. I thought you were opposed to Schmaltz as a center because of his faceoff numbers.

 

[puterwiz53]

I can't see any center reaching 80 points if they can't win faceoffs because they won't have the puck much in order to score. Unable to win faces and the defense unable to defend in their own end leaves very little chance for that line to be productive. Even on the power play you will not be effective if you can't win face offs.

 

[BK]

I can't see any center reaching 80 points if they can't win faceoffs because they won't have the puck much in order to score. Unable to win faces and the defense unable to defend in their own end leaves very little chance for that line to be productive. Even on the power play you will not be effective if you can't win face offs.

Connor David and Kuznetzov beg to differ.

 

[GoldenSeal]

While FOs are a pretty important thing to win on, I'd rather have a Center that can setup a scoring play without hesitation and now we have a couple of those on the roster.

 

[BobbyJet]

If you really want I can dig up quotes about face offs not mattering at all.

Edit: I always agreed with you that they weren’t as important as some made them out to be, but don’t pretend you weren’t at the other end of that spectrum.

Was this directed at me? I hope not.

 

[BK]

Was this directed at me? I hope not.

JD I believe.

 

[Marotte Marauder]

Was this directed at me? I hope not.

I doubt it, we are among the few who understand their importance.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Was this directed at me? I hope not.

Why would you think it was?

 

[BobbyJet]

Why would you think it was?

There was no quote and it immediately followed my post.

Face-off losses at key times are definitely hurting this team, especially hurting the ST's. I find it humorous that stats fanatics look so closely at possession numbers, then turn around and play down or dismiss the importance of an important driver of those numbers.

 

[dk2k]

Because faceoffs don't matter. Don't you even know stats? LOL

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

There was no quote and it immediately followed my post.

Face-off losses at key times are definitely hurting this team, especially hurting the ST's. I find it humorous that stats fanatics look so closely at possession numbers, then turn around and play down or dismiss the importance of an important driver of those numbers.

It didn’t immediately follow your post and the person who it was directed at quoted my post.

 

[RememberTheRoar]

It didn’t immediately follow your post and the person who it was directed at quoted my post.

Probably another case where having someone ignored causes confusion

 

[BobbyJet]

It didn’t immediately follow your post and the person who it was directed at quoted my post.

My ignore list, made it so. No biggie. Just wanted to set record straight.

 

[Blue Liner]

My ignore list, made it so. No biggie. Just wanted to set record straight.

I just ignored people for the first time in the past couple of months and I've experienced the same confusion on occasion. I re-read stuff really good to make sure I'm not mixing stuff up haha.