Why are bad faceoff men used at center?

RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
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Seems like this is a debate I’ve seen play out it several threads, but never fully hashed out. It’s the offseason, and I’d like to see the arguments on both sides of this, especially since it directly impacts the Hawks. To be clear, I’m talking about really bad faceoff guys.

As a few posters have mentioned before, Nick Schmaltz had the league’s worst faceoff percentage, 40.1%, among players who took at least 700 draws in 2017-18. For comparison, Anisimov, who many complained can’t win draws, was at 45.7%.

There are several other centers who are in Schmaltz’ company. Connor McDavid +1.3%, Jack Eichel +1.4%, and Nathan MacKinnon +1.8%.

What is it about these players that makes them better centers than wingers, despite the really bad faceoff percentage? Why is it worth it to accept this level of faceoff inability in order to play these guys at center?

It’s not like playmakers can’t make plays from the wing, Kane and Gaudreau play wing. There has to be something else, and I can’t imagine it’s just team need and forcing guys into the center role.
 
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Kevin Musto

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I don't think Schmaltz is a good center. Not only is he bad at faceoffs, but he also doesn't position himself in the way a center should. He plays more like a winger. There's a lot of responsibilities that a center has and Schmaltz isn't good at it. At least not yet. I don't think we should give up on him at center, but he has a lot of improving to do.
 

RememberTheRoar

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I don't think Schmaltz is a good center. Not only is he bad at faceoffs, but he also doesn't position himself in the way a center should. He plays more like a winger. There's a lot of responsibilities that a center has and Schmaltz isn't good at it. At least not yet. I don't think we should give up on him at center, but he has a lot of improving to do.

Interesting. So for you, not only is he one of the worst faceoff men in the league, but he also doesn’t redeem himself in other ways?
 

puterwiz53

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Winning faceoffs are important. Losing too many faceoffs gives the other team puck control more often. Especially you need to win the faceoffs in your own end. Because the Hawks were terrible at the faceoff dot, they gave up a ton of goals. Centers need to have decent faceoff skills.
 

RememberTheRoar

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Oct 21, 2015
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Winning faceoffs are important. Losing too many faceoffs gives the other team puck control more often. Especially you need to win the faceoffs in your own end. Because the Hawks were terrible at the faceoff dot, they gave up a ton of goals. Centers need to have decent faceoff skills.

So to the questions laid out, why is it worth having terrible faceoff guys play center? What are they doing at that center position that they can’t do on the wing?
 

Marotte Marauder

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Aug 10, 2008
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You are assuming that a team has better face off men that they aren't using. Not sure who those guys are.

Faceoffs are very important, chasing the puck is always a bad situation, especially for a poor retrieval team like Hawks.

The center position allows the most freedom on the ice while requiring the most responsibility. Typically your centers are the smartest, best skating players on the roster (of the forwards).
 

Kevin Musto

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Interesting. So for you, not only is he one of the worst faceoff men in the league, but he also doesn’t redeem himself in other ways?
Just to clarify, I don't think he redeems himself as a center. As a player, Schmaltz is very talented. But he has the tendencies of a winger. He could be converted, but as it stands he doesn't bring to table what someone like Toews does. I think the Hawks will try everything in there power to have him play center because we simply don't have a proper 2C, but it's not an easy position to play. They even tried Kane at center back in the day, but sometimes a winger just needs to stick to the wings. It's quite possible Schmaltz moves back to LW at some point.
 
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RememberTheRoar

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Just to clarify, I don't think he redeems himself as a center. As a player, Schmaltz is very talented. But he has the tendencies of a winger. He could be converted, but as it stands he doesn't bring to table what someone like Toews does. I think the Hawks will try everything in there power to have him play center because we simply don't have a proper 2C, but it's not an easy position to play. They even tried Kane at center back in the day, but sometimes a winger just needs to stick to the wings. It's quite possible Schmaltz moves back to LW at some point.

I feel like this is where they’re making a mistake, and I also see other fans using this claim to justify not putting Schmaltz back with Toews.

Kane doesn’t need a prototypical 2C to succeed. He needs a guy on his line to disrupt the goalie, and a another guy to unleash deadly one-timers when he sets them up. Schmaltz isn’t either of those things, so why are we forcing him into that role?

Since the last Cup, this team has only had a deadly top-6 once, and it was when Schmaltz played with Toews, and Anisimov with Kane.
 

Kevin Musto

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I feel like this is where they’re making a mistake, and I also see other fans using this claim to justify not putting Schmaltz back with Toews.

Kane doesn’t need a prototypical 2C to succeed. He needs a guy on his line to disrupt the goalie, and a another guy to unleash deadly one-timers when he sets them up. Schmaltz isn’t either of those things, so why are we forcing him into that role?

Since the last Cup, this team has only had a deadly top-6 once, and it was when Schmaltz played with Toews, and Anisimov with Kane.
This is why I'm a strong proponent of having Hayden at center. As a winger, Hayden is buried down our logjam of Kane, DeBrincat, Saad, Hinostroza, Sikura,etc. But at Center, there's much more opportunity to thrive since Toews and Anisimov are the only real centers on the team. A top 6 of DeBrincat-Toews-Kane and Schmaltz-Hayden-Saad looks much better to me. Hayden is the kind of guy you want to have at center. He's underutilised right now.
 
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Crow

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I don’t recall seeing Hayden play center. Has he and at what level?

Can he win face offs?
 

BobbyJet

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I don't think Schmaltz is a good center. Not only is he bad at faceoffs, but he also doesn't position himself in the way a center should. He plays more like a winger. There's a lot of responsibilities that a center has and Schmaltz isn't good at it. At least not yet. I don't think we should give up on him at center, but he has a lot of improving to do.

His efficient skating is that of a center. Just needs to work on face-offs (and shooting the puck)
.
 

DPHawk

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Kane doesn’t need a prototypical 2C to succeed. He needs a guy on his line to disrupt the goalie, and a another guy to unleash deadly one-timers when he sets them up. Schmaltz isn’t either of those things, so why are we forcing him into that role?

Since the last Cup, this team has only had a deadly top-6 once, and it was when Schmaltz played with Toews, and Anisimov with Kane.

Kane doesn't need a disrupter in from of the net or a great one-timer, that was a formula that worked with P-Arty but Kane can play with anyone and is best with other skilled/creative players, that is what makes Schmaltz a potential fit and it's part of why people want Kane and Cat on a line. He was leading the Art Ross with Versteeg and Brad Richards and neither of those guys are great snipers or net front guys, also Kane and Sharp never seemed to mesh that well even though Sharp has that great one-timer.
 
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RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
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Kane doesn't need a disrupter in from of the net or a great one-timer, that was a formula that worked with P-Arty but Kane can play with anyone and is best with other skilled/creative players, that is what makes Schmaltz a potential fit and it's part of why people want Kane and Cat on a line. He was leading the Art Ross with Versteeg and Brad Richards and neither of those guys are great snipers or net front guys, also Kane and Sharp never seemed to mesh that well even though Sharp has that great one-timer.

Good points, especially on him playing so well with average players.

What are your thoughts on bad faceoff guys being slotted in a center?
 

DPHawk

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Good points, especially on him playing so well with average players.

What are your thoughts on bad faceoff guys being slotted in a center?

Well it all depends on the situation. As far as Schmaltz, I think there could be some upside to moving him to wing (having more freedom as a backchecker instead of positioning responsibility could be great for him) but plenty of young centermen improve as the dot as they get older so that wouldn't be a reason to move him for me (yet). Shaw and Kruger were bad at faceoffs until they were 23, Schmaltz was only 21 last year.
 
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Kevin Musto

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I know I said I would like Schmaltz on LW and Hayden at C at some point, but I take that back. Next season let's try having BOTH of them as centers. Move Anisimov to 4C.

DeBrincat-Toews-Kane
Saad-Schmaltz-Hinostroza
Kahun/Ejdsell-Hayden-Sikura
Kunitz-Anisimov-Kampf

See if Schmaltz can improve at center, and see if Hayden can be our 3C. If the experiment works out, we'd actually have solid center depth.
 

JaegerDice

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Dec 26, 2014
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Isn’t that true to a certain point? I thought at a certain point, analytics show bad faceoffs actually do hurt a team.

Yeah, once you drop below a certain level they hurt you in terms of possession and start imoacting goals slightly. Like solidly under 40%

The vast majority of centers in the NHL fall within 45-55%, which isn't enough of a gap for significant impact. Good possession teams remain good with relatively poor faceoff numbers , and bad possession teams remain bad with relatively great faceoff numbers.

Schmaltz could stand to improve on faceoffs. But he's only going to improve by taking them.
 

pvr

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This is why I'm a strong proponent of having Hayden at center. As a winger, Hayden is buried down our logjam of Kane, DeBrincat, Saad, Hinostroza, Sikura,etc. But at Center, there's much more opportunity to thrive since Toews and Anisimov are the only real centers on the team. A top 6 of DeBrincat-Toews-Kane and Schmaltz-Hayden-Saad looks much better to me. Hayden is the kind of guy you want to have at center. He's underutilised right now.
Should we make a list of players who are underutilized by Quenneville? Long list, particularly if we add mis-utilized.

A 40% faceoff percentage is a 20% difference in puck possession. Regardless of what JD says, faceoffs are important. Anyone playing the game would rather have the puck from the drop than chase it.

Lose that faceoff starting a powerplay, and 20-30 seconds are gone, and a zone re-entry has to occur. Seems the Hawks were always losing that faceoff last season, and coupled with their poor zone entry, their actual pp time was often cut in half. Particularly bad, given their pathetic pp to begin with.

That said, there’s nobody else ready yet for center duties on the second line unless Hayden makes a leap forward.
 
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Kevin Musto

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Should we make a list of players who are underutilized by Quenneville? Long list, particularly if we add mis-utilized.

A 40% faceoff percentage is a 20% difference in puck possession. Regardless of what JD says, faceoffs are important. Anyone playing the game would rather have the puck from the drop than chase it.

Lose that faceoff starting a powerplay, and 20-30 seconds are gone, and a zone re-entry has to occur. Seems the Hawks were always losing that faceoff last season, and coupled with their poor zone entry, their actual pp time was often cut in half. Particularly bad, given their pathetic pp to begin with.

That said, there’s nobody else ready yet for center duties on the second line unless Hayden makes a leap forward.
There's no way to know unless Hayden is given the chance. At least give him 3C and see how he does.
 
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