Who would you choose at this point. Toronto or Montreal ?

[Boss Man Hughes]

Just because people believe that Toronto won't win the cup, doesn't imply that by default that the Habs then have better odds and will win the cup. Neither will probably win the cup, and as it is now, the Habs have less odds than the Leafs to win the cup. The Habs also have a long way to go and will have a hard time improving to the point where they are better than the Leafs in the regular season.

Of course it does. If you believe the Leafs have a 2-3 year window to win then it's not likely they will win one. Florida, Vegas, Colorado, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Dallas, Carolina are all better than them and most will be for at least 3 years. And most of those teams are willing to go all in at the trade deadline. So the Habs only need to win one Cup in 10 years to be better. They have 4 potential solid goaltenders, depth in d prospects, and depth at forward. They need to dump useless vets and add a top 6 forward or 2 and they should be a strong team for at least years 4-10.

 

[FerrisRox]

1. They traded Sundin for Clark, not Lemieux.

I'm aware of that. And then a year later, they traded Clark for Lemieux.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'm aware of that. And then a year later, they traded Clark for Lemieux.

Right. And by then Sundin had become a star. They wouldn't have needed to give him up to get Lemieux.

 

[HabbyGuy]

Call me crazy, a hab homer, whatever you like, but come playoff time, I'll take Suzuki and Slafkovsky over Matthews and Marner. I really think Slaf is going to be a great playoff performer. It's just in his genetics. Suzuki is the superior leader as well.

There's a reason why HUGO and company look for certain types of players with the proper mental makeup. Our team has way more CHaracter then the Leafs could ever dream to have.

The Leafs can have their regular season overpaid all stars, we'll keep building with the one's who'll give a shit when it matters the most, all at a reasonable cost.

Management is a huge part of the equation to this question, not just talent.

I'd much rather be in MTL's position for the next 10 years starting from today, without hesitation.

Management
Draft Capital
Prospect pipeline
Cap
Character... All heavily swing in the habs favour.

Even with their headstart, when all is said and done, over the next decade, we will have more playoff success than the leafs, you can book it.

Toronto will continue to prove to the world what they've always been, pretenders. It's just who they are.

It's a sinking ship, anyone preferring to jump off ours and climb on it, I wish you well.

Good luck with that..



Go Habs! f*** the Leafs.

 

[Vachon23]

Easily the Leafs

 

[Lshap]

I mean we did compete in the DD era but it was mainly on the back of 5 players, especially Price.

Pretty crazy to prefer the Habs here. Its like people dont learn, somehow the Leafs losing in the PO is a given but the Habs busting prospects isnt.

One has been happening a lot more than the other in the past 30 years.

After 8 years of failure with Matthews/Marner/Nylander, you need a leap of faith to believe the Leafs will finally discover the formula for building a winning team. They've had eight years of elite talent; it's gotten them nowhere. Sure, it's possible everything magically clicks into place, but without top draft picks or existing prospects Toronto isn't adding a Cale Makar any time soon. So Toronto's future relies on tweaking their roster around Matthews/Marner/Nylander and hoping for the best – the same formula they've tried for eight years.

Montreal's future also depends on a leap of faith, but the Habs have much better youth, prospects, and upcoming draft picks to build on than Toronto does. In three years our defence looks MUCH better than Toronto's. Montembeault is already better than anyone on the Leafs. Our offence isn't close to the current Leafs talent, but in a couple of years our core will be much stronger than today while Toronto's may be weaker.

Pointing to Montreal's pathetic drafting/development from a decade ago isn't a legit argument – they're completely different players, coaches, and GM from what we have today. On the other hand, pointing to Toronto's pathetic playoff record is totally legit, since their roster has been orbiting around the same three/four players for many years.

Bottom line: The Leafs remain the stronger team while their stars remain at their peaks and Montreal's core is still developing. Montreal superior youth and incoming prospects begin catching up in a couple of years and very possibly pass Toronto shortly afterwards.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

The argument for people voting for the leafs is that they are a better team right now and they have more high-end players, but for some reason, they neglect the fact that the poll is asking for the next 10 years, and in just 3 years all of the leafs current core players will be 30+ and out of their prime.

In just 3 years:
Matthews and Marner will be 30, Nylander 31, Rielly 33, and Tavares 37.
They also have almost nothing in terms of young players/prospects coming up.

Meanwhile, on the habs, all their players will be in their prime or starting their prime in 3 years:
Suzuki will be 28, Caufield 26, Dach 26, Newhook 26, Guhle 25, Roy 24, Mailloux 24, Slaf 23, Reinbacher 23, Hutson 23, our top 10 pick this year 21, etc.

 

[Goalfield22]

The poll could ask about the last 10 years and my response would be the same: Montreal. That one run to the finals is more than anything the leafs have achieved in the last 50 years.

 

[Sam de Mtl]

Why do some people assume the Leafs have to win in the next 3 years though? Marner/Matthews/Nylander will be good for much longer than that. Tavares is falling, but if anything they will be rid of his contract in 2-3 years and I think their team will actually improve after that. Even if they resign him, it won't be as expensive.

They have done surprisingly well with their very few picks. Knies/Minten/Cowan/Niemela is a decent amount of youth to staple on to their core. They could do okay in the next 5 to 10 years.

That being said, I don't necessarily like their position that much. I think it is entirely possible they will be good, but not quite good enough for the whole time, especially if they keep not figuring out the playoffs game.

Montreal hasn't yet had the same draft luck that Toronto got some years ago to get a real superstar like Matthews or get a Nylander caliber player, but if we get lucky in this draft or our 1st pick becomes a very good offensive player, I like the lineups we can field for the next 15 years better than the Leafs situation.

 

[Mrb1p]

After 8 years of failure with Matthews/Marner/Nylander, you need a leap of faith to believe the Leafs will finally discover the formula for building a winning team. They've had eight years of elite talent; it's gotten them nowhere. Sure, it's possible everything magically clicks into place, but without top draft picks or existing prospects Toronto isn't adding a Cale Makar any time soon. So Toronto's future relies on tweaking their roster around Matthews/Marner/Nylander and hoping for the best – the same formula they've tried for eight years.

Montreal's future also depends on a leap of faith, but the Habs have much better youth, prospects, and upcoming draft picks to build on than Toronto does. In three years our defence looks MUCH better than Toronto's. Montembeault is already better than anyone on the Leafs. Our offence isn't close to the current Leafs talent, but in a couple of years our core will be much stronger than today while Toronto's may be weaker.

Pointing to Montreal's pathetic drafting/development from a decade ago isn't a legit argument – they're completely different players, coaches, and GM from what we have today. On the other hand, pointing to Toronto's pathetic playoff record is totally legit, since their roster has been orbiting around the same three/four players for many years.

Bottom line: The Leafs remain the stronger team while their stars remain at their peaks and Montreal's core is still developing. Montreal superior youth and incoming prospects begin catching up in a couple of years and very possibly pass Toronto shortly afterwards.

Thirteen years.

All the Leafs need is a good stretch of 10 games.

Why do some people assume the Leafs have to win in the next 3 years though? Marner/Matthews/Nylander will be good for much longer than that. Tavares is falling, but if anything they will be rid of his contract in 2-3 years and I think their team will actually improve after that. Even if they resign him, it won't be as expensive.

They have done surprisingly well with their very few picks. Knies/Minten/Cowan/Niemela is a decent amount of youth to staple on to their core. They could do okay in the next 5 to 10 years.

That being said, I don't necessarily like their position that much. I think it is entirely possible they will be good, but not quite good enough for the whole time, especially if they keep not figuring out the playoffs game.

Montreal hasn't yet had the same draft luck that Toronto got some years ago to get a real superstar like Matthews or get a Nylander caliber player, but if we get lucky in this draft or our 1st pick becomes a very good offensive player, I like the lineups we can field for the next 15 years better than the Leafs situation.

Matthews is two years older than Nick Suzuki, somehow one is a "young developping forward" and the other is one the down swing.

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

Thirteen years.

All the Leafs need is a good stretch of 10 games.

That can be said for literally any team that makes the playoffs.

Bergevin's quote “Once you get into the playoffs anything can happen.” is the exact same idea.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

View attachment 834562

Thirteen years.

All the Leafs need is a good stretch of 10 games.


Matthews is two years older than Nick Suzuki, somehow one is a "young developping forward" and the other is one the down swing.

Why do you keep posting things no one said? Nobody has said Matthews will be on the down side. It's the rest of the team that is not good enough to win the Cup. Goaltending is mediocre unless Woll develops. Defense is old and mediocre except for Reilly. If Marner shows up in the playoffs and Bertuzzi and Domi do something they have a chance. They don't have much to trade for help if the team isn't good enough. Cowan, Minten (nothing special), Niemela (nothing special) and draft picks. But I don't see them winning against Boston, Vancouver, Florida for the next few years.

 

[Mrb1p]

Why do you keep posting things no one said? Nobody has said Matthews will be on the down side. It's the rest of the team that is not good enough to win the Cup. Goaltending is mediocre unless Woll develops. Defense is old and mediocre except for Reilly. If Marner shows up in the playoffs and Bertuzzi and Domi do something they have a chance. They don't have much to trade for help if the team isn't good enough. Cowan, Minten (nothing special), Niemela (nothing special) and draft picks. But I don't see them winning against Boston, Vancouver, Florida for the next few years.

Doesn't matter if they nothing special, they don't need special, they need depth and good players becasue they already have special players. Its pretty clear when you take an unbiased look.

That can be said for literally any team that makes the playoffs.

Bergevin's quote “Once you get into the playoffs anything can happen.” is the exact same idea.

He wasn't wrong on this, as we've seen. He had an elite level player and its true that he was good enough to carry you.

The problem with that statement is that Bergevin never traded a first for a player, he never really spent money on actual good UFAs, he never used prospects to get better players and he missed the POs four times out of nine seasons (Im not giving him the play-ins, I don't give a f***, he wasn't making the POs.)

The Leafs have spent assets and they've been in the playoffs for 8 years running.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Doesn't matter if they nothing special, they don't need special, they need depth and good players becasue they already have special players. Its pretty clear when you take an unbiased look.


He wasn't wrong on this, as we've seen. He had an elite level player and its true that he was good enough to carry you.

The problem with that statement is that Bergevin never traded a first for a player, he never really spent money on actual good UFAs, he never used prospects to get better players and he missed the POs four times out of nine seasons (Im not giving him the play-ins, I don't give a f***, he wasn't making the POs.)

The Leafs have spent assets and they've been in the playoffs for 8 years running.

Agreed on all those points. So far the Leafs haven't been willing to go all in to win a Cup or they added the wrong parts. They should have payed up for a goaltender. Could be because Rogers is happy and consider it more profitable to just make the playoffs if that keeps the fans on board. If they do add the right players in the next 2 or 3 years they have a chance to go all the way.

 

[Lshap]

View attachment 834562

Thirteen years.

All the Leafs need is a good stretch of 10 games.

The Caps had a much more balanced roster than the Leafs. Their D was much more solid and their goalie MUCH better than Toronto's. They added key players through the draft (Kuznetzov and Wilson) and through trades (Oshie and Eller). Yet it STILL took them years to win.

Toronto bet everything on its 3.5 star forwards. That top-heavy formula looked like it might payoff a few years ago, but after 8 years of futility it's looking like Leafs management gambled and lost. Yes, they could still go on a playoff run, but they'd need to get really lucky.

The Habs would also have to be lucky for their young core to develop into a top roster. But which team is more likely to do something it's never done – the young, developing core or the long-established core?

 

[RealityBytes]

Of course it does. If you believe the Leafs have a 2-3 year window to win then it's not likely they will win one. Florida, Vegas, Colorado, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Dallas, Carolina are all better than them and most will be for at least 3 years. And most of those teams are willing to go all in at the trade deadline. So the Habs only need to win one Cup in 10 years to be better. They have 4 potential solid goaltenders, depth in d prospects, and depth at forward. They need to dump useless vets and add a top 6 forward or 2 and they should be a strong team for at least years 4-10.

LOL. You might want to rethink your odds of winning a cup. It helps if there is one less team in the running, but a negative of one team not winning does not guarantee another particular team will win the cup.

 

[JianYang]

Just because people believe that Toronto won't win the cup, doesn't imply that by default that the Habs then have better odds and will win the cup. Neither will probably win the cup, and as it is now, the Habs have less odds than the Leafs to win the cup. The Habs also have a long way to go and will have a hard time improving to the point where they are better than the Leafs in the regular season.

Well, it's a comparison of two teams on the opposite ends of the compeitive cycle.

One time is trying to build itself up, and is pretty much 2 years removed from rock bottom. The other team is at the top of the cycle and has done diddly squat for the entire window to date.

If people still believe that this Toronto core will lift the team to new heights, then the answer is easy.

However, if you have lost hope with the Toronto core, then the idea becomes that they have to wait to come down on their cycle, and then build it back up again which means alot more time. In this scenario the answer becomes muddier.

 

[dcyhabs]

The argument for people voting for the leafs is that they are a better team right now and they have more high-end players, but for some reason, they neglect the fact that the poll is asking for the next 10 years, and in just 3 years all of the leafs current core players will be 30+ and out of their prime.

In just 3 years:
Matthews and Marner will be 30, Nylander 31, Rielly 33, and Tavares 37.
They also have almost nothing in terms of young players/prospects coming up.

Meanwhile, on the habs, all their players will be in their prime or starting their prime in 3 years:
Suzuki will be 28, Caufield 26, Dach 26, Newhook 26, Guhle 25, Roy 24, Mailloux 24, Slaf 23, Reinbacher 23, Hutson 23, our top 10 pick this year 21, etc.

The main problem is that pretty much all of the Leafs' top players have nmcs, and even most of the lower players have some trade protection. The Leafs had a pretty obvious way forward: trade the worst fit of their top 4 for depth, toughness, and cap space. With the nmcs, that they are reluctant to go back on, they have to hope they can change the attitude of the dressing room with existing limitations.

The Leafs have done pretty well with their few high picks. Knies is a pretty good second rounder, and their top picks in the last couple of years have been pretty good considering how late those picks were.

It looks like Rielly is desperately trying to convince people that he cares and that he's tough. He's doing it wrong, but he's trying. Most of the top guys aren't exactly playoff guys, but you might be able to put a tough guy or two in the top six and balance out if you can find/afford them. It really looks like a room/chemistry problem at this point. The playoff failures were just so abjectly, embarassingly bad. Some teams just figure it out at some point, though, it could happen.

The habs have lots of depth coming up. They'll have a logjam at most positions, and that is a good thing. The questions are whether any of those players will be top line/top pairing, and whether any of them will have trade value once waivers are a problem. The habs will likely be at least a bubble team in a couple of years, but there is no certainty that they will be more than that. Pretty much all the prospects coming up have either significant flaws or questionable ceilings. They may just end up feeding the rest of the league middle six/middle pairing players cheap.

There is a very good chance that it's a push, nil nil draw in number of cups won over 10 years.

 

[RealityBytes]

Well, it's a comparison of two teams on the opposite ends of the compeitive cycle.

One time is trying to build itself up, and is pretty much 2 years removed from rock bottom. The other team is at the top of the cycle and has done diddly squat for the entire window to date.

If people still believe that this Toronto core will lift the team to new heights, then the answer is easy.

However, if you have lost hope with the Toronto core, then the idea becomes that they have to wait to come down on their cycle, and then build it back up again which means alot more time. In this scenario the answer becomes muddier.

All I am saying is that there is no guarantee that Montreal will win a cup if Toronto doesn't.

 

[jellybeans]

Why do you keep posting things no one said? Nobody has said Matthews will be on the down side. It's the rest of the team that is not good enough to win the Cup. Goaltending is mediocre unless Woll develops. Defense is old and mediocre except for Reilly. If Marner shows up in the playoffs and Bertuzzi and Domi do something they have a chance. They don't have much to trade for help if the team isn't good enough. Cowan, Minten (nothing special), Niemela (nothing special) and draft picks. But I don't see them winning against Boston, Vancouver, Florida for the next few years.

ADHD

 

[Miller Time]

All I am saying is that there is no guarantee that Montreal will win a cup if Toronto doesn't.

In a 32 team league with 20+ teams that haven't won a cup in decades, isn't that obvious enough to not require stating

 

[Vachon23]

The main problem is that pretty much all of the Leafs' top players have nmcs, and even most of the lower players have some trade protection. The Leafs had a pretty obvious way forward: trade the worst fit of their top 4 for depth, toughness, and cap space. With the nmcs, that they are reluctant to go back on, they have to hope they can change the attitude of the dressing room with existing limitations.

The Leafs have done pretty well with their few high picks. Knies is a pretty good second rounder, and their top picks in the last couple of years have been pretty good considering how late those picks were.

It looks like Rielly is desperately trying to convince people that he cares and that he's tough. He's doing it wrong, but he's trying. Most of the top guys aren't exactly playoff guys, but you might be able to put a tough guy or two in the top six and balance out if you can find/afford them. It really looks like a room/chemistry problem at this point. The playoff failures were just so abjectly, embarassingly bad. Some teams just figure it out at some point, though, it could happen.

The habs have lots of depth coming up. They'll have a logjam at most positions, and that is a good thing. The questions are whether any of those players will be top line/top pairing, and whether any of them will have trade value once waivers are a problem. The habs will likely be at least a bubble team in a couple of years, but there is no certainty that they will be more than that. Pretty much all the prospects coming up have either significant flaws or questionable ceilings. They may just end up feeding the rest of the league middle six/middle pairing players cheap.

There is a very good chance that it's a push, nil nil draw in number of cups won over 10 years.

Easier to find depth then to find player of Matthews and Marner caliber

 

[WeThreeKings]

Easier to find depth then to find player of Matthews and Marner caliber

Hard to get and keep good depth when those players don't perform when it matters and maximize their earnings every time and can't be moved because of NMC negotiated into already bad AAV/term contracts.

Seriously, take a look at the Leafs cap situation, it's an absolute nightmare. The Leafs are a really sexy house you look at when you drive by, but when you do the open house, you realize there are more problems than is worth the investment.

 

[Vachon23]

Hard to get and keep good depth when those players don't perform when it matters and maximize their earnings every time and can't be moved because of NMC negotiated into already bad AAV/term contracts.

Seriously, take a look at the Leafs cap situation, it's an absolute nightmare. The Leafs are a really sexy house you look at when you drive by, but when you do the open house, you realize there are more problems than is worth the investment.

It only take 1 year where they are in fire like WSH did in 2019.

And it’s not like if we were NJ with some young elite players coming and a franchise player. For now, I don’t see us being more than a mid team.

I don’t think Toronto are in a that good situation, but where not in a better situation then us since I don’t see un being a real contender in a near future except if we win the lottery

 

[RealityBytes]

In a 32 team league with 20+ teams that haven't won a cup in decades, isn't that obvious enough to not require stating

To me it is, but some posters think different in that if Toronto doesn't win a cup, then Montreal surely will. Go figure.