Who would you choose at this point. Toronto or Montreal ?

[dcyhabs]

I said Montreal earlier because Toronto just isn't built for the playoffs at all. It would have been relatively easy to fix not long ago, trade one of their stars for effort/leadership players and cap space, but pretty much everyone on the team has an nmc now.

The Leafs don't need to add talent, they just need a better and more motivated supporting cast plus someone who can get their top guys to do what they need to in the playoffs. They need a coach, or a dressing room player, who can get their best players to play the way they need to. Someone who can convince Reilly that tough isn't crosschecking a guy in the head from behind after he scores on you, it's someone who can play hard all game and help his team win. Someone who can convince the top line that it's worth taking the abuse in the playoffs to get the looks they needed during the season.

It's tough to change team culture, but it's tough to acquire star players, too.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Make the votes public so I know who to block

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

The time for the Leafs to go all-in should be now, instead they had a Bergevin like trade deadline where they traded mid-round picks for a bunch of mid players who don't move the needle. Boston has a team better built for the playoffs so they are likely in for another first round exit.

Next year they have like $20M to spend to sign 10 guys including Liljegran and 3 D, a goalie, replacements for Bertuzzi/Domi. Their prospects are mediocre at best and their draft capital the next 3 years is hilarious so it is going to be hard for them to improve.

The Habs have a solid young core to build around, will have another top 10 pick this year and a ton of picks that they could use for another Dach/Newhook trade. After next season they'll have Armia/Dvorak and Petry/Allen's cap hits off the book so they'll be in a very good spot cap wise as well.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

All it takes for Toronto is literally one run, one run that we're far away from at this point.

This is ridiculous. The answer is clearly Toronto.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

You saying their cup window si slammed shut when AM, Marner and Nylander are 26, 26 & 27 is definitely one of the takes I've seen on HF.

It's a bonkers and stupid take based on nothing but his emotions.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Voting for Montreal is CRAZYYYYYYYYYYY

This is the same fanbase that thought the DD Pacio era was so called *competing* so I'm not suprised. Also the same fanbase that was vocal about cole scoring 50 goals

Can't take yall seriously

 

[Mrb1p]

Voting for Montreal is CRAZYYYYYYYYYYY

This is the same fanbase that thought the DD Pacio era was so called *competing* so I'm not suprised. Also the same fanbase that was vocal about cole scoring 50 goals

Can't take yall seriously

I mean we did compete in the DD era but it was mainly on the back of 5 players, especially Price.

Pretty crazy to prefer the Habs here. Its like people dont learn, somehow the Leafs losing in the PO is a given but the Habs busting prospects isnt.

One has been happening a lot more than the other in the past 30 years.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

I mean we did compete in the DD era but it was mainly on the back of 5 players, especially Price.

Pretty crazy to prefer the Habs here. Its like people dont learn, somehow the Leafs losing in the PO is a given but the Habs busting prospects isnt.

One has been happening a lot more than the other in the past 30 years.

I guess 10 years is a long time , the argument for the habs is that people don't think toronto will win in the next 5 years so habs will have a better chance after that if their window closes and ours opens, I'm the biggest maple leafs hater in the world too and i couldn't even vote against them here

 

[Mrb1p]

I guess 10 years is a long time , the argument for the habs is that people don't think toronto will win in the next 5 years so habs will have a better chance after that if their window closes and ours opens, I'm the biggest maple leafs hater in the world too and i couldn't even vote against them here

If theres one thing i hate more than rival teams, its my own. Been sucking for so long its astounding were still that positive.

 

[The Great Weal]

No point comparing them at this stage but:

MTL better:
Defence
Coaching
Management

TOR better:
Forwards / elite talent
perhaps better drafting?

Toronto window is still open for like 5 years or something so they still have a shot to win.
We still need some top end pieces before we even talk about being a contender.

You can add goaltending for Montreal too. That being said elite talent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything else.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

They need more than "a strong blue liner." They most definitely need a goaltender; they definitely need, at minimum, two solid defenseman who have the ability to wear down their opponents and have the ability to make the opposition think twice about heading to the front of the net and they need D-men that actually win one-on-one battles on the boards and in the corners. Because they lack physicality on their blue line, many teams (the Canadiens among them) targeted this in the playoffs and would simply dump into a corner where they know they were either going to physically punish an undersized defenseman or they were going to make that player pull up short to avoid contact. The Canadiens ruthlessly targeted Rasmus Sandin in this way during the playoff matchup between the Canadiens and the Leafs.

What compounds their issues is the problem they have with their defence being way too easy to play against mirrors itself up front. They simply aren't constructed to handle bigger teams that play any kind of physical style. Not only are the Leafs unable to dish out physical play and wear down their opponents over a series, but they also can't withstand it, either. Too many of their important players are obviously adverse to physical play and they just fade away when the games matter.

I have watched an awful lot of that Maple Leafs team with current core and it's painfully obvious they aren't a "tweak" away from anything.

This Leafs team needs to do what that Quebec Nordiques/Colorado Avalanche did in the mid 90's and figure out that it's not enough to have "good" players, but you need to have the right mix of guys and skillsets to win and the Leafs obviously do not.

The Nordiques traded away *three* first overall draft picks in order to re-build the core into a team that could win.

Mats Sundin was dealt to make the team more more difficult to play against and was turned into Claude Lemieux and Sylvian Lefevbre. Eric Lindros was moved in a trade that gave him them a playoff warrior two-way forward in Peter Forsberg, a sorely-needed goaltender in Ron Hextall and an offensive defenseman in Steve Duchene (who was then flipped for more grit and depth in Garth Butcher, Ron Sutter and Bob Bassen) and they moved Owen Nolan for a high end offensive defenseman to feed all that talent up front in Sandis Ozolnish.

These were big, bold, risky transactions to re-shape a roster that they didn't believe could win and turn it into something that could.

If they just sat around "tweaking" all the depth pieces they would have just spun their wheels until the core got too expensive.

Yeah I agree. They need a different dimension.

Still, there’s a lot of talent there. They might pull it off regardless. We’ll see.

Sidenote, that Sundin trade was a terrible move for the Nords but I agree with your general point.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Virgin Leafs doesn't compare to Chad Habs

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Matthews is already one of those guys, and the point was about stagnation. The narrative around the Avs back then was a lot like what we see of Buffalo.

It doesnt matter if you cherry pick examples, the point is losers are losers until they win, and in general it rarely happens that a team doesnt win when they have players like AM WN and MM. All it takes is a hot goaltender and these guys have a one way ticket. (Same as Edmonton). On top of that, the Habs had Price in 2017, not the same make up on our side either, it just matters that we overrate our team and especially future assets A LOT.

Rarity is irrelevant. We are looking at a particular team. Yes they should be able to win with the big 4 but they won't unless they add the right parts. Avs added Lehkonen and others. Tampa trade for pieces important to their wins. Toronto refuses to even trade a late 1st in a weak draft. They aren't going to win anything. Habs easily have the better chance in the last half of the 10 year period.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

Montreal because they have promise. Toronto ruined their rebuild with the Tavares signing.

Tavares is signed for one more season after this one, at 11M
Anderson and Gallagher are signed three more season at 12M.

Everyone has bad contracts. But I'd get rid of Anderson and Gallagher for Tavares, who just bitchslapped us, any day, any f***ing time.

 

[Tabarouette]

No point comparing them at this stage but:

MTL better:
Defence
Coaching
Management

TOR better:
Forwards / elite talent
perhaps better drafting?

Toronto window is still open for like 5 years or something so they still have a shot to win.
We still need some top end pieces before we even talk about being a contender.

I understand that Toronto doesn't have the best defense in the league, they're pretty poor actually, but by almost all metrics I can find we're worst than them defensively so idk how you can come up with this

we're very, very bad defensively, like abysmal bad

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Tavares is signed for one more season after this one, at 11M
Anderson and Gallagher are signed three more season at 12M.

Everyone has bad contracts. But I'd get rid of Anderson and Gallagher for Tavares, who just bitchslapped us, any day, any f***ing time.

You forgot to mention a very important detail. Toronto is current in their competitive window for a Stanley Cup. They have no future, only the present. The Habs wasting cap space and then wasting cap space is not at all the same. Even if Habs come competitive with 1-2 years left on both their contracts, it's much easier to deal with a short term cap problem than Tavares when he first signed because that's where the comparison starts. Habs in the near future with the leafs when they started competing

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

It's a bonkers and stupid take based on nothing but his emotions.

Yours is ridiculous. The window has about 2 years left for the Leafs. Their goalies are mediocre to shit. Their defense is old and bad. If McDavid and Draisaitl can't drag the Oilers to a Cup with a better supporting cast the big 4 aren't going to. Habs have a 5-7 year window coming up and one of the best management teams in the NHL. Even if Leafs win one Cup there is good chance Habs win more than one in 10 years.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

I understand that Toronto doesn't have the best defense in the league, they're pretty poor actually, but by almost all metrics I can find we're worst than them defensively so idk how you can come up with this

we're very, very bad defensively, like abysmal bad

I understand that Toronto doesn't have the best defense in the league, they're pretty poor actually, but by almost all metrics I can find we're worst than them defensively so idk how you can come up with this

we're very, very bad defensively, like abysmal bad

No Habs aren't abysmally bad. They aren't good but mot of their d are still on a learning curve. They will be far better than the Leafs in 3 years at the latest.
Leafs have NO d prospects, are too cheap to acquire one, and no draft choices to get one.

 

[Mrb1p]

I understand that Toronto doesn't have the best defense in the league, they're pretty poor actually, but by almost all metrics I can find we're worst than them defensively so idk how you can come up with this

we're very, very bad defensively, like abysmal bad

People talking bout funking Rielly when this team has funking Matheson playing 28 minutes a night.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

People talking bout funking Rielly when this team has funking Matheson playing 28 minutes a night.

Matheson is a far better offensive defenseman. Reilly usually refuses to shoot. And Reilly is a -2 on a good team. Reilly is probably better defensivley and Matheson is more useful offensively.
And when we say bad d it's the rest of the Leafs defense that is bad.

 

[Jee]

No Habs aren't abysmally bad. They aren't good but mot of their d are still on a learning curve. They will be far better than the Leafs in 3 years at the latest.
Leafs have NO d prospects, are too cheap to acquire one, and no draft choices to get one.

Mike Matheson is our #1 D, let that sink in.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Yours is ridiculous. The window has about 2 years left for the Leafs. Their goalies are mediocre to shit. Their defense is old and bad. If McDavid and Draisaitl can't drag the Oilers to a Cup with a better supporting cast the big 4 aren't going to. Habs have a 5-7 year window coming up and one of the best management teams in the NHL. Even if Leafs win one Cup there is good chance Habs win more than one in 10 years.

Toronto has three players that can hit 100 points signed long-term in the middle of their prime.

A goalie can be gotten.

They clearly have and have had their issues but let's get real here. There's nothing that screams Montreal as an easier pick for the Cup over the next ten years above Toronto right now. Even if you think Toronto might not win it all, as of today, their chances are clearly higher to do and they have the better pieces to do it as of today.

 

[RealityBytes]

Just because people believe that Toronto won't win the cup, doesn't imply that by default that the Habs then have better odds and will win the cup. Neither will probably win the cup, and as it is now, the Habs have less odds than the Leafs to win the cup. The Habs also have a long way to go and will have a hard time improving to the point where they are better than the Leafs in the regular season.

 

[FerrisRox]

Sidenote, that Sundin trade was a terrible move for the Nords but I agree with your general point.

They don't win the Stanley Cup in 1996 without that trade.

Turning Sundin into Sylvain Lefevbre and Claude Lemieux was huge for that team. Lefevbre and Lemieux both played critical roles in the 1996 championship.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

They don't win the Stanley Cup in 1996 without that trade.

Turning Sundin into Sylvain Lefevbre and Claude Lemieux was huge for that team. Lefevbre and Lemieux both played critical roles in the 1996 championship.

1. They traded Sundin for Clark, not Lemieux.
2. If they wanted Claude Lemieux it would not have cost them Sundin. Same result
3. Sundin was a dominant player into the late 2000s. They very likely would've won some more cups.