Speculation: Who will we draft with #4? Part II

[Purity*]

I see Marner fans stating Marner is better than Strome and it isn't close. I think this is silly considering Strome is ahead of Marner on Bob Mckenzie's list, ISS, CSB and Future Considerations draft rankings for those that follow these publications.

As for my statement, I stand by it. Contrary to belief, Marner is not in a different league than Strome.

Now either his fans are wrong. Or all the people that assemble the various publications are wrong. You tell me? Marner is better than Strome and its not close?

Most sane fans will agree the margin is thin from 4-6, including Crouse. The only fans that are saying it is not close are the Marner fans. I don't see this from the Strome or Crouse fans. So either Bob Mckenzie's list, ISS, CSB and Future Considerations are all wrong, or Marner's fans are overrating their favourite player. You tell me…

Now this I can definitely agree with. Marner only edges those players out by slight margins.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Once again, average size is 203.7.

According to NHL.com, atleast half of the players you listed are around that weight and under.

Average-sized team.

Are they a team of smurfs? **** no, I never said that. Are they a "big" team? No, they aren't. Did I say that a team full of smurfs can win a cup? No, I didn't. Why do I have to show you that? These arguing tactics get extremely old.

Bam, you're wrong.

Now we are getting somewhere, you are almost there. You have admitted Chicago is not a team of smurfs.

And yet you say you can win with a team of smaller players(smurfs) Can you prove this? That's all I am asking. You cited Detroit. This is your shining example. The one team to the 6 I posted that won with size and skill. Here was their team when they won it.

Is this a team with a plethora of smaller players?

Zettercerg 195
Datsyuk 194
Lidstrom 190
Ralfalski 200
Cleary 208
Hudler 186
Holmstrom 198
Samuelsson 218
Franzen 222
Filppula 195
Kronwall 192
Draper 190
Maltby 200
Stuart 215
Drake 185
Lebda 195

 

[Purity*]

Now we are getting somewhere, you are almost there. You have admitted Chicago is not a team of smurfs.

And yet you say you can win with a team of smaller players(smurfs) Can you prove this? That's all I am asking. You cited Detroit. This is your shining example. We know this. Here was their team when they won it.

Is this team a plethora of smaller players?

Zettercerg 195
Datsyuk 194
Lidstrom 190
Ralfalski 200
Cleary 208
Hudler 186
Holmstrom 198
Samuelsson 218
Franzen 222
Filppula 195
Kronwall 192
Draper 190
Maltby 200
Stuart 215
Drake 185
Lebda 195

You seriously need to stop putting words in my mouth. I did not say Chicago was a team full of smurfs, I did not say you could win a cup with a team full of smurfs, and I did not say Detroit is a team full of smurfs.

Look at the ****ing link, it shows that Chicago is an AVERAGE-SIZED TEAM when they won the cup in 2013.

There is seriously NOTHING left to argue with here.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Agreed with skill and body. I question his attitude and compete level on the ice. I see this as a chance to draft a huge character player with a high compete level and who has too much skill to pass on. I just don't see Strome developing that next gear. Maybe it's my bias from watching the Leafs core too long, but hoping that a player wants to do more than just get by purely on skill will always leave you disappointed. A player like Marner can set the tone for your forwards, lead by example and wear a letter when the time comes.

That is what separates Marner from Strome for me. That's why I'd rather draft Hanifin (who I haven't watched, just going by draft/scouting reports) or Marner. The Leafs are more than a #1 center away from competing, they've got a huge hole in the leadership and compete department, and I don't think Strome will develop into the player to address that.

It's far too early to tell on the leadership front. By most accounts he's a good kid/teammate and has no issues with any of that. He'll likely get a letter(full time) when he goes back to Erie next season. I'm not sure why this get brought up has an issue. Perhaps it's because he's not the most accomplished skater currently, But I'm not as concerned with that at this point.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Now this I can definitely agree with. Marner only edges those players out by slight margins.

I always said the margins from 4-10 were tight. Hanifin is a clear #3 to me. No one of Strome's backers I have read have said he is by far better than Marner. And really this Strome-Marner debate is silly since I like Crouse, Zacha, and Werenski also. Infact I like the entire top 10 on my list. I don't think there is a wide margin from 4 to 10.

4-Strome
5-Zacha
6-Crouse
7-Marner
8-Werenski
9-Provorov
10-Barzal

 

[Semantics]

That is what separates Marner from Strome for me. That's why I'd rather draft Hanifin (who I haven't watched, just going by draft/scouting reports) or Marner. The Leafs are more than a #1 center away from competing, they've got a huge hole in the leadership and compete department, and I don't think Strome will develop into the player to address that.

To be fair, Strome has been praised for his leadership, the fact he plays a more passive style on the ice doesn't necessarily mean he's not a leader. But otherwise, I agree, you have to think about the type of player you need to win, and yeah you need size, but you also need game breakers.

Strome is a player I see as one who will take what's given to him, but for the most part play a more passive and conservative game. I see him as a guy who will rely on the PP a lot for his point production, and be a low GF low GA type player (for a 1st liner) at 5v5. I think his 5v5 play at the pro level will hinge a lot on how good he is defensively, and whether he's paired with wingers who are good puck retrievers.

Marner is more forceful and versatile IMHO, he can be the guy who hangs back or the guy who goes and gets the puck, he causes more turnovers, he attacks the net more and spends less time on the perimeter. The way I see it, in a tight checking game Marner's more likely to create something out of nothing. And I think he's a guy who can play with any type of linemate. He won't be as good at winning board battles or faceoffs, but I feel like it's easier to get big not necessarily fast wingers (e.g. Modin, Ponikarovski) to do that job than it is to get the speedy puck retrievers Strome will need.

Anyway, both good players, but I think Marner's a little more likely to be a stud. It's a shame we haven't been able to see him play in so long - I remember being blown away at how dangerous he was almost every shift, but watching Strome live having not seen Marner in 3+ weeks kind of messes with perspective as far as comparing them.

 

[Rare Jewel]

WEAKNESS LIKE JOHNNY T

When it comes to improving his game, Dylan Strome is hearing the same assessment from scouts that John Tavares did years earlier, that his skating needs work.

So that's exactly what he's doing.

Since the age of 13, Strome has spent his summers working with former Toronto Maple Leafs skating coach Dawn Braid, whose sessions with Tavares have helped the Islanders captain become one of the quicker players in the NHL.

Given Strome's relentless work ethic, Joe Thornton-like on-ice vision, outstanding playmaking skills and underrated shot, Erie Otters coach Kris Knoblauch is confident there will come a time in the not-so-distant future when he achieves elite status in the pros as well.

"He has to be faster to play at the next level," Knoblauch said. "For him to be dangerous and garner attention, he has to have that threat of getting inside to the net. And he'll have trouble doing that until he gets faster."

At 6-foot-3 and 187 pounds, Strome is still growing.

"I have no doubts that he will get faster," Knoblauch said. "Seventeen-year-old tall lanky guys just don't skate as well at that point of their development as the small younger guys. It's part of the changes to their bodies. But Dylan, in two or three years, he'll be an NHL calibre skater and he'll be a dominant player at that next level."

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/04/07/dylan-strome-says-affection-shown-by-leaf-fans-is-flattering

 

[Semantics]

And by my count these are the players Chicago won their 2 cups. Small? All actual players that were instrumental in them winning. Does this look like a small team?

Yes, it does look like a small team. They had one (literally) massive outlier in Byfuglien who single handedly added 3 lbs to their average weight. The median weight on that team was smaller than average.

 

[Gallagbi]

You seriously need to stop putting words in my mouth. I did not say Chicago was a team full of smurfs, I did not say you could win a cup with a team full of smurfs, and I did not say Detroit is a team full of smurfs.

Look at the ****ing link, it shows that Chicago is an AVERAGE-SIZED TEAM when they won the cup in 2013.

There is seriously NOTHING left to argue with here.

Take the BPA, but I don't mind the idea of moving down to the 5-7 range if it means an extra first/high 2nd.