Who was better in the playoffs: Eller or Plekanec?

[DAChampion]

I do not think that Brainiac is an Eller hater.

I think he is baffled by the cult of Eller.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

The one that had almost half of his points with Pacioretty. The one that has the most ice time on the 1st line.

And certainly not the one that played on the third line and his wingers while playing on the third line scored a total of 10 goals for the whole 82 games season. Yes, you read right, the numbers of goals scored by wingers while on the third line is 10. Yes, 10. Go make the count if you don't believe me.

Of course as a proven Eller hater, you wouldn't think the more you play Pacioretty, the more points you get.

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

You can't dismiss Weise's points because they came while playing with Pacioretty. Fact of the matter is that he earned those points. He made really nice plays to earn these points all year. I still remember that glorious feed from the boards between the legs against Detroit that made Datsyuk and his teammates look like fools and broke that tight game wide open in the dying minutes of the game.

You can say that Eller didn't have guys to finish his plays like Weise did with Patch. But the truth is that Eller wasn't making these plays. It's not like we saw Eller make glorious feed and beautiful passes time and time again that put his linemates in wide open scoring positions that they just failed on. Granted this is my appreciation from having watched the games. Perhaps I'm biased and he did in fact feed his wingers all year but they failed to take advantage but that's not what I recall personally. Your mileage may vary.

Also I wonder when Weise was playing with Patch if he was playing against stronger opposition than Eller has played against this season (I don't know if QoC can be verified for the games he played with Patch versus Eller's QoC for the entire season).

Finally, I don't recall Weise playing with Eller much, but I'm sure he must have. If Eller is so amazing, and Weise can produce with amazing players... shouldn't they have been making things happen ?

All in all, it's not entirely fair to compare Eller and Weise because they both play different positions and have different roles. But it's not fair to dismiss Weise's production as being the product of Pacioretty either. Not to mention that Weise didn't leech from Patch, he contributed directly, often at key times in games against good opposition.

 

[Takeru]

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

You can't dismiss Weise's points because they came while playing with Pacioretty. Fact of the matter is that he earned those points. He made really nice plays to earn these points all year. I still remember that glorious feed from the boards between the legs against Detroit that made Datsyuk and his teammates look like fools and broke that tight game wide open in the dying minutes of the game.

You can say that Eller didn't have guys to finish his plays like Weise did with Patch. But the truth is that Eller wasn't making these plays. It's not like we saw Eller make glorious feed and beautiful passes time and time again that put his linemates in wide open scoring positions that they just failed on. Granted this is my appreciation from having watched the games. Perhaps I'm biased and he did in fact feed his wingers all year but they failed to take advantage but that's not what I recall personally. Your mileage may vary.

Also I wonder when Weise was playing with Patch if he was playing against stronger opposition than Eller has played against this season (I don't know if QoC can be verified for the games he played with Patch versus Eller's QoC for the entire season).

Finally, I don't recall Weise playing with Eller much, but I'm sure he must have. If Eller is so amazing, and Weise can produce with amazing players... shouldn't they have been making things happen ?

All in all, it's not entirely fair to compare Eller and Weise because they both play different positions and have different roles. But it's not fair to dismiss Weise's production as being the product of Pacioretty either. Not to mention that Weise didn't leech from Patch, he contributed directly, often at key times in games against good opposition.

Man what a refreshing post. Thank you for putting my thoughts into words.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

You can't dismiss Weise's points because they came while playing with Pacioretty. Fact of the matter is that he earned those points. He made really nice plays to earn these points all year. I still remember that glorious feed from the boards between the legs against Detroit that made Datsyuk and his teammates look like fools and broke that tight game wide open in the dying minutes of the game.

You can say that Eller didn't have guys to finish his plays like Weise did with Patch. But the truth is that Eller wasn't making these plays. It's not like we saw Eller make glorious feed and beautiful passes time and time again that put his linemates in wide open scoring positions that they just failed on. Granted this is my appreciation from having watched the games. Perhaps I'm biased and he did in fact feed his wingers all year but they failed to take advantage but that's not what I recall personally. Your mileage may vary.

Also I wonder when Weise was playing with Patch if he was playing against stronger opposition than Eller has played against this season (I don't know if QoC can be verified for the games he played with Patch versus Eller's QoC for the entire season).

Finally, I don't recall Weise playing with Eller much, but I'm sure he must have. If Eller is so amazing, and Weise can produce with amazing players... shouldn't they have been making things happen ?

All in all, it's not entirely fair to compare Eller and Weise because they both play different positions and have different roles. But it's not fair to dismiss Weise's production as being the product of Pacioretty either. Not to mention that Weise didn't leech from Patch, he contributed directly, often at key times in games against good opposition.

I wasn't trying to discredit Weise. The poster was implying that Weise is better than Eller because he had more points without considering the context. I was just trying to show that Weise got over half of his production while playing on the first line, in an offensive role.

I remember Eller got 2 pts with Pacioretty on 2 diffenrent shifts. With some rare circumstantial situation, they happened to be on the ice at the same time, IIRC it was on the PK, Eller assisted Pacioretty twice, in two shifts, in back to back games. So it kinda shows that it is much easier to produce when you have wingers that can score. Prust, DSP, Bourque and Weise scored 0 goal while playing on Eller's wing this season.

Also, never said, or no one ever said Eller is an amazing player. You don't need to invent stuff to make an argument.

 

[Takeru]

I wasn't trying to discredit Weise. The poster was implying that Weise is better than Eller because he had more points without considering the context. I was just trying to show that Weise got over half of his production while playing on the first line, in an offensive role.

I remember Eller got 2 pts with Pacioretty on 2 diffenrent shifts. With some rare circumstantial situation, they happened to be on the ice at the same time, IIRC it was on the PK, Eller assisted Pacioretty twice, in two shifts, in back to back games. So it kinda shows that it is much easier to produce when you have wingers that can score. Prust, DSP, Bourque and Weise scored 0 goal while playing on Eller's wing this season.

Also, never said, or no one ever said Eller is an amazing player. You don't need to invent stuff to make an argument.

And that's the complaint some of us have. Linemates do make a difference in production, but better players will be able to make bad linemates look better.

There is kind of a double standard around here where if a certain player (say Weise) gets points while playing with Pacioretty, it's considered leeching, but it's then advocated that other players (say Eller) should get to play with him, despite no evidence that the same "leeching" phenomenon wouldn't occur.

This is not a defense of the status quo, nor am I opposed to the idea of trying something different (ie Eller having some shifts with better linemates), I'm just trying to temper the expectations on what results these measures might yield.

Now I don't hate Eller, I just don't think he's that much greater than his stats suggest.

 

[Brainiac]

I do not think that Brainiac is an Eller hater.

I think he is baffled by the cult of Eller.

That's mostly accurate.

For me, the guy always had very limited offensive potential. When he tries to do something in the o-zone he usually hogs the puck way too long and it kills the play. Or he tries an impossible pass when he's got an open net.

At this point, the most rational thing to do is to accept that the shortened season was an anomaly. And it makes sense, a lot of vets didn't train as hard during the lock-out so the young guns came in January will all cylinders firing.

But he's got some size and can skate around with the puck on his stick so... puck possession!! Best player ever!!

 

[Bob Cole]

Let's do another poll:

Without looking it up on NHL.com, who had more points last year?

1-Legendary Viking Lars Eller

2-Dale Weise aka Dutch Gretzky

You're an eller fanboy if you think he outplayed plekanec in the playoffs now?

Plekanec was a disgrace in the playoffs. Never seen someone with such low care level.

 

[Brainiac]

You're an eller fanboy if you think he outplayed plekanec in the playoffs now?

Plekanec was a disgrace in the playoffs. Never seen someone with such low care level.

If I use that term, I get infracted/reported whatever. So no, I didn't use that word.

But saying that Eller is a legend is fine with me, when I think of it.

Legend (noun):

A story from the past that is believed by many people but cannot be proved to be true.


But, more seriously, the fact is, I'd love to see Eller perform like he did in the shortened season or in last year's playoffs. I'm just not expecting it or considering it as the norm for him.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

That's mostly accurate.

For me, the guy always had very limited offensive potential. When he tries to do something in the o-zone he usually hogs the puck way too long and it kills the play. Or he tries an impossible pass when he's got an open net.

At this point, the most rational thing to do is to accept that the shortened season was an anomaly. And it makes sense, a lot of vets didn't train as hard during the lock-out so the young guns came in January will all cylinders firing.

But he's got some size and can skate around with the puck on his stick so... puck possession!! Best player ever!!

See, this is exactly why people don't take your opinion on Eller seriously. You are sarcastic and gets annoyed when Eller gets praised. You have to make absurb comment to make an argument.

Btw, the following 20 gamesthe shortened season, Eller got 13 pts... again as a third liner. That's 43 pts in 66 straight games.. then 48 in 75 games... which is better than with DD got this season. Eller got that as a third liner. How come a guy that has no offensive skill like you claim can outproduced a center that plays 80% of the time with Pacioretty and on every single PP.

Two straight playoffs that he's been our best center. For you, its probably luck and another anomaly but it starting to have a lot of anomaly now dont you think

Eller deserved more credits than what you give him for.

 

[pepperMonkey]

Eller deserved more credits than what you give him for.

And probably less credits than what some give him.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

And probably less credits than what some give him.

I don't get this.


Good third liner, good playoffs player, deserves at least a chance to play DD's role. I dont think that over the top. What did we undeservely credit him for?

 

[Brainiac]

See, this is exactly why people don't take your opinion on Eller seriously. You are sarcastic and gets annoyed when Eller gets praised. You have to make absurb comment to make an argument.

Btw, the following 20 gamesthe shortened season, Eller got 13 pts... again as a third liner. That's 43 pts in 66 straight games.. then 48 in 75 games... which is better than with DD got this season. Eller got that as a third liner. How come a guy that has no offensive skill like you claim can outproduced a center that plays 80% of the time with Pacioretty and on every single PP.

Sooo... I don't know what you're talking about with this 48 in 75, but whatever. That's 91 points in 141 games. Or a 0.65 PPG pace. That's pretty decent!

Then how in the hell Eller ends up at 0.37 PPG for his whole career? Care to elaborate on that? You're off by a factor of 2 on Eller's actual production there.

Two straight playoffs that he's been our best center. For you, its probably luck and another anomaly but it starting to have a lot of anomaly now dont you think

Last year, OK, he was our best center. This year? Totally debatable. None of our centers were any good.

Eller deserved more credits than what you give him for.

Don't worry buddy. Eller is getting enough credit as it is.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Sooo... I don't know what you're talking about with this 48 in 75, but whatever. That's 91 points in 141 games. Or a 0.65 PPG pace. That's pretty decent!

Then how in the hell Eller ends up at 0.37 PPG for his whole career? Care to elaborate on that? You're off by a factor of 2 on Eller's actual production there.



Last year, OK, he was our best center. This year? Totally debatable. None of our centers were any good.



Don't worry buddy. Eller is getting enough credit as it is.

lol no he didn't get .65pt per game in 141 games. That's 1st line number with the Habs. Wake up buddy.

What I meant is that he got 48 pts in 75 games. (30pts in 46 games of the shortnened + 18 pts in 29 games of the following season). That shows that he's not a 1 shortened season wonder player. There's a lot of bunch of games where Eller outperformed/outproduced our top 2 centers. No he doesn't do it constanly but it deserves recognition considering how weak our bottom 6 wingers are.

Do you seriously believe Plekanec was better than Eller this past playoffs? I've defended Plekanec and thought it wasn't a lack of effort from Pleky but he was not effective at all. Eller in the other hand was much more effective in his role of third center He is also tied with DD in points and 1 pt under Plekanec. He still outproduced both of them in the past 2 years in the playoffs. Kinda weird that our third center that plays with scrubs like Bourque, DSP, Prust, with no PP can outproduce 2 wingers that played mostly with Pacioretty, Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Vanek in the most importants games of the year. Must be another anomaly.

I've shown the GDT posts of last playoffs about Eller's game. He was not as bad as you pretend.

 

[LaP]

You can say that Eller didn't have guys to finish his plays like Weise did with Patch. But the truth is that Eller wasn't making these plays. It's not like we saw Eller make glorious feed and beautiful passes time and time again that put his linemates in wide open scoring positions that they just failed on. Granted this is my appreciation from having watched the games. Perhaps I'm biased and he did in fact feed his wingers all year but they failed to take advantage but that's not what I recall personally. Your mileage may vary.

At the beginning of the season when Eller was playing with Bourque and PAP i clearly remember Bourque and PAP both missing a couple of nice passes that Patch would have easily buried in 75% of the time.

I'm astonished that some people still don't realize how good Patch is in the regular season.

Eller would do around 45 points playing with Patch on a regular basis.

 

[LaP]

And probably less credits than what some give him.

The problem of this team is not Eller. The problem is the first line center can't do close to 70 points playing with a sniper like Patch.

People think 50-60 points is fine. It's fine when you play with Zubrus and Bulis. not when you play with Patch and Gallagher.

An healthy Koivu would have easily hit the 60-70 points on a regular basis with wingers like Patch and Gallagher. And Koivu was not a top first line center he was just good enough.

I don't understand how **** on the 3rd line center makes our first line center better.

 

[Takeru]

At the beginning of the season when Eller was playing with Bourque and PAP i clearly remember Bourque and PAP both missing a couple of nice passes that Patch would have easily buried in 75% of the time.

I'm astonished that some people still don't realize how good Patch is in the regular season.

Eller would do around 45 points playing with Patch on a regular basis.

And what would be the point of this?

A 45 pts Eller is no more useful than a 60pts Plekanec or a 48 pts DD. Desharnais isn't an ideal top 6 center, but no more is Eller. It's when people start making these claims that people try to calm things down. People like Weise on the bottom lines, but start bashing him when he's used as a top 6 player. Yet we keep hearing the same tune that Eller should be used on the top 6.

Not that he isn't a comparable option to Desharnais, but he's no more a solution to our problems than DD is. Frankly, neither should be centering any of the two first center positions.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

And what would be the point of this?

A 45 pts Eller is no more useful than a 60pts Plekanec or a 48 pts DD. Desharnais isn't an ideal top 6 center, but no more is Eller. It's when people start making these claims that people try to calm things down. People like Weise on the bottom lines, but start bashing him when he's used as a top 6 player. Yet we keep hearing the same tune that Eller should be used on the top 6.

Not that he isn't a comparable option to Desharnais, but he's no more a solution to our problems than DD is. Frankly, neither should be centering any of the two first center positions.

You hit nail on the head here. Weise had a higher points/TOI during the 2013-14 playoffs than Eller. Weise had 2nd highest ES points per TOI this regular season, 2nd to only pacioretty. Weise gets no PP time either but in the end, he had no business in top 6 unless filling for an injury or creating a spark.

Eller is more talented but also plays less of a 'north south' game like Weise. Weise's moderate success is because he knew not to hold onto the puck and to give it to more skilled players. I'm not convinced Eller would play the same way.

For all the faults DD has, his tunnel vision was based on high probability scoring chances, aka passing to the best shooter on the line. Unfortunately, it was his only play. It's like poker, you can play the odds every time but eventually the other players will catch on and read you perfectly.

We need a more dynamic #1C. Someone who is capable of both scoring and passing. I think of someone like Jason Spezza who was a 30 goal, 80 point guy for many years and was 6'3 with a right handed shot. His success with 2 skilled players was well received and even nicknamed the 'pizza line' in Ottawa. Pacioretty needs someone more dynamic and Galchenyuk may become that but he may not. Eller isn't really in that mold and Plekanec can fill in. DD is merely a player who has become too predictable and as such is no longer an option.

 

[pepperMonkey]

I don't get this.


Good third liner, good playoffs player, deserves at least a chance to play DD's role. I dont think that over the top. What did we undeservely credit him for?

Just like there are the people who discredits Eller to the extreme, there are those that do the opposite and hypes him up to be something he is not. I'm not saying you do, I'm saying there are those that do.

 

[pepperMonkey]

The problem of this team is not Eller. The problem is the first line center can't do close to 70 points playing with a sniper like Patch.

People think 50-60 points is fine. It's fine when you play with Zubrus and Bulis. not when you play with Patch and Gallagher.

An healthy Koivu would have easily hit the 60-70 points on a regular basis with wingers like Patch and Gallagher. And Koivu was not a top first line center he was just good enough.

I don't understand how **** on the 3rd line center makes our first line center better.

Never said he was the problem, or frankly, a problem at all. Just saying that there are those that gives him too much credit, just like there are those that don't give enough.

As for Koivu...err...not sure if you remember how he was before his injury problems but he was certainly a first line C. A good one at that. His body just didn't keep up. It pretty much broke down early in his career so he played most of his career at an already lesser degree than his skill and determination allowed. I.e. when he played with gutso like Gally, he was an exceptional C but unlike Gally (so far...cross fingers), Koivu's body couldn't keep up.

 

[LaP]

And what would be the point of this?

None.

Just saying we should not accept 40-50 points from a guy playing with Patch. 50 points with Patch is 3rd line production material imo. A guy doing 40-50 points with Patch will do easily 10 points less if you put him on a 3rd line. Usually you want the center to be as productive as the best winger he is playing with. If he is not he better be like Toews or Bergeron.

 

[LaP]

Never said he was the problem, or frankly, a problem at all. Just saying that there are those that gives him too much credit, just like there are those that don't give enough.

As for Koivu...err...not sure if you remember how he was before his injury problems but he was certainly a first line C. A good one at that. His body just didn't keep up. It pretty much broke down early in his career so he played most of his career at an already lesser degree than his skill and determination allowed. I.e. when he played with gutso like Gally, he was an exceptional C but unlike Gally (so far...cross fingers), Koivu's body couldn't keep up.

I was mostly referring at post cancer Koivu who played with crap wingers (instead of Recchi). By healthy i meant while playing 75+ games. Of course hard to do 70 points if you play 60 games only.

Of course Koivu before all the injuries and cancer would probably be over 80 points with Patch. He was over a ppg with recchi before his first big injury.

Anyway the point was not to dig up the ghosts. Just saying a real first line center should do more than 50 points and even borderline 60 points over 82 games with Patch. It should be close to 70 points over 82 games. 67-68 can be okay if the guy is good defensively. Under that it's not enough imo unless he is a selke and winning over 55% of his faceoffs.

 

[Nynja*]

And certainly not the one that played on the third line and his wingers while playing on the third line scored a total of 10 goals for the whole 82 games season. Yes, you read right, the numbers of goals scored by wingers while on the third line is 10. Yes, 10. Go make the count if you don't believe me.

Shh, theyre just gonna say that "Eller is a puck hog who cant make a pass, thats why he has more goals than all his wingers combined"

 

[pepperMonkey]

I was mostly referring at post cancer Koivu who played with crap wingers (instead of Recchi). By healthy i meant while playing 75+ games. Of course hard to do 70 points if you play 60 games only.

Of course Koivu before all the injuries and cancer would probably be over 80 points with Patch. He was over a ppg with recchi before his first big injury.

Anyway the point was not to dig up the ghosts. Just saying a real first line center should do more than 50 points and even borderline 60 points over 82 games with Patch. It should be close to 70 points over 82 games. 67-68 can be okay if the guy is good defensively. Under that it's not enough imo unless he is a selke and winning over 55% of his faceoffs.

Fair enough. I guess I never really thought of Koivu as being healthy at any point in his career past his 2nd year when he got his first big injury.
What ever the case, I agree that a first line C or first line forward should be getting more than 50 pts. I'm content with DD getting 60 that one year only because he wasn't really a first line C that year. If he was an established player, getting 60 is a miserable affair. Anyhow, obviously DD isn't good enough as a 1st C. Pleks I think is a tolerable first C when he racks up 70'ish points but obviously not a very good one (well, from an offensive POV). Eller...frankly doubt he would get more than DD that one year (60 pts) playing with Patches, let alone 70'sh pts that Pleks has. So IMO, we shouldn't be happy with any of them as a 1st C. Galch...just hope he gets a real shot of being a C this upcoming year and go from there.

 

[Brainiac]

What I meant is that he got 48 pts in 75 games. (30pts in 46 games of the shortnened + 18 pts in 29 games of the following season).

Sorry, but you wrote "43 pts in 66 straight games.. then 48 in 75 games..."

Sounds like it was two different streaks. Misunderstanding. But anyways, Eller is streaky, that is pretty much clear.

 

[Bring Bak Damphousse]

Eller did his job, 3rd line center, no pp time with terrible linemates...what could we honestly have expected point wise.

Pleks on the other hand, I rarely have any issues with him during the regular season, but by the time were eliminated I constantly find myself hoping he's dealt in the off-season.