OT: Who Remembers the Pre-Championship Raptors?

[mcleex]

Raptors have heart and toughness. Lowry is a beast and a true leader, always talking. The team has character and you can't push them around

The Leafs are gutless and heartless. Every time the camera pans on them you just see them staring mindlessly. It's dispicable

 

[MSZ]

If we really wanted to compare the Leafs-Raptors (pre championship) it would be the late 90s to 2004 Leafs. Good regular season team and consistently making the 2nd round with one ECF appearance.

Two ECF appearances. 99 and 02.

 

[leafs2727]

The Raptors have most certainly hit on some draft picks and have developed their players exceptionally well. They’ve also had a string of successful seasons.

I think what has set them apart is Nick Nurse and the how structured their team play has been. They execute at a very high level.

Having a coach get buy-in from the team and having a very disciplined style of play is exactly what the Leafs need. I don’t know what to make of Keefe just yet as it’s such a small sample size, but that’s what we need from a coach.

 

[93LEAFS]

Vince was the reason why we went even that far. Vince took it to the Phillies and Iverson who was just insane at the time

Vince went to head to head with the best at the time. Just because went to his graduation means nothing. Regardless of that he performed exceptionally well.

Iverson was good, but not the best at the time. Hard to argue Shaq wasn't the best player in the NBA in the early 2000's. Voters just didn't give him individual awards because they thought he just dominated due to size, ignoring the crazy athleticism required to carry that size. He was Truly unstoppable at that time.

I'd argue Duncan was clearly better than Iverson at that time too. Iverson just had more flair and individualism which made him more marketable. But, I think anyone would take those 2 over him at the time.

 

[djdev]

Raptors have heart and toughness. Lowry is a beast and a true leader, always talking. The team has character and you can't push them around

The Leafs are gutless and heartless. Every time the camera pans on them you just see them staring mindlessly. It's dispicable

the narrative that lowry is a "beast" stemmed from last year..remember game 1 vs orlando when he went scoreless? alot of people thought oh boy playoff lowry is showing up again. he was just as much at fault as derozan for our recent playoff failures. sometimes i suppose it takes somebody like kawhi, a superstar AND a proven playoff performer to push a team over that last hurdle..now they all have that championship confidence and its showing.

for the longest time the raptors were considered chokers and heartless. getting swept out of the playoffs on multiple occasions..once by the damn wizards.
they must have been despicable to you too i guess?

 

[theaub]

Vince was the reason why we went even that far. Vince took it to the Phillies and Iverson who was just insane at the time

Vince went to head to head with the best at the time. Just because went to his graduation means nothing. Regardless of that he performed exceptionally well.

Vince going to his graduation for a paper course degree on the day of the biggest game of his career remains absurd to this day.

 

[Zanks]

People saying LeBron is the best player of all-time don't know basketball. Duncan had the better career (so far). He's in the Larry Bird, Dr J, Kobe top 15 for sure, but not necessarily top 5. Winning everything matters.

Wilt, Kareem, MJ...
Duncan, Magic, Russell...
Kobe, LeBron

 

[djdev]

Vince going to his graduation for a paper course degree on the day of the biggest game of his career remains absurd to this day.

butch and grunwald were in way over their heads lol. theres no way they should have let him go.

 

[lovemyleafs]

They were making conference finals and winning rounds so I’d agree with you.

There is no argument that can be made where lebron is the greatest player ever. Stop with this narrative. You must be like 15 years old

Ok boomer. There's been plenty of players/analysts that say LeBron is the better player including Jordan's own teammates.
You're just an old head that refuses to believe that someone can overtake your idol as the greatest player ever.
I'm not saying LeBron is the undisputed GOAT atm. But I'm confident he will be once he retires, when its all said and done. He'll be the all time leading scorer, might win another ring or two, etc. He still has some years left in him and he continues to play at an exceptionally high level. To say he has no argument is just pure ignorance.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

There are a few similarities but it's not exactly the same. While it's true that the Raptors dealt with many a playoff disappointment and had a core that felt like it had gone stale, in the regular season they were consistently one of the best teams in the East, winning their division numerous times and finishing in the top 3 of the conference en route to their championship. The Raptors were legitimate contenders for multiple seasons before finally getting over the hump, and were only stopped because they kept running into the best NBA player of this generation who utterly destroyed their psyche.

The Leafs have the psyche destroyed part down, but beyond that the similarities end there. Besides the winning record the Raptors were also one of the top teams in the league defensively, the exact opposite of the Leafs right now. Leafs were also on their way to just barely qualifying for the playoffs this season, and even that was a coin toss. They're closer to an 8 seed than the 1st or 2nd best team in the conference. Also, the Raptors were actually able to win playoff rounds when they got there.

It will most likely take the Leafs moving on from one of their core pieces to evolve into contenders. But it's not at all the same as trading DeRozan for Leonard. The Raptors were close to championship caliber, Kawhi put them over the top to get there. No one would see these Leafs as being close to championship quality.

 

[KapG]

Ok boomer. There's been plenty of players/analysts that say LeBron is the better player including Jordan's own teammates.
You're just an old head that refuses to believe that someone can overtake your idol as the greatest player ever.
I'm not saying LeBron is the undisputed GOAT atm. But I'm confident he will be once he retires, when its all said and done. He'll be the all time leading scorer, might win another ring or two, etc. He still has some years left in him and he continues to play at an exceptionally high level. To say he has no argument is just pure ignorance.

Go to bed it’s passed your bedtime child.

 

[The Podium]

A lot of people are using regular season success and playoff series wins as direct comparisons. They are also using revisionist history here.

The NBA has a lot less parity than the NHL. Only 2-3 teams or less per conference actually compete in the playoffs.

What I’m talking about is the general aura of the fans surrounding this team. Yes they lost to Lebron, but in that 6 year stretch they were swept 3 times. Lowry was absolutely terrible in 4/6 of those series. They lost multiple series as the higher seed and favourites.

The actual results are not directly comparable, but the feeling after each playoff run was.

Masai also had questions surrounding him as well, he was blocked from dealing Lowry and even after the DeRozan deal people were questioning the move.

 

[sparxx87]

the narrative that lowry is a "beast" stemmed from last year..remember game 1 vs orlando when he went scoreless? alot of people thought oh boy playoff lowry is showing up again. he was just as much at fault as derozan for our recent playoff failures. sometimes i suppose it takes somebody like kawhi, a superstar AND a proven playoff performer to push a team over that last hurdle..now they all have that championship confidence and its showing.

for the longest time the raptors were considered chokers and heartless. getting swept out of the playoffs on multiple occasions..once by the damn wizards.
they must have been despicable to you too i guess?

No, you just started watching last year. Lowry has never been a number 1 option but with DeRozan being soft between the ears in big games Lowry was often forced to be that guy. That isn’t his game, he’s a true PG. Orlando was an example of being too passive, not choking. He realized he wasn’t aggressive enough and it was problem solved the next night.

They weren’t considered heartless or chokers by anyone with common sense. Much of the American basketball media doesn’t watch the Raptors but still have to report on them. Slandering ‘that team in Canada’ that LeBron James continues to run over was good for views and clicks. Most of these people are wrong more than they’re right and can’t be taken seriously. In fact, you’ll come across dozens and dozens of examples of things that are black and white and they just get it wrong because they weren’t paying attention. Last week when they beat the Lakers with all eyes on the bubble it got people’s attention. One of the post game guys was asked what made the difference and he named 2-3 players then mentioned Chris Boucher, a guy who didn’t play until garbage time when the game was already decided. That came from respected basketball media and will be available for anyone to watch... but it flat out didn’t happen.


Your perspective sounds like that of a casual fan who caught highlights and headlines.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Why is this relevant? Champion teams arent made in a season, some not even in 5 seasons. Look at the 6 year road it took the Raptors to win:

2013-2014 - First Round 3-4 L to Brooklyn Nets (underdogs)
2014-2015 - First Round 0-4 L to Washington Wizards (even)
2015-2016 - Conference Finals 2-4 L to Cleveland Cavaliers (even)
2016-2017 - Second Round 0-4 L to Cleveland Cavaliers (even)
2017-2018 - Second Round 0-4 L to Cleveland Cavaliers (favourites)

I don't know if it's possible to look up historical betting lines anywhere but I'm pretty sure the bolded is way off. According to this we were never underdogs against Lebron and I'm positive that's wrong. In fact I'd guess that we were underdogs every single time against Lebron.

 

[KuleminFan41]

A lot of other teams also go through the same things and fail continually too.

Sure but as I said elsewhere, people seem to forget just how young this Leafs team actually is and potentially will get even younger next season when the likes of Clifford(29), Ceci(26), Spezza(37) , and Barrie(29) get replaced by guys like Robertson(18) , Sandin(20) , and Liljegren (21). I'm not excusing the Leafs losing but we can't forget that these guys are pretty young and that's why I hope/expect more veterans added to the team for next season.

 

[robertmac43]

I don't know if it's possible to look up historical betting lines anywhere but I'm pretty sure the bolded is way off. According to this we were never underdogs against Lebron and I'm positive that's wrong. In fact I'd guess that we were underdogs every single time against Lebron.

We were never the favourites in 2017-18 our record was better int he reg season but that doesn't mean much when you come against Lebron.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We were never the favourites in 2017-18 our record was better int he reg season but that doesn't mean much when you come against Lebron.

Yeah that was my thought as well, that the poster just looked at the regular season standings. Playoff Lebron is different than regular season Lebron though, it's like night and day and bookmakers are well aware of this.

 

[Plat87]

A lot of people are using regular season success and playoff series wins as direct comparisons. They are also using revisionist history here.

The NBA has a lot less parity than the NHL. Only 2-3 teams or less per conference actually compete in the playoffs.

What I’m talking about is the general aura of the fans surrounding this team. Yes they lost to Lebron, but in that 6 year stretch they were swept 3 times. Lowry was absolutely terrible in 4/6 of those series. They lost multiple series as the higher seed and favourites.

The actual results are not directly comparable, but the feeling after each playoff run was.

Masai also had questions surrounding him as well, he was blocked from dealing Lowry and even after the DeRozan deal people were questioning the move.

The Leafs haven't won a playoff series IN SIXTEEN YEARS, the second longest active streak in the NHL. Even though the pre-championship Raptors lost in the first round the first two times making the playoffs, atleast they went to the ECF, they could atleast win one playoff round.

 

[Plat87]

Your perspective sounds like that of a casual fan who caught highlights and headlines.

Too many people on here pretending to know anything about the NBA, comparing the Leafs to the Raptors before they won the championship is a dead giveaway.

 

[djdev]

No, you just started watching last year. Lowry has never been a number 1 option but with DeRozan being soft between the ears in big games Lowry was often forced to be that guy. That isn’t his game, he’s a true PG. Orlando was an example of being too passive, not choking. He realized he wasn’t aggressive enough and it was problem solved the next night.

They weren’t considered heartless or chokers by anyone with common sense. Much of the American basketball media doesn’t watch the Raptors but still have to report on them. Slandering ‘that team in Canada’ that LeBron James continues to run over was good for views and clicks. Most of these people are wrong more than they’re right and can’t be taken seriously. In fact, you’ll come across dozens and dozens of examples of things that are black and white and they just get it wrong because they weren’t paying attention. Last week when they beat the Lakers with all eyes on the bubble it got people’s attention. One of the post game guys was asked what made the difference and he named 2-3 players then mentioned Chris Boucher, a guy who didn’t play until garbage time when the game was already decided. That came from respected basketball media and will be available for anyone to watch... but it flat out didn’t happen.


Your perspective sounds like that of a casual fan who caught highlights and headlines.

lol ive been watching since the 1st season, but nice try...grow up kid.

 

[Stephen]

Well, they did root out DeMar DeRozan, who was a career Raptor and replaced him with a cyborg for one year. And since that trade Kawhi’s personality and instincts have been imprinted pretty heavily on the Toronto Raptors to the point of being called the new San Antonio Spurs. So I could see the Maple Leafs benefitting from the same sort of heart transplant.

 

[sparxx87]

lol ive been watching since the 1st season, but nice try...grow up kid.

Rather than acting like a kid yourself, why not refute what I said? I explained to you why your perception of Lowry was wrong, and I explained how a false narrative became sensationalized in the media.

Tell me why I’m wrong, kid.

 

[theaub]

I don't know if it's possible to look up historical betting lines anywhere but I'm pretty sure the bolded is way off. According to this we were never underdogs against Lebron and I'm positive that's wrong. In fact I'd guess that we were underdogs every single time against Lebron.

Raps were big underdogs in '16 and '17, but were surprisingly large favourites in '18 (north of -200 IIRC).

The idea that a team that was starting Luis Scola were even odds against LeBron is pretty lol.

e: in fact, the Raps were +700 in that 2016 series per the internet lmao

 

[Gary Nylund]

Raps were big underdogs in '16 and '17, but were surprisingly large favourites in '18 (north of -200 IIRC).

The idea that a team that was starting Luis Scola were even odds against LeBron is pretty lol.

e: in fact, the Raps were +700 in that 2016 series per the internet lmao

-200 wow. I don't remember exactly what the rosters were back then but that's still shocking.

 

[The Masters]

Night and day

Raps had their struggles in the playoffs but they were a solid team and they did it 2nd/conference finals and kept fixin their mistakes every year.

Finally masai got rid of Casey and Derozan who were the biggest problems for playoff success

Leafs dont have a good team and are filled with just high scoring guys and nothing more. Zero defence and a shaky goaltender at times ... although I think a better defence with help Andersen

The more I see it, the more I think Shanny jumped the gun on bringing in Dubas and letting go Lou. Lou's leadership and experience is what this team really needed the next 3 years.