OT: Who Remembers the Pre-Championship Raptors?

[Duffman955]

Raptors won playoff series and only lost to the GOAT of NBA.

If the leafs lost only in the conference finals to Gretzky, then signed prime Chris Pronger, they would be comparable.

 

[Duffman955]

I would also like to add that the raptors were significantly better than the leafs in regular season and playoffs before the championship season

Dont forget, leafs are a 8th place team

 

[Plat87]

The Leafs are not regressing. They actually have performed much better the past two years, so they are progressing. Enough to win both series, but the better team does not always win in the playoffs.

Additionally, the NHL and NBA are completely different. There is a lot less parity in basketball, with only 2 or 3 teams from the East which have a good shot at winning at any given time. NHL, there is at least 5... If not a lot more than that. Additionally, there is a lot more room for error. If you miss a shot or even have a bad stretch of play in a game, it is a lot less likely to hurt you than if you miss a goal. A team needs to make a couple dozen baskets if they want to win a game, so missing a couple is not often a big deal. In the NHL, if you are scoring 3 goals in a game, you are doing quite well... So missing one or two goals could be the entire game or series (as you can by Columbus, and we missed a lot more than just one or two goals).

Also one good player can change an entire franchise in Basketball a lot more than they can in hockey, as you can see by Leonard.

But I'm not comparing the sports with one another, I'm comparing how well the two teams do in their own respective leagues, and clearly one team is well ahead of the other. Oh and the Leafs are clearly regressing, 105 points in 2018 lost first round in 7 games, 100 points in 2019 lost first round in 7 games, on pace for well under 100 points and didn't even make the playoffs in 2020.

 

[robertmac43]

Hard to compare. Bringing a top 3 player in the league does much more in basketball than it does in hockey, so the Kawhi trade will hold more of impact over a trade the Leafs can make

 

[Clark4Ever]

In the last 4 years the Raptors have only lost to arguably the best player in the history of the sport. A guy who hadn't lost a series outside of the finals in almost a decade.

The Raptors were way better than the Leafs pre championship.

Exactly. Furthermore, they were able to advance in the playoffs many times before ultimately winning a championship.

This Leaf core has not won a single playoff series.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

But I'm not comparing the sports with one another, I'm comparing how well the two teams do in their own respective leagues, and clearly one team is well ahead of the other. Oh and the Leafs are clearly regressing, 105 points in 2018 lost first round in 7 games, 100 points in 2019 lost first round in 7 games, on pace for well under 100 points and didn't even make the playoffs in 2020.

As I said, outside of last year, the Raptors were pretty much in the same kind of rut as the Leafs. They won one real series in their entire 24 year existence (i.e. made it further than the semis, which shows they were able to beat a good team). Then they made a bold move to get Leonard for DeRozan + and it worked out extremely well. They also got extremely lucky at times during that run (Leonard's basket against Philly for example). Leafs have not been very lucky at all... The exact opposite in fact.

105 points was with 7 shootout wins. We got 100 with 0 shootout wins and we still only finished 5 points worse than Boston in both years. Yes in terms of absolute points it is worse, but shootouts are a crap shoot so getting 14 points from them is not exactly showing that you are a "better" team. If they had all been losses like the other years, we would only be a 98 point team that year.

Under Keefe, we had a 103 point pace with no shootout wins as well. So better as well. Not to mention that we actually played better in the past two years than the first two years... Well enough to win both series. The first two series (Washington and the first Boston series), we were severely outplayed.

 

[sparxx87]

Hard to compare. Bringing a top 3 player in the league does much more in basketball than it does in hockey, so the Kawhi trade will hold more of impact over a trade the Leafs can make

For sure, but the core and the culture had already been established. Moving DeRozan (and eventually JV) were the final moves that ensured their entire team was tough minded, two way players.

They were fortunate to get Kawhi based on his falling out with the Spurs but the rest of the organization put themselves into a position where one move could make that type of difference. Can’t undersell Marc Gasol, either. He’s not a box score guy but he adds so much value on the defensive end. His contributions seem to be underrated by some.


Raptors emphasis was on tough, two way players that will outwork you as well as outscore you. I can’t for the life of me understand how someone could be in tune with the Raptors and Leafs and suggest they have similarities beyond their address.

The Leafs are a hybrid of the Houston Rockets and New York Knicks.

 

[Plat87]

As I said, outside of last year, the Raptors were pretty much in the same kind of rut as the Leafs. They won one real series in their entire 24 year existence (i.e. made it further than the semis, which shows they were able to beat a good team). Then they made a bold move to get Leonard for DeRozan + and it worked out extremely well. They also got extremely lucky at times during that run (Leonard's basket against Philly for example). Leafs have not been very lucky at all... The exact opposite in fact.

If you look at every championship run in every sport close enough, you will find that the winning teams needed some sort of luck to win, if Kawhi missed that shot the game would've went into OT and there would have still been a 50/50 chance of winning the game, you are making it seem like if Kawhi missed the four bouncer the Raptors would've lost the series. And yes the Raptors were a sad franchise before Masai came, that is why the franchise will always be separated into two eras, pre-Masi and the current era, how's the current era doing? That Derozan-Kawhi trade is exactly what makes Masai the consensus best executive in the NBA right now and he has been for a while, he played it PERFECTLY, he is always proactive and never reactive like a Dubas.

This is the problem with some Leafs fans, always making some type of excuses, "no puck luck", "ran into a hot goalie", "didn't play him enough" etc, whats the excuse next year?...there's never just admitting the failure and weaknesses, this apologist mentality has got go.

 

[mikeo1]

The Leafs don't just fail in the playoffs. They've been barely getting by in the last two regular seasons as well. The Raptors also won playoff rounds and play a tough two way game, two things the Leafs haven't been able to do for decades. This team is not like the Raptors in any way.

 

[tmlms13]

Go look up the late 80's Chicago Bulls. Then in the 90's they got so good MJ got bored and played AA baseball for Terry Francona.

They could have legit had an 8-peat.

 

[sparxx87]

If you look at every championship run in every sport close enough, you will find that the winning teams needed some sort of luck to win, if Kawhi missed that shot the game would've went into OT and there would have still been a 50/50 chance of winning the game, you are making it seem like if Kawhi missed the four bouncer the Raptors would've lost the series. And yes the Raptors were a sad franchise before Masai came, that is why the franchise will always be separated into two eras, pre-Masi and the current era, how's the current era doing? That Derozan-Kawhi trade is exactly what makes Masai the consensus best executive in the NBA right now and he has been for a while, he played it PERFECTLY, he is always proactive and never reactive like a Dubas.

This is the problem with some Leafs fans, always making some type of excuses, "no puck luck", "ran into a hot goalie", "didn't play him enough" etc, whats the excuse next year?...there's never just admitting the failure and weaknesses, this apologist mentality has got go.

Don’t forget Masai won a title without a lottery pick on the roster. He currently has the 3rd best record in the NBA with nobody selected higher than 23rd. (Stanley Johnson doesn’t play so I don’t count him) as well as two very good rotation players who went undrafted. This speaks to his ability to not only identify talent, but also identify the missing pieces that can effectively fill roles on his team. The Clippers have the best top 9 but 1-15 the Raptors have the deepest team in basketball.

Kyle Dubas has absolutely no concept of this.

You’re hard pressed to think of any bad moves he made. The only one I’ve got is DeMarre Carroll although this is a bit unfair because he was a lot better in Atlanta than he was in Toronto, and had previously done a respectable job slowing down the unstoppable force that was LeBron James.

Masai eventually had to give up a 1st and 2nd to dump Carroll on Brooklyn but the initial acquisition was a good and sensible one that just didn’t work out.

 

[robertmac43]

For sure, but the core and the culture had already been established. Moving DeRozan (and eventually JV) were the final moves that ensured their entire team was tough minded, two way players.

They were fortunate to get Kawhi based on his falling out with the Spurs but the rest of the organization put themselves into a position where one move could make that type of difference. Can’t undersell Marc Gasol, either. He’s not a box score guy but he adds so much value on the defensive end. His contributions seem to be underrated by some.


Raptors emphasis was on tough, two way players that will outwork you as well as outscore you. I can’t for the life of me understand how someone could be in tune with the Raptors and Leafs and suggest they have similarities beyond their address.

The Leafs are a hybrid of the Houston Rockets and New York Knicks.

Oh for sure, Gasol and Green played important roles in the championship run. I'm just saying I don't think there is a trade target that can have as big an impact on the Leafs, like Kawhi had on the Raps.

Also your comparison with the Rockets and Knicks makes too much sense!

 

[SeaOfBlue]

If you look at every championship run in every sport close enough, you will find that the winning teams needed some sort of luck to win, if Kawhi missed that shot the game would've went into OT and there would have still been a 50/50 chance of winning the game, you are making it seem like if Kawhi missed the four bouncer the Raptors would've lost the series. And yes the Raptors were a sad franchise before Masai came, that is why the franchise will always be separated into two eras, pre-Masi and the current era, how's the current era doing? That Derozan-Kawhi trade is exactly what makes Masai the consensus best executive in the NBA right now and he has been for a while, he played it PERFECTLY, he is always proactive and never reactive like a Dubas.

This is the problem with some Leafs fans, always making some type of excuses, "no puck luck", "ran into a hot goalie", "didn't play him enough" etc, whats the excuse next year?...there's never just admitting the failure and weaknesses, this apologist mentality has got go.

Under Masai Ujiri it took Toronto 3 years to win a real series (getting to the Conference Finals) and then he regressed for two years before going all the way. He didn't even win a playoff series at all (which is really bad for the NBA) for the first two years, and while the Raptors were mediocre before he arrived, the main pieces that led Toronto for the first 5 years (Lowry and DeRozan) were already in place. It took him 6 years and for LeBron to leave the conference.

There is nothing to fault with Ujiri. Ujiri made some bold moves and had some luck with them turning out. Not all great moves have great results, but that does not mean they are not great moves. Imagine if that Leonard bucket does not go in and they lose in the Semis for the 3rd straight year. They lose Leonard and they have nothing to show for moving DeRozan. Suddenly the optics look very different, even though Ujiri did nothing differently. He still gave his team a great chance to win a championship either way.

The problem with Leafs fans is not that they make excuses, but rather they lack an understanding of the intricacies of the game and have to with simplified ways to comprehend what has happened. That can lead to excuses, but as we see right now in Leaf Land, it also leads to a bunch of frustrated fans and media personalities making an absolute fool of themselves and showing that they really don't understand hockey as well as they think they do. They get caught up with simple parts of the games like not hitting enough or sticking up for a teammate, or scoring goals and as a result we played like trash and we are a trash team. That's not saying that there is not value in those things (especially scoring goals), but you are looking at like 25% of the picture and trying to make a comprehensive judgement on the whole team based on 1/4 of the information... Chances are, you are going to make a very poor judgement. If you look at the whole picture, you see that the Leafs actually generated a number of chances, did a good job limiting Columbus' chances, and actually worked quite hard to keep the cycle going or creating something out of nothing with just plain hard work. It was a refreshing change from the Leafs of the past few years. Unfortunately, the puck did not go in the net despite all of those chances. 2% 5v5 SH% is not "the Leafs suck", it's "why the heck is the puck not going in the net". Maybe there is something fundamentally wrong, or something they could have done differently. At the same time, even if they only scored 4% of their ES goals, which is the lowest in any 5 game stretch the Leafs had this past season (according to Tim and Sid) and less than half of their season average of 8.5%, then the Leafs score 6 5v5 goals instead of 3. Excluding empty net goals, we lost Game 1 by 1 goal. We lost Game 5 by 2 goals. We lost Game 3 by 1 goal. We needed to win one more game. We score 3 more 5v5 goals, we likely win this series... In spite of having half of our average shooting percentage, a number of weak goals given up by Andersen and whatever other issues you have with this team. After that, who knows how far we could have gone. Maybe we could have won a Stanley Cup. Maybe we could have been swept by Tampa. Instead, it is we lost another series, Dubas should be fired after 2 years, and I guess get a better game plan?

 

[Tak7]

Are we still trying to create these ridiculous Raptors - Leafs analogies?

They just don't work. Stop it.

People act as if trading DeRozan was the one massive move that turned the Raptors into winners, which is utter nonsense - they were already a great regular season team, and had playoff success, prior to the trade. The DeRozan trade was the thing that put them over the top.

This Leafs team, by comparison:

1. Hasn't tasted success
2. Hasn't shown any ability to dominate
3. Aren't 1 big move away from putting themselves over the top.

These ridiculous comparisons between the Raptors and Leafs are an insult not only to Raptors, but to Raptors fans.

 

[Swervin81]

The Raptors finished 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, and 1st in the east in the DeMar era. They were consistently excellent regular season teams.

The Leafs have been the 8th, 4th, 5th, and 8th best teams in the east during the rebuild.

You can't even begin to compare the two. The Raptors problem is that DeMar just wasn't good enough to beat the greatest player of all time. We just ran into LeBron.

 

[Plat87]

Under Masai Ujiri it took Toronto 3 years to win a real series (getting to the Conference Finals) and then he regressed for two years before going all the way. He didn't even win a playoff series at all (which is really bad for the NBA) for the first two years, and while the Raptors were mediocre before he arrived, the main pieces that led Toronto for the first 5 years (Lowry and DeRozan) were already in place. It took him 6 years and for LeBron to leave the conference.

There is nothing to fault with Ujiri. Ujiri made some bold moves and had some luck with them turning out. Not all great moves have great results, but that does not mean they are not great moves. Imagine if that Leonard bucket does not go in and they lose in the Semis for the 3rd straight year. They lose Leonard and they have nothing to show for moving DeRozan. Suddenly the optics look very different, even though Ujiri did nothing differently. He still gave his team a great chance to win a championship either way.

The problem with Leafs fans is not that they make excuses, but rather they lack an understanding of the intricacies of the game and have to with simplified ways to comprehend what has happened. That can lead to excuses, but as we see right now in Leaf Land, it also leads to a bunch of frustrated fans and media personalities making an absolute fool of themselves and showing that they really don't understand hockey as well as they think they do. They get caught up with simple parts of the games like not hitting enough or sticking up for a teammate, or scoring goals and as a result we played like trash and we are a trash team. That's not saying that there is not value in those things (especially scoring goals), but you are looking at like 25% of the picture and trying to make a comprehensive judgement on the whole team based on 1/4 of the information... Chances are, you are going to make a very poor judgement. If you look at the whole picture, you see that the Leafs actually generated a number of chances, did a good job limiting Columbus' chances, and actually worked quite hard to keep the cycle going or creating something out of nothing with just plain hard work. It was a refreshing change from the Leafs of the past few years. Unfortunately, the puck did not go in the net despite all of those chances. 2% 5v5 SH% is not "the Leafs suck", it's "why the heck is the puck not going in the net". Maybe there is something fundamentally wrong, or something they could have done differently. At the same time, even if they only scored 4% of their ES goals, which is the lowest in any 5 game stretch the Leafs had this past season (according to Tim and Sid) and less than half of their season average of 8.5%, then the Leafs score 6 5v5 goals instead of 3. Excluding empty net goals, we lost Game 1 by 1 goal. We lost Game 5 by 2 goals. We lost Game 3 by 1 goal. We needed to win one more game. We score 3 more 5v5 goals, we likely win this series... In spite of having half of our average shooting percentage, a number of weak goals given up by Andersen and whatever other issues you have with this team. After that, who knows how far we could have gone. Maybe we could have won a Stanley Cup. Maybe we could have been swept by Tampa. Instead, it is we lost another series, Dubas should be fired after 2 years, and I guess get a better game plan?

Like I said, excuses, excuses, excuses..."the Leafs have no puck luck", "they lost by 1 goal", "why the heck is the puck not going in the net" is my favourite lmfao. But when it comes to the Raptors winning it's mostly luck right?, like they're so lucky Lebron left, they're so lucky Kawhi was available for a trade, they're so lucky Kawhi made a shot. The Raptors must have a big ass horsehoe up their asses cause they've been lucky for 7 straight years. You are giving Masai crap for not winning a playoff series until year 3, but hows Shanaplan doing, won a playoff round yet?

Keep writing essays about how unlucky the Leafs are or how the analytics say they should've won, if that makes you feel better but hopefully you won't be writing them for another 16 years.

 

[Plat87]

Are we still trying to create these ridiculous Raptors - Leafs analogies?

They just don't work. Stop it.

People act as if trading DeRozan was the one massive move that turned the Raptors into winners, which is utter nonsense - they were already a great regular season team, and had playoff success, prior to the trade. The DeRozan trade was the thing that put them over the top.

This Leafs team, by comparison:

1. Hasn't tasted success
2. Hasn't shown any ability to dominate
3. Aren't 1 big move away from putting themselves over the top.

These ridiculous comparisons between the Raptors and Leafs are an insult not only to Raptors, but to Raptors fans.

This guy gets it...

The Raptors finished 3rd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd, and 1st in the east in the DeMar era. They were consistently excellent regular season teams.

The Leafs have been the 8th, 4th, 5th, and 8th best teams in the east during the rebuild.

You can't even begin to compare the two. The Raptors problem is that DeMar just wasn't good enough to beat the greatest player of all time. We just ran into LeBron.

And so does he, but a blind Leafs homer would probably counter with "but we ran into the all time great Bruins"

 

[fahad203]

No Raptors team in history lacked heart and grit that I can think of. Even the worse team we had would at least put up a fight or try
That I cannot say the same of the Leafs

Nobody in this current team has the grit of Kyle Lowry let alone the balls that Kawahi left behind

 

[Gallagbi]

No Raptors team in history lacked heart and grit that I can think of. Even the worse team we had would at least put up a fight or try
That I cannot say the same of the Leafs

Nobody in this current team has the grit of Kyle Lowry let alone the balls that Kawahi left behind

Remember when Vince flew to his graduation on the day of Game 7 only to miss the final shot and everyone said he didn't care about winning? I do.

 

[AvroArrow]

DD trade for Kawhi, arguably the best in the sport
Emergence of the bench mob
Siakam emerged as a star
Veteran (ex-star) Gasol traded for

 

[Plat87]

Remember when Vince flew to his graduation on the day of Game 7 only to miss the final shot and everyone said he didn't care about winning? I do.

What does missing a game winning shot have to do with the teams heart and grit? that team was still tough as nails, Oakley, Antonio Davis, Alvin Williams, JYD. If I remember correctly it was the Raptors that almost made a mini-comeback at the end of the game there. That Sixers team eventually went to the Finals and even took a game from an all time great Lakers team. And yes VC got alot of flack for that and deservedly so.

 

[Gallagbi]

What does missing a game winning shot have to do with the teams heart and grit? that team was still tough as nails, Oakley, Antonio Davis, Alvin Williams, JYD. If I remember correctly it was the Raptors that almost made a mini-comeback at the end of the game there. That Sixers team eventually went to the Finals and even took a game from an all time great Lakers team. And yes VC got alot of flack for that and deservedly so.

Looks like you found that answer here.

There were also lots of people questioning the Raptors heart and ability to win until they got Kawhi

 

[CapspaceKiller]

This is a bad narrative to have. One player can make all the difference in the world in the NBA, one player rarely does in the NHL outside a hot goaltender.

Also, the NBA has radically evolved the last 5 or so years were the game is unrecognizable to the game played even in like 2008 or 2009.

The Raptors story is a weird one. They were a good team that was behind the times for a lot of the Dwane Casey era. They didn't move the ball well and their 3pt shooting was lousy. They won games by getting to the Free throw line and usually defense and rebounding, which was not conducive in the new league were everything is spreading the floor and 3pt shooting as well as the referees manage games completely different in the playoffs. The Raptors were a traditional team in an NBA era that was untraditional. The NHL hasn't had a true evolution like the NBA has. Positions have all changed. Roles have all changed. Things that were taboo are now done on a regular basis (Super small lineups, 2pgs at a time, big guys shooting 3s, not playing with a center...etc) The raptors didn't embrace this until 2017-18 and then gave up on their leading scorer, because his game just isn't setup for success, as well as he probably is a mentally weak player given his playoff blunders. They upgraded him with a player better than him in every conceivable way and then acquired a center that fit the new NBA perfectly mid-way through the season. If you look at the Raptors of 2016-17 and then in 2019-2020, they aren't playing the same at all. It's like a completely different team.

 

[Plat87]

Looks like you found that answer here.

So the team doesn't have heart and toughness because one player felt like FLYING to his graduation before a game? that 2000-2001 team is one of the grittiest Raptor squads ever. VC didn't shoot well that game but still put up 20/9/7/3stl/2blk...not bad for a game 7.

 

[CapspaceKiller]

So the team doesn't have heart and toughness because one player felt like FLYING to his graduation before a game? that 2000-2001 team is one of the grittiest Raptor squads ever. VC didn't shoot well that game but still put up 20/9/7/3stl/2blk...not bad for a game 7.

Yeah, that team was very tough and experienced. The problem was the talent level. They basically had 2 starting caliber players: Vince and AD. Everybody else were really good bench players. The team was setup to have McGrady on it after all, he would have made up for the lack of talent had he been there.