Who might be moving to Glens Falls?

[go comets]

Milwaukee is about 90 minutes from Chicago and Rockford. That covers 12 road games. Peoria (last season) is (was) 3.5 hours away, another 5 or 6 road games. Grand Rapids is 4 hours away. Iowa is 5.5 hours away, the last divisional team.

The arena owner in Houston was trying to drive the Aeros out. He was successful.

I don't consider Chicago , Milwaukee, Rockford , to be teams with travel issues. Its the Charlotte, abbotsford, Texas, okc, San Antonio that are expensive to operate. No bus rides and no day trips where they can be home in their bed the same night. For example, utica last weekend, e away games. Friday in Syracuse,back home after the game. Sat in bingo, again back home after the game, sun in Albany, back home after the game. No hotel bills, no meals yo buy. Same for everybody in new england and NY state. Cheaper to operate. Common sense should tell you that.

 

[WolfKeeper]

It cost a lot less money to have a team in the east. The biggest issues in the west are a lot of travel, which results in less practice time to develop your young talent. Look at utica, averaging 3300 or so a game and they are making money. With the travel in the west they need double that to pay those travel expenses.

Players and teams pretty much practice the same amount of time everywhere, regardless of travel. They might lose a couple of days a year depending on travel quirks, but not enough to make it an advantage.

Travel can have physical and mental effects, and I would argue that the West prepares players for NHL travel better.

Edit: Oops, Tommy Hawk beat me to the point

 

[Artie Fufkin]

I don't consider Chicago , Milwaukee, Rockford , to be teams with travel issues. Its the Charlotte, abbotsford, Texas, okc, San Antonio that are expensive to operate. No bus rides and no day trips where they can be home in their bed the same night. For example, utica last weekend, e away games. Friday in Syracuse,back home after the game. Sat in bingo, again back home after the game, sun in Albany, back home after the game. No hotel bills, no meals yo buy. Same for everybody in new england and NY state. Cheaper to operate. Common sense should tell you that.

It's not quite free. Under the AHL CBA, normal per diem is $67 a player. However, if travel time to a game is less than 3.5 hours and the immediate return trip home is less than 3.5 hours, each player gets $20 per diem.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Which team was it that was too cheap to buy a hotel night and the roads were icy and the bus crashed and players were injured? I know it wasn't a western conference team.

Also, Abbotsford doesn't pay for their travel, the city does.

Spending 6 hours on a bus right before a game can't really help the players as compared to spending the night in a hotel and having a morning skate, a nap in a comfortable bed and then the game.

But back to the topic, it looks like no one is going to Glens Falls.

 

[go comets]

Which team was it that was too cheap to buy a hotel night and the roads were icy and the bus crashed and players were injured? I know it wasn't a western conference team.

Also, Abbotsford doesn't pay for their travel, the city does.

Spending 6 hours on a bus right before a game can't really help the players as compared to spending the night in a hotel and having a morning skate, a nap in a comfortable bed and then the game.

But back to the topic, it looks like no one is going to Glens Falls.

That was Albany while the Carolina hurricanes were there.

 

[axecrew]

I don't consider Chicago , Milwaukee, Rockford , to be teams with travel issues. Its the Charlotte, abbotsford, Texas, okc, San Antonio that are expensive to operate. No bus rides and no day trips where they can be home in their bed the same night. For example, utica last weekend, e away games. Friday in Syracuse,back home after the game. Sat in bingo, again back home after the game, sun in Albany, back home after the game. No hotel bills, no meals yo buy. Same for everybody in new england and NY state. Cheaper to operate. Common sense should tell you that.

Ahhh to the contraire dear comet one........let me just give you a little rundown of a typical day in the ahl with regards to meals with examples. Whoever mentioned per diem is correct, but per diem is also only when a meal is not provided to them by the team. In Chicago, lets use Milwaukee as an example...The admirals bus to Chicago to play the Wolves...in the past, after the game a local establishment would drive over food that had been ordered prior to the game... pizzas,sandwiches the likes. The teams paid for this and the players would board their bus and eat on the way back home....nice for getting home quicker, but not so good for the gastointestinal system as the food was marginally better than the local McDonalds. NOW and for the past few years the admirals have been "buying" their meal at the arena itself. Allstate Arena has a fully staffed kitchen and chef. The chef provides them with a better meal and they eat while their buss is being loaded with their equipment, such meals include pasta and chicken(staple i know) but also can include steaks and the likes. I'm sure it cost milwaukee more to do it this way but the benefits outweight the cost.
Some teams who are staying in a nearby hotel will have a meal waiting for them back at the hotel after a game...this cost is built into the cost of their stay at the hotel and I'm sure is discounted to some degree.
The one thing you failed to mention in your rundown of cost or lack of.....the bus they ride in isn't free and in fact can cost upwards of $1,500-$2,000 per day including driver and his meals. So when you figure that in....What are you really saving? Think about the fatigue factor....game is over at 10 pm by the time you load the bus and get everyone on it it's now 11....now you have a 4 hr bus ride home meaning you don't pull into your home arena until at minimum 3 am. By the time you get home and fall asleep its around 4....there goes the next days practice but wait....you have a game that day and are traveling 3 hours away....so in order to be at arena for game you need to leave by at least 2 pm. So you have to get to arena in time for the bus...not too mention you will do your morning skate at home...and you'll need to eat something before the game. So now you have gotten up around 10 am for an 11 am skate etc....you just got maybe 6 hours of sleep and you'll do it all again later that night coming home.
OR.....you fly into Chicago the night before the game and check into your hotel, you go out to eat and get back at a reasonable hour, next morning you go to arena and have morning skate, go back to hotel and eat meal and take a nap...play game and then eat after, go back to hotel and sleep. Next morning you skate in Chicago have pre game meal and nap and bus 90 minutes to Milwaukee leaving at around 3 pm....play game and eat...get back to your hotel in Chicago around midnight, get up next morning and fly home arriving early afternoon. Or maybe you bus that day for a game in Rockford.....60 minutes away from where you are....

So which scenario do you think is more fatigue likely?????

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Ahhh to the contraire dear comet one........let me just give you a little rundown of a typical day in the ahl with regards to meals with examples. Whoever mentioned per diem is correct, but per diem is also only when a meal is not provided to them by the team. In Chicago, lets use Milwaukee as an example...The admirals bus to Chicago to play the Wolves...in the past, after the game a local establishment would drive over food that had been ordered prior to the game... pizzas,sandwiches the likes. The teams paid for this and the players would board their bus and eat on the way back home....nice for getting home quicker, but not so good for the gastointestinal system as the food was marginally better than the local McDonalds. NOW and for the past few years the admirals have been "buying" their meal at the arena itself. Allstate Arena has a fully staffed kitchen and chef. The chef provides them with a better meal and they eat while their buss is being loaded with their equipment, such meals include pasta and chicken(staple i know) but also can include steaks and the likes. I'm sure it cost milwaukee more to do it this way but the benefits outweight the cost.
Some teams who are staying in a nearby hotel will have a meal waiting for them back at the hotel after a game...this cost is built into the cost of their stay at the hotel and I'm sure is discounted to some degree.
The one thing you failed to mention in your rundown of cost or lack of.....the bus they ride in isn't free and in fact can cost upwards of $1,500-$2,000 per day including driver and his meals. So when you figure that in....What are you really saving? Think about the fatigue factor....game is over at 10 pm by the time you load the bus and get everyone on it it's now 11....now you have a 4 hr bus ride home meaning you don't pull into your home arena until at minimum 3 am. By the time you get home and fall asleep its around 4....there goes the next days practice but wait....you have a game that day and are traveling 3 hours away....so in order to be at arena for game you need to leave by at least 2 pm. So you have to get to arena in time for the bus...not too mention you will do your morning skate at home...and you'll need to eat something before the game. So now you have gotten up around 10 am for an 11 am skate etc....you just got maybe 6 hours of sleep and you'll do it all again later that night coming home.
OR.....you fly into Chicago the night before the game and check into your hotel, you go out to eat and get back at a reasonable hour, next morning you go to arena and have morning skate, go back to hotel and eat meal and take a nap...play game and then eat after, go back to hotel and sleep. Next morning you skate in Chicago have pre game meal and nap and bus 90 minutes to Milwaukee leaving at around 3 pm....play game and eat...get back to your hotel in Chicago around midnight, get up next morning and fly home arriving early afternoon. Or maybe you bus that day for a game in Rockford.....60 minutes away from where you are....

So which scenario do you think is more fatigue likely?????

I think that taking the airplane and getting a good night sleep in a hotel and maybe picking up some local girls is much worse than getting 5 hours of sleep and trying to get more sleep on those cramped buses.

Good to see you posting again axe!!

 

[go comets]

Ahhh to the contraire dear comet one........let me just give you a little rundown of a typical day in the ahl with regards to meals with examples. Whoever mentioned per diem is correct, but per diem is also only when a meal is not provided to them by the team. In Chicago, lets use Milwaukee as an example...The admirals bus to Chicago to play the Wolves...in the past, after the game a local establishment would drive over food that had been ordered prior to the game... pizzas,sandwiches the likes. The teams paid for this and the players would board their bus and eat on the way back home....nice for getting home quicker, but not so good for the gastointestinal system as the food was marginally better than the local McDonalds. NOW and for the past few years the admirals have been "buying" their meal at the arena itself. Allstate Arena has a fully staffed kitchen and chef. The chef provides them with a better meal and they eat while their buss is being loaded with their equipment, such meals include pasta and chicken(staple i know) but also can include steaks and the likes. I'm sure it cost milwaukee more to do it this way but the benefits outweight the cost.
Some teams who are staying in a nearby hotel will have a meal waiting for them back at the hotel after a game...this cost is built into the cost of their stay at the hotel and I'm sure is discounted to some degree.
The one thing you failed to mention in your rundown of cost or lack of.....the bus they ride in isn't free and in fact can cost upwards of $1,500-$2,000 per day including driver and his meals. So when you figure that in....What are you really saving? Think about the fatigue factor....game is over at 10 pm by the time you load the bus and get everyone on it it's now 11....now you have a 4 hr bus ride home meaning you don't pull into your home arena until at minimum 3 am. By the time you get home and fall asleep its around 4....there goes the next days practice but wait....you have a game that day and are traveling 3 hours away....so in order to be at arena for game you need to leave by at least 2 pm. So you have to get to arena in time for the bus...not too mention you will do your morning skate at home...and you'll need to eat something before the game. So now you have gotten up around 10 am for an 11 am skate etc....you just got maybe 6 hours of sleep and you'll do it all again later that night coming home.
OR.....you fly into Chicago the night before the game and check into your hotel, you go out to eat and get back at a reasonable hour, next morning you go to arena and have morning skate, go back to hotel and eat meal and take a nap...play game and then eat after, go back to hotel and sleep. Next morning you skate in Chicago have pre game meal and nap and bus 90 minutes to Milwaukee leaving at around 3 pm....play game and eat...get back to your hotel in Chicago around midnight, get up next morning and fly home arriving early afternoon. Or maybe you bus that day for a game in Rockford.....60 minutes away from where you are....

So which scenario do you think is more fatigue likely?????

That was not the case the comets had last weekend. Syracuse is a one our drive. Bingo and Albany are less than two hours. And with the way the ahl schedules, ( 3 games in 3 nights) teams don't have a choice but to travel after a game. Everything depends on the schedule. And in the east its normal to have to travel a lot of short trips. And I'm sure bussing is cheaper than flying. In the west flying in and playing two games in two or three nights is normal.

 

[Thunder God]

What about the other hockey leagues like the ECHL or other leagues

 

[axecrew]

That was not the case the comets had last weekend. Syracuse is a one our drive. Bingo and Albany are less than two hours. And with the way the ahl schedules, ( 3 games in 3 nights) teams don't have a choice but to travel after a game. Everything depends on the schedule. And in the east its normal to have to travel a lot of short trips. And I'm sure bussing is cheaper than flying. In the west flying in and playing two games in two or three nights is normal.

Fine but my point still remains the same....which is more beneficial to the player....leaving the arena at 11 pm and getting to bed around 1 am at the earliest...or leaving the arena and getting to bed around 11:30 ? Seems pretty easy to me...and like frostbite says.....what about the ECHL and CHL those leagues have teams that are more spread out and yet they do fine. And those leagues have the teams actually play each other outside of their own conference. I have said all along, it's no wonder the Western Conference wins the Calder Cup about 80+% of the time...they are used to the travel involved and most eastern teams can't handle it.

 

[fitchjr1]

it's no wonder the Western Conference wins the Calder Cup about 80+% of the time...they are used to the travel involved and most eastern teams can't handle it.

Since 2000 it's actually about 50/50, including 4 of the last 5 winners being from the Eastern Conference..

 

[MM658]

The one thing you failed to mention in your rundown of cost or lack of.....the bus they ride in isn't free and in fact can cost upwards of $1,500-$2,000 per day including driver and his meals. So when you figure that in....What are you really saving?

And flights are, what, free?

 

[adsfan]

I think that taking the airplane and getting a good night sleep in a hotel and maybe picking up some local girls is much worse than getting 5 hours of sleep and trying to get more sleep on those cramped buses.

Good to see you posting again axe!!

I agree to both parts.

 

[axecrew]

And flights are, what, free?

No....where did I say they were free, but do the math....in the long run the player benefits from more rest by traveling by plane.

 

[axecrew]

Since 2000 it's actually about 50/50, including 4 of the last 5 winners being from the Eastern Conference..

I think I'd rather start the count from when Chicago and the I-6 came into the league because be honest, there really wasn't a real western conference before that anyway.

So starting with 01-02 it breaks down like this....6 teams from the western conference have won...6 from the east BUT the one thing that most of those eastern teams have in common...they were willing to travel...both Philly and Hershey have never had a problem traveling to the west to play games....in fact if memory serves me correctly, the Wolves played Hershey in the playoffs one year because they were in our conference.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Since 2000 it's actually about 50/50, including 4 of the last 5 winners being from the Eastern Conference..

You can't start at 2000, you have to start at 2002 when a true western conference started and it is 6 of 12 but the eastern conference was on a bad streak until the western conference hit it the past 5 years where they lost 4 in a row before winning this past year.

And flights are, what, free?

Flights are not as expensive as you would think. Neither are hotel rooms. Let's go with a 400 round trip ticket and they take 25 peeps, 21 players, 2 trainers, 2 coaches. That's 10 grand per trip airfare. If they play 2 games that is only 5k per game. Buses ain't that much cheaper......

 

[offkilter]

Flights are not as expensive as you would think. Neither are hotel rooms. Let's go with a 400 round trip ticket and they take 25 peeps, 21 players, 2 trainers, 2 coaches. That's 10 grand per trip airfare. If they play 2 games that is only 5k per game. Buses ain't that much cheaper......

You are really low balling the cost of flying. You're really looking at roughly 35-40 people that will be taking that flight.
20 players(4 lines)
2 goalies
3-4 scratched players
2 bench coaches
1 goalie coach
2 scouts
1 replay coach
2 announcers
2 trainers/equipment guys.

Another thing is even though a team flying will most likely 2 nights in the same city on a weekend lowering the cost, that's not always the case, and the costs rise pretty high take San Antonio for example. Their last 4 games were flying up to Rochester for a Friday game, Toronto on Saturday, Hamilton Sunday, then waiting untill Tuesday for a game against Utica.

So
1 air round trip
3 bus trips
5 nights in a hotel

and doesn't count the food.

 

[go comets]

You are really low balling the cost of flying. You're really looking at roughly 35-40 people that will be taking that flight.
20 players(4 lines)
2 goalies
3-4 scratched players
2 bench coaches
1 goalie coach
2 scouts
1 replay coach
2 announcers
2 trainers/equipment guys.

Another thing is even though a team flying will most likely 2 nights in the same city on a weekend lowering the cost, that's not always the case, and the costs rise pretty high take San Antonio for example. Their last 4 games were flying up to Rochester for a Friday game, Toronto on Saturday, Hamilton Sunday, then waiting untill Tuesday for a game against Utica.

So
1 air round trip
3 bus trips
5 nights in a hotel

and doesn't count the food.

that was exactly my point. someone mentioned the food allowance is less for a trip of less than 3.5 hours. for utica alone, 3.5 hours i can be in, rochester, syracuse, bingo, scranton wb, albany, adirondack, springfield and hartford. thats 8 cities. the springfielsd team would i think be closest to the most teams. they are really packed together in mass, conn, RI. and if flying was cheaper, the comets would fly everywhere, but not many teams do unless the have to. and the west cost teams tend to have bigger arenas which in turn would be higher rents.

 

[axecrew]

You are really low balling the cost of flying. You're really looking at roughly 35-40 people that will be taking that flight.
20 players(4 lines)
2 goalies
3-4 scratched players
2 bench coaches
1 goalie coach
2 scouts
1 replay coach
2 announcers
2 trainers/equipment guys.

Another thing is even though a team flying will most likely 2 nights in the same city on a weekend lowering the cost, that's not always the case, and the costs rise pretty high take San Antonio for example. Their last 4 games were flying up to Rochester for a Friday game, Toronto on Saturday, Hamilton Sunday, then waiting untill Tuesday for a game against Utica.

So
1 air round trip
3 bus trips
5 nights in a hotel

and doesn't count the food.

And you are grossly over estimating the cost.....NO AHL team travels with that many team personal....none of them have a "video coach" who travels with them, not too mention no ahl teams travel with "scouts".....I mean come on what the hell are they for, help the team find the bathrooms or popcorn? Not too mention there is going to be a volume discount because these flights were booked in july/ august for march etc. I get it you think it would be expensive but lets not make up things to inflate the cost, truth is its only marginally more expensive to fly and the benefits are greater.

A more realistic rundown of people on the plane would be this....
25 players
2 coaches
3 training staff
1 announcer
and MAYBE..1 team services guy....usually the GM

 

[Nightsquad]

You are really low balling the cost of flying. You're really looking at roughly 35-40 people that will be taking that flight.
20 players(4 lines)
2 goalies
3-4 scratched players
2 bench coaches
1 goalie coach
2 scouts
1 replay coach
2 announcers
2 trainers/equipment guys.

Another thing is even though a team flying will most likely 2 nights in the same city on a weekend lowering the cost, that's not always the case, and the costs rise pretty high take San Antonio for example. Their last 4 games were flying up to Rochester for a Friday game, Toronto on Saturday, Hamilton Sunday, then waiting untill Tuesday for a game against Utica.

So
1 air round trip
3 bus trips
5 nights in a hotel

and doesn't count the food.

Goalie coach, replay coach, scouts, and (2) announcers lol. I can assure you most teams travel with one announcer if they are lucky, Albany doesnt even broadcast their home games. In fact when the Giants or Yankees are playing Albany doesn't even get their road games announced. The Devils barely wanted to have an announcer saying they didnt need one. Albany could be in the Calder Cup finals during the springtime and if the NY Yankees were playing they wouldnt even bother putting the Devils on, sad but true. The Devils have clearly stated they are not in business to win AHL championships but to develop players for Stanley Cup championships.

 

[RFA]

I'm not sure why people post incorrect information. To clarify:

Albany has a video coordinator and announcer who travel. Josh Heller announces all the games on the internet, certain games are also on the radio. I don't recall the video guy's name, but he's running around with a laptop after the period ends.

Most hockey teams in general travel the night before if the trip is 2.5 hours or more.

I think it's safe to add another 0 or move he decimal place to the right one to fly over drive a bus. And the flight cost is added to the bus cost. The host team doesn't pick you up at the baggage claim, you need to rent a bus when you're in the host city. If it was close, and it did help players to develop, more teams would do it. That's the bottom line.

It's tough to say that having a minor league fly around the continent and be successful is possible. I don't think that there is one that has lasted. Even the baseball leagues are broken up geographically.

I would imagine that the eastern teams that won the cup since the IHL teams been accepted has more to do with the owners paying more for players (and possibly refs) and travel rather than them being used to traveling on a plane instead of a bus.

That being said, I don't think that there will be an AHL team in GF next year. I talked to the guy in Albany yesterday and he assured me that the Devils will be there next year, Lou L is reviewing the renewal letter which will go out next week.

 

[MM658]

If it (the cost difference of flying vs. bus) was close, and it did help players to develop, more teams would do it. That's the bottom line.

Above is the key piece of information in the travel discussion.
If air travel and hotel rooms were more desirable than bus trips and one-day trips, we'd see parent clubs trying to locate their affiliate as far from other teams as possible. Instead (with the exception of Abbotsford, for reasons unrelated), we see just the opposite.

RE: Glens Falls -- can't say that I'm surprised. As I posted here last week, it didn't seem possible that they could nab a team for 2014-15, given the timing and the current state of the league.

I think they stand a better chance of success for 2015-16. For one, Springfield's lease runs only through next season, and their season ticket renewal package (their first in the post-Landon era) is far more oriented toward early renewals than it has ever been. It could be that they want to get an earlier-than-usual indication of their '14-'15 STH base, before deciding whether to renew the Springfield lease again or look elsewhere (GF).

 

[go comets]

Goalie coach, replay coach, scouts, and (2) announcers lol. I can assure you most teams travel with one announcer if they are lucky, Albany doesnt even broadcast their home games. In fact when the Giants or Yankees are playing Albany doesn't even get their road games announced. The Devils barely wanted to have an announcer saying they didnt need one. Albany could be in the Calder Cup finals during the springtime and if the NY Yankees were playing they wouldnt even bother putting the Devils on, sad but true. The Devils have clearly stated they are not in business to win AHL championships but to develop players for Stanley Cup championships.

well i dont think any nhl team is in business to win ahl championships. but the devils do not make any attempt to promote their ahl team. they are easily the worst parent team in the league......

and i dont think these mid west fans know how the east coast teams are scheduled. no east coast team travels the day before a game unless its going west. for example providence this weekend is home friday and sunday afternoon and a away in springfield saturday.

next weekend, portland has the same issues, home fri and sunday, at worchester saturday. the east is completly differant from the mid west and western teams. but it is cheaper in the east as teams are almost alwys close to home.

 

[Nightsquad]

I'm not sure why people post incorrect information. To clarify:

Albany has a video coordinator and announcer who travel. Josh Heller announces all the games on the internet, certain games are also on the radio. I don't recall the video guy's name, but he's running around with a laptop after the period ends.

Most hockey teams in general travel the night before if the trip is 2.5 hours or more.

I think it's safe to add another 0 or move he decimal place to the right one to fly over drive a bus. And the flight cost is added to the bus cost. The host team doesn't pick you up at the baggage claim, you need to rent a bus when you're in the host city. If it was close, and it did help players to develop, more teams would do it. That's the bottom line.

It's tough to say that having a minor league fly around the continent and be successful is possible. I don't think that there is one that has lasted. Even the baseball leagues are broken up geographically.

I would imagine that the eastern teams that won the cup since the IHL teams been accepted has more to do with the owners paying more for players (and possibly refs) and travel rather than them being used to traveling on a plane instead of a bus.

That being said, I don't think that there will be an AHL team in GF next year. I talked to the guy in Albany yesterday and he assured me that the Devils will be there next year, Lou L is reviewing the renewal letter which will go out next week.

Well RFA it is fair to say Albany does have an announcer but it doesn't take much to tell Albany does not get most of their games announced. Internet they might yes but what about on the radio. Radio is far from gone from the business. You cannot be on the road driving around an easily hear games on the internet, in fact AHL live if you view the games you have to pay, most NHL/AHL/ECHL teams have a "flagship" radio station to hear the games on while out on the road or maybe if you can catch the game while working. What letter is Lou L supposed to be reviewing???? Its Lou and his Son's way of doing business at the minor league level which is hurting Albany and has already ruined Lowell as a sustainable minor league market. I will say Albany is fortunate to have a team but hurt by the way the Devils do business there currently.

 

[RFA]

I agree it would be nicer if the games were on the radio as well. But the discussion was do they travel with an announcer (and have to pay for him), and the answer is yes.

I was told Lou L is reviewing the letter to renew season tickets for next year. They mail a letter with the information like price, benefits, and deadlines. Why he's reviewing the letter, I don't know. I specifically aksed, and was told that the Devils will not be playing in Glens Falls, and will be playing in Albany next year. So for now, fortunate or not, Albany has a team.

Most teams travel to the away city (or close to it) the night before if the trip is 2.5 hours or more. For example, Hartford will travel to Albany the day of the game, but will travel the night before to Glens Falls. Last time they stayed in Saratoga. The Hartford bus driver told me that three weeks ago.

The geography in the east is totally different. Albany is 4 hours from Portland to the East, 3.5 to Rochester to the West (or Syracuse at just over 2 hours), and then maybe 4 to Hershey to the south. That's the whole conference (minus Norfolk). It's not like a couple teams are close, the whole conference is. Add roughly 45 minutes to those times and that's what you have in Adirondack.

I do think that there is a change in practice times with longer trips, whenever the teams return from Norfolk the coaches will say in the paper that they'd lost practice time.