Who might be moving to Glens Falls?

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Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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You are really low balling the cost of flying. You're really looking at roughly 35-40 people that will be taking that flight.
20 players(4 lines)
2 goalies
3-4 scratched players
2 bench coaches
1 goalie coach
2 scouts
1 replay coach
2 announcers
2 trainers/equipment guys.

Another thing is even though a team flying will most likely 2 nights in the same city on a weekend lowering the cost, that's not always the case, and the costs rise pretty high take San Antonio for example. Their last 4 games were flying up to Rochester for a Friday game, Toronto on Saturday, Hamilton Sunday, then waiting untill Tuesday for a game against Utica.

So
1 air round trip
3 bus trips
5 nights in a hotel

and doesn't count the food.

I travel all the time so I think I know the costs. The biggest thing everyone needs to remeber is that teams are not going to fly from GF to Philly or NYC or Boston or DC to take another flight to Hershey or WBS or Hartford.

And as Axe points out, no one travels with 35 people. You also have to exclude the announcing because that is separate. The Wolves travel and since they televise their games, they bring a production staff. Other teams do not. So apples to apples, stick to the hockey related expenses since those are not really negotiable. The team can always decide not to televise or announce games.

So, 3 coaches, 1 trainer, 1 equipment and 23 players (going by NHL limits they only take 23 players max). 28 peeps.


I'm not sure why people post incorrect information. To clarify:

Albany has a video coordinator and announcer who travel. Josh Heller announces all the games on the internet, certain games are also on the radio. I don't recall the video guy's name, but he's running around with a laptop after the period ends.

Most hockey teams in general travel the night before if the trip is 2.5 hours or more.

I think it's safe to add another 0 or move he decimal place to the right one to fly over drive a bus. And the flight cost is added to the bus cost. The host team doesn't pick you up at the baggage claim, you need to rent a bus when you're in the host city. If it was close, and it did help players to develop, more teams would do it. That's the bottom line.

It's tough to say that having a minor league fly around the continent and be successful is possible. I don't think that there is one that has lasted. Even the baseball leagues are broken up geographically.

I would imagine that the eastern teams that won the cup since the IHL teams been accepted has more to do with the owners paying more for players (and possibly refs) and travel rather than them being used to traveling on a plane instead of a bus.

That being said, I don't think that there will be an AHL team in GF next year. I talked to the guy in Albany yesterday and he assured me that the Devils will be there next year, Lou L is reviewing the renewal letter which will go out next week.

Hotel shuttles? And the host team DOES pick up equipment at the airport for the visiting team. The only reason they need a bus is if they are traveling to other places.

Minor leagues flying around? The entire Western Conference flies and, to be honest, has been more stable in its locations than the eastern conference. Eastern teams that folded since the I joined:

Albany
St. John's
Saint John
Philly
Lowell
Worcester
Quebec


Western Teams
Iowa
Omaha
Houston
Quad City
Utah
Cleveland


Above is the key piece of information in the travel discussion.
If air travel and hotel rooms were more desirable than bus trips and one-day trips, we'd see parent clubs trying to locate their affiliate as far from other teams as possible. Instead (with the exception of Abbotsford, for reasons unrelated), we see just the opposite.

RE: Glens Falls -- can't say that I'm surprised. As I posted here last week, it didn't seem possible that they could nab a team for 2014-15, given the timing and the current state of the league.

I think they stand a better chance of success for 2015-16. For one, Springfield's lease runs only through next season, and their season ticket renewal package (their first in the post-Landon era) is far more oriented toward early renewals than it has ever been. It could be that they want to get an earlier-than-usual indication of their '14-'15 STH base, before deciding whether to renew the Springfield lease again or look elsewhere (GF).

Really? They would try to put their teams as far from one another as possible? They put their teams where they can get a deal and where a city wants a team. And since most of the population of the US is located in the northeastern part of the country it makes sense to put the most teams there.

Which state has the most professional hockey teams? Hint: Not a state in the Northeast.

The reason most teams in the northeast do not fly is because they CAN'T. As I mention above, there are no flights from Rochester to WBS or hershey, etc. and how do you explain Norfolk? They have to fly everywhere yet they have been around quite some time.

And back to GF. It looks like no AHL hockey there next year.......
 

Nightsquad

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Jan 25, 2014
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I agree it would be nicer if the games were on the radio as well. But the discussion was do they travel with an announcer (and have to pay for him), and the answer is yes.

I was told Lou L is reviewing the letter to renew season tickets for next year. They mail a letter with the information like price, benefits, and deadlines. Why he's reviewing the letter, I don't know. I specifically aksed, and was told that the Devils will not be playing in Glens Falls, and will be playing in Albany next year. So for now, fortunate or not, Albany has a team.

Most teams travel to the away city (or close to it) the night before if the trip is 2.5 hours or more. For example, Hartford will travel to Albany the day of the game, but will travel the night before to Glens Falls. Last time they stayed in Saratoga. The Hartford bus driver told me that three weeks ago.

The geography in the east is totally different. Albany is 4 hours from Portland to the East, 3.5 to Rochester to the West (or Syracuse at just over 2 hours), and then maybe 4 to Hershey to the south. That's the whole conference (minus Norfolk). It's not like a couple teams are close, the whole conference is. Add roughly 45 minutes to those times and that's what you have in Adirondack.

I do think that there is a change in practice times with longer trips, whenever the teams return from Norfolk the coaches will say in the paper that they'd lost practice time.

Albany by far has more to offer then Adirondack. Adirondack cant compete with Albany's facilities. Not just seating but my understanding is Albany has out of 30 arena's in the AHL it likely ranks in the top ten of state of the art locker rooms, training rooms, and soon to benefit from an arena upgrade in the tune of 12 to 15 million. Also Albany has suitable practise rinks nearby where the Adirondack Civic Center is the only suitable rink or training facility between Saratoga NY and Plattsburgh NY. Not to mention Albany is an actual city with an airport and train service, I think logistics is what hurts Adirondack nowadays. If Albany was not in the league I cant see fans in Adirondack enjoying the way the Devils do business at the minor league level. Albany and the Devils are kind of stuck with one another lol. The only way I see the Devils doing ok in another market is landing in Trenton NJ and scoring all the fans from Philly when they get the Phantoms back. The Devils need to stay put in Albany, and should re launch their old name Albany River Rats!
 

Nightsquad

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Jan 25, 2014
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I say Albany goes back to those River Rat sweaters with that rat on the front, that logo was awesome. When ever I hear the word Albany that rat comes to mind lol. They put that rat back on the front, and could put that A-Devil logo on the shoulder patches, would be sharp!
 

offkilter

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Jan 18, 2014
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I say Albany goes back to those River Rat sweaters with that rat on the front, that logo was awesome. When ever I hear the word Albany that rat comes to mind lol. They put that rat back on the front, and could put that A-Devil logo on the shoulder patches, would be sharp!

That is never going to happen. Its not the "Devils way of doing things", and their focus is on "growing the Devils brand of hockey". Let me give you a bit of background info for you. I'm from Lowell, I was a season ticket holder from the Lock Monster days untill the team left for Albany. I'm very well aware of how the organisation is run and how they view things. To be blunt they couldn't give a rats piss about what identity was there before them, or how the fans feel. That won't change untill Lameriello, his son, and Cicceri leave.

The only way I see the Devils doing ok in another market is landing in Trenton NJ and scoring all the fans from Philly when they get the Phantoms back.

No. They already drove Trenton into the ground when they purchased the Titans and pulled the same thing they did to Lowell and are doing to Albany. There's also no way the rabid Philly fans who went to see the Phantoms will support a farm club of one of their most hated rivals. Especially now that Leihigh Valley is coming into the league.

Also in case anyone's wonderiing where I got my numbers for the number of people that travel with a team, it comes from my personal experience when I followed the Lowell Devils on a week long 4 game roadtrip to Wilks Barre, Norfolk twice and Hershey during the 07-08 season. The team managed to give us comp tickets and we ended up sitting with the player development scouts, scratched players, and goalie coach Chris Terreri. I also knew the the replay guy Lawerence Feloni because he was always lugging around the big black equipment boxes while I waited by the bus for autographs.
 

Clinton Comets EHL

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Feb 18, 2014
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That is never going to happen. Its not the "Devils way of doing things", and their focus is on "growing the Devils brand of hockey". Let me give you a bit of background info for you. I'm from Lowell, I was a season ticket holder from the Lock Monster days untill the team left for Albany. I'm very well aware of how the organisation is run and how they view things. To be blunt they couldn't give a rats piss about what identity was there before them, or how the fans feel. That won't change untill Lameriello, his son, and Cicceri leave.



No. They already drove Trenton into the ground when they purchased the Titans and pulled the same thing they did to Lowell and are doing to Albany. There's also no way the rabid Philly fans who went to see the Phantoms will support a farm club of one of their most hated rivals. Especially now that Leihigh Valley is coming into the league.

Also in case anyone's wonderiing where I got my numbers for the number of people that travel with a team, it comes from my personal experience when I followed the Lowell Devils on a week long 4 game roadtrip to Wilks Barre, Norfolk twice and Hershey during the 07-08 season. The team managed to give us comp tickets and we ended up sitting with the player development scouts, scratched players, and goalie coach Chris Terreri. I also knew the the replay guy Lawerence Feloni because he was always lugging around the big black equipment boxes while I waited by the bus for autographs.

This is right on. The Devils were in Utica from 87-93. Had 12 sellouts in 6 years. Then Lou L. sold us out. Loved the players and Tommy McVie during his 3.5 seasons coaching here but NJ left a bad taste.

The Comets already have 9 in their 1st season with 11 games left....including 4 0f the last 5.
 

Clinton Comets EHL

Registered User
Feb 18, 2014
1,387
326
I travel all the time so I think I know the costs. The biggest thing everyone needs to remeber is that teams are not going to fly from GF to Philly or NYC or Boston or DC to take another flight to Hershey or WBS or Hartford.

And as Axe points out, no one travels with 35 people. You also have to exclude the announcing because that is separate. The Wolves travel and since they televise their games, they bring a production staff. Other teams do not. So apples to apples, stick to the hockey related expenses since those are not really negotiable. The team can always decide not to televise or announce games.

So, 3 coaches, 1 trainer, 1 equipment and 23 players (going by NHL limits they only take 23 players max). 28 peeps.




Hotel shuttles? And the host team DOES pick up equipment at the airport for the visiting team. The only reason they need a bus is if they are traveling to other places.

Minor leagues flying around? The entire Western Conference flies and, to be honest, has been more stable in its locations than the eastern conference. Eastern teams that folded since the I joined:

Albany
St. John's
Saint John
Philly
Lowell
Worcester
Quebec


Western Teams
Iowa
Omaha
Houston
Quad City
Utah
Cleveland




Really? They would try to put their teams as far from one another as possible? They put their teams where they can get a deal and where a city wants a team. And since most of the population of the US is located in the northeastern part of the country it makes sense to put the most teams there.

Which state has the most professional hockey teams? Hint: Not a state in the Northeast.

The reason most teams in the northeast do not fly is because they CAN'T. As I mention above, there are no flights from Rochester to WBS or hershey, etc. and how do you explain Norfolk? They have to fly everywhere yet they have been around quite some time.

And back to GF. It looks like no AHL hockey there next year.......


I think if you check no teams have folded...only been moved.

NHL teams want their players to practice more and not be in airports and planes so much.

To say that flying is reasonable as a cost compared to bussing is silly. Really? The Comets are within 4.5 hours of all the NYS teams, WBS, Hershey, Springfield, Bridgeport, Providence, Hamilton, Toronto and Worcester. Portland is about 6-6.5 hrs. Allentown as well next year.

There is no way it is cheaper to fly to Vancouver (Abbottsford), Chicago, 2 Texas, Okc, Milwaukee, Des Moines etc.

The East indeed is a different Beast. Wish the conferences were unbalanced 18-12 or what would ever work. The Eastern teams would spend few nights in hotels and more practice times to develop NHL prospects.

Let the West teams have their rivalries. East theirs. Wouldn't care if we ever played Western teams.
 

AHLFAN

Registered User
Mar 10, 2008
50
5
Shrewsbury, PA
State with most pro teams.

New York with 10

NHL: Buffalo, New York Rangers and Islanders

AHL: Binghamton, Utica, Syracuse, Rochester, Adirondack

ECHL: Elmira

FHL: Watertown
 

go comets

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Jul 10, 2013
3,532
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This is right on. The Devils were in Utica from 87-93. Had 12 sellouts in 6 years. Then Lou L. sold us out. Loved the players and Tommy McVie during his 3.5 seasons coaching here but NJ left a bad taste.

The Comets already have 9 in their 1st season with 11 games left....including 4 0f the last 5.
i agree, the devils were a complete train wreck when is came to promoting their hockey team. for some reason they just thought people were going to show up. i remember the last season the devils were here. i was coaching youth hockey and we had a sectional tournament in whitestown. two devils people show up around 2 in the afternoon trying to sell tickets for that nights game. i told them everyone here is in this tournament and are busy. i just got dumb looks back. i tried to explain that anyone with a child in hockey has two practices a week and games on the weekends, and would only be able to attend devils games sparadicly. the devils had no in game interaction with fans, the food consisted of hot dogs/nachos and popcorn. just a poorly run team. worst thing that ever happened to utica hockey.
 

MM658

Registered User
Feb 7, 2011
192
2
Springfield, MA area
Really? They would try to put their teams as far from one another as possible? They put their teams where they can get a deal and where a city wants a team. And since most of the population of the US is located in the northeastern part of the country it makes sense to put the most teams there.
My comment was sarcasm, to prove a point. The point being: you never hear of a parent club wanting to locate their farm club in the Western Conference specifically so that their prospects will get used to air travel and hotels. But you DO hear of NHL teams wanting to locate their affiliate in the East due to the reduced travel and more time "at home" (practice time, sleeping in their own beds, etc.). Bottom line: if the air-travel life was "better" as you seem to strongly imply, we'd see parent clubs trying to find locations for their prospects that would foster that. We don't. Facts trump opinions.

The reason most teams in the northeast do not fly is because they CAN'T. As I mention above, there are no flights from Rochester to WBS or hershey, etc.
Because they can't? Or because it doesn't make sense? Are you implying that if Binghamton had a choice of flying to Worcester or driving there, they'd fly? If so, I find that comical, given the cost differential.

And back to GF. It looks like no AHL hockey there next year.......
Agreed! :5:
 

Tommy Hawk

Registered User
May 27, 2006
4,223
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My comment was sarcasm, to prove a point. The point being: you never hear of a parent club wanting to locate their farm club in the Western Conference specifically so that their prospects will get used to air travel and hotels. But you DO hear of NHL teams wanting to locate their affiliate in the East due to the reduced travel and more time "at home" (practice time, sleeping in their own beds, etc.). Bottom line: if the air-travel life was "better" as you seem to strongly imply, we'd see parent clubs trying to find locations for their prospects that would foster that. We don't. Facts trump opinions.

Because they can't? Or because it doesn't make sense? Are you implying that if Binghamton had a choice of flying to Worcester or driving there, they'd fly? If so, I find that comical, given the cost differential.

Agreed! :5:

The practice time is the exact same, whether they are at home or on the road.

And the NHL puts their prospects wherever they have their affiliation, whichever wherever they get the most money. Why do you think there were 7 or 8 teams that wanted to affiliate when the Wolves and Atlanta were finsihed? Levin pays MILLIONS for his affiliation fee where these other teams pay way less. Why do you think Calgary keeps their affiliation in Abbotsford? They get MILLIONS from the city.

And Worcester folded. As did Lowell Lock Monsters. As did Quebec. As did Saint John. They all folded. IF they ain't there, they folded. Using your logic, because the AHL license never gets eliminated, no team ever folds.


Texas had the most teams for a about 8 or 9 years in a row.

And still no one is going to Glens Falls!!
 

Nightsquad

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Jan 25, 2014
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That is never going to happen. Its not the "Devils way of doing things", and their focus is on "growing the Devils brand of hockey". Let me give you a bit of background info for you. I'm from Lowell, I was a season ticket holder from the Lock Monster days untill the team left for Albany. I'm very well aware of how the organisation is run and how they view things. To be blunt they couldn't give a rats piss about what identity was there before them, or how the fans feel. That won't change untill Lameriello, his son, and Cicceri leave.



No. They already drove Trenton into the ground when they purchased the Titans and pulled the same thing they did to Lowell and are doing to Albany. There's also no way the rabid Philly fans who went to see the Phantoms will support a farm club of one of their most hated rivals. Especially now that Leihigh Valley is coming into the league.


Also in case anyone's wonderiing where I got my numbers for the number of people that travel with a team, it comes from my personal experience when I followed the Lowell Devils on a week long 4 game roadtrip to Wilks Barre, Norfolk twice and Hershey during the 07-08 season. The team managed to give us comp tickets and we ended up sitting with the player development scouts, scratched players, and goalie coach Chris Terreri. I also knew the the replay guy Lawerence Feloni because he was always lugging around the big black equipment boxes while I waited by the bus for autographs.

LOL you going to educate me, give me a little background info lol, I don't think so. [mod] Why, because of the substantial cost savings and the fact its their goal to keep the orgnaization in their region. Still have doubts, do you think they are doing the Atlantic City games just for kicks. Another thing you are totally wrong about is the fact Flyers/Phantoms fans WILL make the very short trip
to Trenton, the Devils know that fans from Allentown/Philly will fill the arena in Trenton on a regular basis not to mention most of the fans at the game last night in Atlantic city were from PA. Just because as a kid who went on four game road trip as a kid for the Lowell Devils you waited as such for autographs hardly makes you knowledgeable on the business end of minor league hockey. Lowell was a train wreck from day one, Lowell should not have entered the AHL unless the old Lock Monsters could have been affiliated with the Bruins or as an ECHL club affiliated with Providence and Boston.
 
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go comets

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Jul 10, 2013
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LOL you going to educate me, give me a little background info lol, I don't think so. [MOD]. Why, because of the substantial cost savings and the fact its their goal to keep the orgnaization in their region. Still have doubts, do you think they are doing the Atlantic City games just for kicks. Another thing you are totally wrong about is the fact Flyers/Phantoms fans WILL make the very short trip
to Trenton, the Devils know that fans from Allentown/Philly will fill the arena in Trenton on a regular basis not to mention most of the fans at the game last night in Atlantic city were from PA. Just because as a kid who went on four game road trip as a kid for the Lowell Devils you waited as such for autographs hardly makes you knowledgeable on the business end of minor league hockey. Lowell was a train wreck from day one, Lowell should not have entered the AHL unless the old Lock Monsters could have been affiliated with the Bruins or as an ECHL club affiliated with Providence and Boston.
who a ahl city is affliated with really has nothing to do with fan support except for a few isolated instances. hershey draws no matter who the parent club is, syracuse binghamton, and the rest of the ny teams the same. i can understand abbotsfords mess, but they caused that themselves.if the devils were involved with lowell then there is the problem. they did the same in utica and again doing it it albany. affiliates dont matter, its the fan support that does matter.
 
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offkilter

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Jan 18, 2014
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LOL you going to educate me, give me a little background info lol, I don't think so. [mod] Why, because of the substantial cost savings and the fact its their goal to keep the orgnaization in their region. Still have doubts, do you think they are doing the Atlantic City games just for kicks. Another thing you are totally wrong about is the fact Flyers/Phantoms fans WILL make the very short trip
to Trenton, the Devils know that fans from Allentown/Philly will fill the arena in Trenton on a regular basis not to mention most of the fans at the game last night in Atlantic city were from PA. Just because as a kid who went on four game road trip as a kid for the Lowell Devils you waited as such for autographs hardly makes you knowledgeable on the business end of minor league hockey. Lowell was a train wreck from day one, Lowell should not have entered the AHL unless the old Lock Monsters could have been affiliated with the Bruins or as an ECHL club affiliated with Providence and Boston.

[MOD] By the way I'm no kid and what makes you anymore knowledgable of the business side of hockey?

The Atlantic city thing doesn't surprise me. They were doing that even during the Lowell years, and guess what? They moved to Albany. They would have stayed in Lowell too had Marty Meehan the Chancellor of UMass Lowell had not bought the Tsongas Arena from the city and asked for an insane amount of money in rent.

I find it funny that the ideal description you described for Trenton is an exact mirror for what happened in Lowell, and you call Lowell a trainwreck. Trenton should not enter the AHL unless its affiliated with the Flyers or as an ECHL team for Allentown and Philly. The only time a Devils affiliated Trenton would draw is if they played aganst the Phantoms which is exactly what happened when Lowell played Providence. Every other game you would be lucky to draw 2,000. Trenton despite being in the state of New Jersey is firmly Philadelphia Flyers territory, and that's not going to change.
 
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210

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The practice time is the exact same, whether they are at home or on the road.

And the NHL puts their prospects wherever they have their affiliation, whichever wherever they get the most money. Why do you think there were 7 or 8 teams that wanted to affiliate when the Wolves and Atlanta were finsihed? Levin pays MILLIONS for his affiliation fee where these other teams pay way less. Why do you think Calgary keeps their affiliation in Abbotsford? They get MILLIONS from the city.

And Worcester folded. As did Lowell Lock Monsters. As did Quebec. As did Saint John. They all folded. IF they ain't there, they folded. Using your logic, because the AHL license never gets eliminated, no team ever folds.


Texas had the most teams for a about 8 or 9 years in a row.

And still no one is going to Glens Falls!!

Worcester didn't "fold". The Blues no longer wanted to own the franchise, lied about not being able to find local buyers (within 24 hours of the sale/move being announced three prospective local groups identified themselves as having asked if the Blues were interested in selling the franchise and the Blues blew them off), and sold the IceCats to folks in Peoria they had done business with before.

Ironically, the same thing happened to them in Peoria...they ended up owning a team they didn't want, and sold it to someone that moved it even though there was (at least based on the reports) a local group that was interested in buying the team.

And Texas has never had the most AHL teams.
 

Nightsquad

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Jan 25, 2014
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who a ahl city is affliated with really has nothing to do with fan support except for a few isolated instances. hershey draws no matter who the parent club is, syracuse binghamton, and the rest of the ny teams the same. i can understand abbotsfords mess, but they caused that themselves.if the devils were involved with lowell then there is the problem. they did the same in utica and again doing it it albany. affiliates dont matter, its the fan support that does matter.

Actually I tend to disagree, in today's AHL unlike the one you knew back in the 1990s and prior your affiliation can mean alot. Would Hershey draw as well if they were affiliated with someone like lets say the Devils. The fans in Hershey would stop going if they missed the playoffs as many times as the Devils farm teams have over the last decade. Hershey has the ability with agreement from the Capitals to sign a number of their own strong career minor league players. If their team was micro managed in the way the Devils do to their AHL team or like some others would they have the support, I tend to not think so. Strong attendance I am sure but to the likes of 7k or 8K I doubt. Binghamton is a very small barn but they have had some strong teams including the past few years, if they were affiliated with the Rangers again and made the playoffs I bet you they would have even stronger attendance. Rochester another prime example, since being affiliated with Buffalo again they easily improved their attendance from when they were affiliated with Florida those few years. Rochester easily picked up their average attendance again by well in excess of over 1000 to 2000 fans per game. I strongly believe Lowell was a victim of the NJ Devils way of business. The Lock Monsters affiliated with Carolina and even the Islanders atleast drew alot stronger. Introduce the Devils and they really socked it to a great hockey area. Had the Lowell Lock Monsters been affiliated with Boston or were the Lowell Bruins, you would be hard pressed to get a ticket. Maybe in a new hockey market or a market new to the AHL the affiliation might not mean alot but there is substantial proof down the road that a strong affiliation between the AHL franchise and NHL club is very important. Utica is new to the new AHL, much has changed in the way business is done then it was back in early 1990s and prior to. There is a strong debate in New York's Capital Region that maybe Albany County should try and strongly pursue the NY Rangers to place their AHL team here. People there claim that would be the ultimate fit for Albany. That part of New York has a strong mix of mostly NY Ranger,and Boston Bruins fan. When the Rangers played the Devils in a pre season game in Albany couple years back roughly 10,000 fans showed up in the middle of the week for what was basically a glorified AHL game. Tickets for that game were no less then $30 for upper level seats. Ranger fans outnumbered Devils fans 2 to 1 easily. Affiliation and the relationship plays a big role. We will see how Utica is, right now its a relatively new thing for Utica. That area is a strong hockey market, especially the Utica Pioneers do very well, but if Vancouver does not care to improve the product you will see Comet fan support dwindle to what the Devils, Blizzard, Bulldogs, or Prowlers once had. The Comet's Ownership group will have little control or say in what Vancouver provides on the ice without much ability to change the situation because it will fall upon deaf ears, that is the way things are for the most part in the new AHL.
 
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Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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Worcester didn't "fold". The Blues no longer wanted to own the franchise, lied about not being able to find local buyers (within 24 hours of the sale/move being announced three prospective local groups identified themselves as having asked if the Blues were interested in selling the franchise and the Blues blew them off), and sold the IceCats to folks in Peoria they had done business with before.

Ironically, the same thing happened to them in Peoria...they ended up owning a team they didn't want, and sold it to someone that moved it even though there was (at least based on the reports) a local group that was interested in buying the team.

And Texas has never had the most AHL teams.

So the Ice Cats existed, then they didn't. That's called FOLDING!!!

And no one ever said the most AHL teams, I said most PROFESSIONAL teams. At one point in time i think they had 18 of them. The AHL sucks plain and simple. And with the various things going on in Canada with the CHL, the AHL will end up being no better than junior or college hockey since by the time the kids are 23 they will be considered veterans, but that is a different thread.

And as for Glens Falls, STILL no one going there????
 

offkilter

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Jan 18, 2014
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So the Ice Cats existed, then they didn't. That's called FOLDING!!!

Tommy Hawk you may find this inconcievable, but I don't think that word means what you think it means. ;)

To fold a franchise means to permanently go out of business and turn over franchise license to the league. For example the San Francisco Bulls folding mid season and going out of busines, or the Fresno Falcons a couple years before. The AHL's Iowa Chops having their franchise revoked by the league are another example of a team folding.

The correct term is relocation. For example the Hartford Whalers moving to Carolina. They are still the same franchise and same owner, but different city. The original Winnipeg Jets are another example, they never went out of business just moved to another city. Same with the Atlanta Flames and Thrashers both were sold to new owners and moved.

And no one ever said the most AHL teams, I said most PROFESSIONAL teams. At one point in time i think they had 18 of them. The AHL sucks plain and simple. And with the various things going on in Canada with the CHL, the AHL will end up being no better than junior or college hockey since by the time the kids are 23 they will be considered veterans, but that is a different thread.

I would appreciate if you could enlighten me to this "various things going on in Canada" because I'm not sure anyone really gets what you are talking about. That aside, if you think the AHL sucks why are wasting precious time and effort going on about it? Isn't there something more constructive you could do? By the way there are now only 4 pro hockey teams left in Texas including the NHL team.

And as for Glens Falls, STILL no one going there????

As of right now no, but the season's not over with and something could still change. I wouldn't say Glen Falls is DOA untill sometime maybe in early summer, maybe a little earlier like near the end of the playoffs.
 

go comets

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Jul 10, 2013
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Actually I tend to disagree, in today's AHL unlike the one you knew back in the 1990s and prior your affiliation can mean alot. Would Hershey draw as well if they were affiliated with someone like lets say the Devils. The fans in Hershey would stop going if they missed the playoffs as many times as the Devils farm teams have over the last decade. Hershey has the ability with agreement from the Capitals to sign a number of their own strong career minor league players. If their team was micro managed in the way the Devils do to their AHL team or like some others would they have the support, I tend to not think so. Strong attendance I am sure but to the likes of 7k or 8K I doubt. Binghamton is a very small barn but they have had some strong teams including the past few years, if they were affiliated with the Rangers again and made the playoffs I bet you they would have even stronger attendance. Rochester another prime example, since being affiliated with Buffalo again they easily improved their attendance from when they were affiliated with Florida those few years. Rochester easily picked up their average attendance again by well in excess of over 1000 to 2000 fans per game. I strongly believe Lowell was a victim of the NJ Devils way of business. The Lock Monsters affiliated with Carolina and even the Islanders atleast drew alot stronger. Introduce the Devils and they really socked it to a great hockey area. Had the Lowell Lock Monsters been affiliated with Boston or were the Lowell Bruins, you would be hard pressed to get a ticket. Maybe in a new hockey market or a market new to the AHL the affiliation might not mean alot but there is substantial proof down the road that a strong affiliation between the AHL franchise and NHL club is very important. Utica is new to the new AHL, much has changed in the way business is done then it was back in early 1990s and prior to. There is a strong debate in New York's Capital Region that maybe Albany County should try and strongly pursue the NY Rangers to place their AHL team here. People there claim that would be the ultimate fit for Albany. That part of New York has a strong mix of mostly NY Ranger,and Boston Bruins fan. When the Rangers played the Devils in a pre season game in Albany couple years back roughly 10,000 fans showed up in the middle of the week for what was basically a glorified AHL game. Tickets for that game were no less then $30 for upper level seats. Ranger fans outnumbered Devils fans 2 to 1 easily. Affiliation and the relationship plays a big role. We will see how Utica is, right now its a relatively new thing for Utica. That area is a strong hockey market, especially the Utica Pioneers do very well, but if Vancouver does not care to improve the product you will see Comet fan support dwindle to what the Devils, Blizzard, Bulldogs, or Prowlers once had. The Comet's Ownership group will have little control or say in what Vancouver provides on the ice without much ability to change the situation because it will fall upon deaf ears, that is the way things are for the most part in the new AHL.

Well I did say a few isolated instances. Anything involving the devils doesn't even count. And basically winning solves a lot of problems........and from what I can tell, all ahl teams can and do sign a few players for emergency cases. The comets themselves have about 5 including 2 that play regularly.
 

210

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So the Ice Cats existed, then they didn't. That's called FOLDING!!!

And no one ever said the most AHL teams, I said most PROFESSIONAL teams. At one point in time i think they had 18 of them. The AHL sucks plain and simple. And with the various things going on in Canada with the CHL, the AHL will end up being no better than junior or college hockey since by the time the kids are 23 they will be considered veterans, but that is a different thread.

And as for Glens Falls, STILL no one going there????

The IceCats franchise still exists, it's called the Utica Comets now.

Your post was about the AHL, so I presumed that was what that comment was about. [mod] You'll note that Texas, who had that many teams because of several low level minor league teams essentially setting up a league there, doesn't have that many teams anymore.
 
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Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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The IceCats franchise still exists, it's called the Utica Comets now.

Your post was about the AHL, so I presumed that was what that comment was about. You'll forgive me for not rushing back and reading every single misinformed post you make. You'll note that Texas, who had that many teams because of several low level minor league teams essentially setting up a league there, doesn't have that many teams anymore.

[mod]

And the Ice Cats FOLDED. They do not exist any more. The Utica Comets are not the Ice Cats. The franchise does NOT exist. NONE of those franchises exist any more. Your argument equates to saying the Mobil gas station on the corner closes because it is being torn down to put a road through sells his license to someone who then opens up an Exxon station 2,000 miles away and saying it is still that Mobil Station that was torn down. Your logic dictates that no team ever folds and if they stop playing ala Edmonton and Iowa those teams never really folded, they just stopped.

However, using your argument, the Iowa Stars folded. Their original license no longer exists, they do not own it and cannot reactivate it.

How about this wording then - The LEGAL ENTITY that owned the Ice Cats, and all those other teams, FOLDED.
 
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No Fun Shogun

34-38-61-10-13-15
May 1, 2011
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Everybody, play nice, don't insult others or their opinions when having a debate, and don't claim inside knowledge of a situation if you can't back it up with proof.
 

Nightsquad

Registered User
Jan 25, 2014
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Well I did say a few isolated instances. Anything involving the devils doesn't even count. And basically winning solves a lot of problems........and from what I can tell, all ahl teams can and do sign a few players for emergency cases. The comets themselves have about 5 including 2 that play regularly.

Well, like I mentioned I think affiliations are now more then ever have become more important to an AHL teams success. Not just on the ice (although stronger teams do help) but in those market with strong influence from nearby NHL teams. The 5 players you mentioned for the Comets, are they five free agents signed by the ownership group and allowed to be on the roster by Vancouver or are the 5 signed by Vancouver themselves? The teams like Hershey and Chicago who have the strongest attendance were often allowed by their respective parent clubs to do those types of deals. I dont know why you say anything involving the Devils don't count. Last time I checked they were an NHL and AHL organization despite doing business much different then anyone else. More and more NHL teams have been slowly creeping towards some of New Jersey's bad habbits of doing their business at the AHL level. Sometimes it looks as though the Devils don't want success in Albany that way come tax time they have a good loss to write off lol.
 

210

Registered User
Mar 5, 2003
12,393
961
Worcester, MA
210sportsblog.com
[mod]

And the Ice Cats FOLDED. They do not exist any more. The Utica Comets are not the Ice Cats. The franchise does NOT exist. NONE of those franchises exist any more. Your argument equates to saying the Mobil gas station on the corner closes because it is being torn down to put a road through sells his license to someone who then opens up an Exxon station 2,000 miles away and saying it is still that Mobil Station that was torn down. Your logic dictates that no team ever folds and if they stop playing ala Edmonton and Iowa those teams never really folded, they just stopped.

However, using your argument, the Iowa Stars folded. Their original license no longer exists, they do not own it and cannot reactivate it.

How about this wording then - The LEGAL ENTITY that owned the Ice Cats, and all those other teams, FOLDED.

The legal entity that owned the IceCats was the St Louis Blues. I'm fairly certain they still exist.
 
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