Who is the 2nd best offensive player in the league?

[Echo Roku]

Mackinnon?

lol.

Do know if you respond to this I’ll know if you haven’t read it, it’s not terribly long, but s bit lengthy as it’s got oh so many good things to show. So please if you do respond take the time to read this or I’ll just ignore, thanks.


If Mackinnon is infact in a tier diffeeent then Matthews,.....then it’s the one below him.

Five seasons and only once has he had a points per game average m over 0.80. You could argue he’s one below Eichel too, unless he comes back with a near PPG season because of Eichel has do lne it in two of his first three years, (0.94, 0.95) both of which playing after a serious high ankle sprain that is known to linger for months. Jack outscored Mack in 16-17 despite playing two less months and Mackinnon got 53 pts in a full year. Lol, Eichel got 57 points in just 61 games kid (all of which right after injury) in his second year. Mackinnon was in his fourth.

Even with eichel being Injured and missing significant time on a dead last offense, HE still has 121 pts in his last 128 games. If you count Mackinnon he only put up 53 pts in 2016-2017 in a full year too when he had that number. Then he puts up his great year 97 last year in 74 games So that means he had 150 pts in his last 156 games. Meaning if you calculate how much it would of been in his last 128 it Would be a lot lower then 150, meaning Eichel May of even had more points (as he has 121) it’s probably close then him during that stretch. It shouldn’t even be close though so even if he’s within 20 it’s still great for Eichel since that’s his only great season. I could compare the two guys first theree year totals pts and it’s not close POints per game wise especially. He’s being blown away by both men when u compare production PPG at similar ages.

Eichel has had his best two seasons (of his 3’) at 0.95 PPG and Matthews has two seasons, one each at 0.84 and 1.02 PPG it should also be noted, these are the first two and three years for both these guys respectively and have played after injuries yet those numbers are still very good. Remember Mackinnon has only had one year in five over 0.80.

Mackinnon for being number 1 overall (and how he’s talked about here) he’s produced from pretty god to average-poor in the first four years of his career. In fact In eichels worst year he still got 3 pts more then Mackinnon in his fourth and eichel was just 19 In his rookie season. In fact Mackinnon has only beaten eichels worst total in 2 of is fiddt 5 seasons, and eichel has had two of his first three seasons with better production then any Mackinnon season except the last when he’s had rantanen. Eichel has never had a teammate or linemate who’s ever out up points like that
Matthews has even scored 40 goals at 18-19 in his rookie season and again hasn’t produced lower then 0.84, a feat so high Mack’s reached it just once in 5 years!

So again Mackinnon has had one year of dominance, and we’re going to be putting this guy in a tier with Crosby above the two others Eich and Matthews who already produce way better most years at a way younger age? Give me a break.

I will say this if Mackinnon comes back with a PPG year or more that would be 2 out of 6 really good seasons, which still isn’t that great but it would take Eichel and Matthews to both fall off the earth this year and Mackinnon to go PPG for him to be ahead of them much less with them.

I have no problem putting him in their “tier” but to suggest he’s ahead of two Guys who have done nothing but produce at a young age after one good season is completely ridiculous. I don’t even care how dominant that season was and it was very. Won’t take that away from him. I just don’t see why his previous four years suddenly count for nothing?

AKA, you’ve almost never watched MacKinnon play

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

AKA, you’ve almost never watched MacKinnon play

How do you know? You made the same assumption with me as a response to a fairly reasonable stance. lmao.

 

[Echo Roku]

How do you know? You made the same assumption with me as a response to a fairly reasonable stance. lmao.

Right, which you clearly didn’t even with your response.

I’ve seen a lot of opinions on Nate, and there’s typically two opinions I’ve seen

There are people who base their opinion on his actual game and watching him play, often including before this year, and those opinions are always doubtful on significant regression. At least those I’ve seen so far.

Then there are the ones that rattle off the previous season stats, but have nothing resembling actual observations or logic born from watching him play. They don’t account for the why or how he broke out this last year. They just account for the fact that it happened. And these are the only ones I’ve seen that actually think the last season is an anomaly

His is like that, as was yours. It has basically no opinion on his actual game, and just rattles off statistics ignoring the context created by actually watching him play

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

It's Crosby

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

Right, which you clearly didn’t even with your response.

I’ve seen a lot of opinions on Nate, and there’s typically two opinions I’ve seen

There are people who base their opinion on his actual game and watching him play, often including before this year, and those opinions are always doubtful on significant regression. At least those I’ve seen so far.

Then there are the ones that rattle off the previous season stats, but have nothing resembling actual observations or logic born from watching him play. They don’t account for the why or how he broke out this last year. They just account for the fact that it happened. And these are the only ones I’ve seen that actually think the last season is an anomaly

His is like that, as was yours. It has basically no opinion on his actual game, and just rattles off statistics ignoring the context created by actually watching him play

Anomaly is his shooting percentage almost double last season relative to his past seasons, more powerplay opportunities and points, career years from his linemates.

Nevermind the fact that almost no player sees an increase in points from 53 to 97 after his team finished dead last the season before.

We will see how he does this up coming season, his play will either keep these skeptics away or prove them right.

 

[Echo Roku]

Anomaly is his shooting percentage almost double last season relative to his past seasons, more powerplay opportunities and points, career years from his linemates.

Nevermind the fact that almost no player sees an increase in points from 53 to 97 after his team finished dead last the season before.

We will see how he does this up coming season, his play will either keep these skeptics away or prove them right.

Even from a contextless perspective on why those changes happened, that does make much sense.

His shooting percentage was abnormally low before given his skill level. It actually is much closer to the norm now. The more logical explanation is that he worked something out in his game that was holding him back

Claiming career years from linemates doesn’t seem based on anything but they had good years, either.

The pp stuff makes no sense either, since the team plays a fast style that naturally creates more PP opportunities

Even his increase in production makes plenty of sense, when you account for the change of team success and the conclusion gained from the shooting percentage.

If you really think it’s an anomaly, then tell me this. What changed in his game to create the change in production?

Do you even know that much? While talking about all this differences in stats between seasons?

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

Even from a contextless perspective on why those changes happened, that does make much sense.

His shooting percentage was abnormally low before given his skill level. It actually is much closer to the norm now. The more logical explanation is that he worked something out in his game that was holding him back

Claiming career years from linemates doesn’t seem based on anything but they had good years, either.

The pp stuff makes no sense either, since the team plays a fast style that naturally creates more PP opportunities

Even his increase in production makes plenty of sense, when you account for the change of team success and the conclusion gained from the shooting percentage.

If you really think it’s an anomaly, then tell me this. What changed in his game to create the change in production?

Do you even know that much? While talking about all this differences in stats between seasons?

That 40 point increase in production while impressive is by definition an anomaly and was not expected by anybody. It will continue to be until the sky high point totals he got too will be reached again, or at least get close too. It wasn't his physical attributes as they were always there. His speed, shot etc. It just wasn't all put together until last season, I seen a clip months ago where MacKinnon stated it was his improved mental game that attributed to his break out season.

MacKinnon credits improved mental game for break out season - Sportsnet.ca

 

[Echo Roku]

It wasn't his physical attributes as they were always there. His speed, shot etc. It just wasn't all put together until last season, I seen a clip months ago where MacKinnon stated it was his improved mental game that attributed to his break out season. ill see if i can find it.

MacKinnon credits improved mental game for break out season - Sportsnet.ca

Exactly. He basically stopped trying so hard to be creating offense out of nothing and learned how to pace his efforts to be more opportunistic

Which is why people who base their opinion on his actual play tend to not think he’ll regress significantly if at all.

That sort of change doesn’t just go away.

 

[Oilers Propagandist]

Exactly. He basically stopped trying so hard to be creating offense out of nothing and learned how to pace his efforts to be more opportunistic

Which is why people who base their opinion on his actual play tend to not think he’ll regress significantly if at all.

That sort of change doesn’t just go away.

I agree with your assertion, but I have to see more body of work from him for me to fully be on the bandwagon. That's a reasonable stance, no?

 

[Echo Roku]

I agree with your assertion, but I have to see more body of work from him for me to fully be on the bandwagon. That's a reasonable stance, no?

A reasonable stance... if there was a reasonable reason to believe it.

And you don’t really seem to have one.

No one is saying you have to believe he’ll be McDavid levels of production through the rest of his career. Or that you have to believe anything.

But you’re trying to prop up the seasons before as the norm to expect. And you don’t even seem to have any reasons left to believe that other than the possibility

Simple as that

 

[Tage2Tuch]

AKA, you’ve almost never watched MacKinnon play

I watched him not very much in his first few seasons I did a lot in his rookie year wher he was pretty good for sure and last year phenomenal. Last year he was like Matthews and eichel combined, on steroids ....he was amazing with the speed, skill and creativity. I hear carried teams to the playoffs and it’s a cliche bur some players do like hasek and price and such, Mackinnon truly did. While there were still some other great avs most times like rantanen landedkog Barrie kerfoot Varlamov, that’s why mackinnon was nominated.

All I’m saying is you have to still be accountable for your career. I mean is Claude giroux all of the sudden the next best player in the league after mcdavid? How about hall is he now too five?

Is William karlsson going to be a rocket contender every year? But Mackinnon I mean One season .....Come on 53 pts in 82 games. That’s absolutely
Dissapointing and a pretty bad total for a guy in his fourth year taken number one overall and won rookie of the year. Like I’ve said Eichel in his second year didn’t start playing until December that year and outscored him by four points without a player like landeskog and such to play with. Nevermind rantanen. Not saying Eichel is better but there not far off, close rookie years, and we’ll eichels production blows Mackinnon awAy so far in his second and third when you compare PPG, eichel had 0.95 with two sprained ankles, no support around him. It’s safe to say Eichel will have a better fourth year too since all he needs is 53 pts and has never had a total that low despite missing a quarter of the year 2/3 seasons. Anyway I’ll still put Mackinnon ahead because of his amazing year last season but not by much, same tier of player like Matthews and scheifele Barkov Bergeron. However if Eichel has an awful season and Mackinnon comes close or does what he did last year or even better then I’d say sure he is probavly a tier ahead.

Last season was amazing, but like Barzal I want to see morenfhen one amazing teams because in my 30 years I’ve seen many come with an anomaly season. Dont think that happens with either guy especially Mack. To me he should of won the hart. I get What hall did but that guy lead the team to the show up doubt.

I’m just saying your other years still matter and we can’t base everything on last season. Where he was godly. But now he’s the 3rd best player? It’s a bit much. If he does it again I’ll have no issue naming him a top ten player.

Mcdavid
Crosby
Malkin
Ovehkin
Karlsson
Kucherov
Hedman
Doughty
Kopitar
Bergeron
Stamkos
Scheifele
Wheeler
Barkov
Tavares
Josi
Matthews
Eichel
Petriangelo
Burns
Gaudreau
Hall
P. Kane
Kessel
Forsberg
Kessel
Getlaf
Tarasenko
Laine
Marchessault




I mean there’s thirtyish names not necessarily in order after the first ten guys off the top of my head. So I’m missing some but like I said top of my head.


Is he comfortably better then all of them but two? I know that’s just TSN but that’s what I’m referring to is he hype. I just want to seee if he can have a season even close to last year and if he does that will be two tremendous seasons, a pretty good rookie season and a few other mediocre to bleh ones. 2/6 isn’t great but if it’s the past two seasons? Well then thats different and he would deserve all the praise. Still deserves high praise but people like more then one year before getting such high top 3-5 player praise.

 

[Echo Roku]

I watched him not very much in his first few seasons I did a lot in his rookie year wher he was pretty good for sure and last year phenomenal.

Last year he was like Matthews and eichel combined, he was amazing with the speed, skill and creativity.

All I’m saying is you have to still be accountable for your career. I mean is Claude giroux all of the sudden the next best player in the league after mcdavid? How about hall is he now too five?

Is William karlsson going to be a rocket contender every year?

One season after a 53 pt season.

Come on 53 pts in 82 games. That’s absolutely a pathertic total for a guy in his fourth year taken number one overall and won rookie of the year.

So he comes back with a monster season and absolutely tore it up.

To me he should of won the hart. I get What hall did but that guy lead the team to the show up doubt.

I’m just saying your other years still matter and we can’t base everything on last season. Where he was godly. But now he’s the 3rd best player? It’s a bit much. If he does it again I’ll have no issue naming him a top ten player.

Mcdavid
Crosby
Malkin
Ovehkin
Karlsson
Kucherov
Hedman
Doughty
Kopitar
Bergeron
Stamkos
Scheifele
Wheeler
Barkov
Tavares
Josi
Matthews
Eichel
Petriangelo
Burns
Gaudreau
Hall
P. Kane
Kessel
Forsberg
Kessel
Getlaf
Tarasenko
Laine
Marchessault




I mean there’s thirtyish names not necessarily in order after the first ten guys off the top of my head. So I’m missing some but like I said top of my head.


Is he comfortably better then all of them but two? I know that’s just TSN but that’s what I’m referring to is he hype. I just want to seee if he can have a season even close to last year and if he does that will be two tremendous seasons, a pretty good rookie season and a few other mediocre to bleh ones. 2/6 isn’t great but if it’s the past two seasons? Well then thats different and he would deserve all the praise. Still deserves high praise but people like more then one year before getting such high top 3-5 player praise.

Like I said to the other guy... stats in a vacuum without the context of why changes happen make bad reasons to believe anything about how it may change in the future.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

Like I said to the other guy... stats in a vacuum without the context of why changes happen make bad reasons to believe anything about how it may change in the future.

But I don’t doubt he will be good in the future, all I said was I want to see t first.

I mean what players of the ones I said do you consider him not better then. I figured that would be shorter then asking you think he’s better then right now.

After averaging higher then 0.80 PPG one time in five years. It was the recent one so that deserves to be taken seriouslyy and I do expect him to be dominant I just think his name belongs in the 5-10 after he does it st least one more time.

 

[Echo Roku]

But I don’t doubt he will be good in the future, all I said was I want to see t first.

I mean what players of the ones I said do you consider him not better then. I figured that would be shorter then asking you think he’s better then right now.

After averaging higher then 0.80 PPG one time in five years. It was the recent one so that deserves to be taken seriouslyy and I do expect him to be dominant I just think his name belongs in the 5-10 after he does it st least one more time.

But if you don’t even expect regression of a notable magnitude, then why would you need more seasons?

That’s the entire point of that concept

If it’s doubt for the sake of doubt, then everyone should be on the chopping block every year

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Crosby was just tired last year, after playing 50 additional games in the post season the previous 2 seasons.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Sid needs to rebound after last year. He wasn't good 5 on 5 in comparison with the elite of the league.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

But if you don’t even expect regression of a notable magnitude, then why would you need more seasons?

That’s the entire point of that concept

If it’s doubt for the sake of doubt, then everyone should be on the chopping block every year

Because proof matters.

Just because the oilers were dominant for a season and everyone EXPECTED no regression last year didn’t matter. It and they both bombed. Now I consider the oilers will improve his year but that’s beside the point.

I’m not expecting Mackinnon to bomb all I’m saying is I think one more season of elite play should make him elite.

Jim Carey wasn’t an elite goalie he had an elite season. Jose Theodore sane thing.

I don’t expect NATE to fall off but how good is he really? I mean coming off. 53 in 82 game season and then randomly in your fifth season putting up 97 in 74 or whatever it was is bizarre. We’re talking about doubling his point total and percentage, in a sport where confidence can make and break you. Let’s just see him put up something g similar before we’re ready to say he’s on the top mantle is all...

 

[Volica]

Malkin, Kuch and Crosby.
Kane is also an absurd offensive player.

 

[Echo Roku]

Because proof matters.

Just because the oilers were dominant for a season and everyone EXPECTED no regression last year didn’t matter. It and they both bombed. Now I consider the oilers will improve his year but that’s beside the point.

I’m not expecting Mackinnon to bomb all I’m saying is I think one more season of elite play should make him elite.

Jim Carey wasn’t an elite goalie he had an elite season. Jose Theodore sane thing.

I don’t expect NATE to fall off but how good is he really? I mean coming off. 53 in 82 game season and then randomly in your fifth season putting up 97 in 74 or whatever it was is bizarre. We’re talking about doubling his point total and percentage, in a sport where confidence can make and break you. Let’s just see him put up something g similar before we’re ready to say he’s on the top mantle is all...

We have proof. If you don't expect regression, then you're saying you don't need more proof.

Again, doubt for the sake of doubt would need to applied to literally everyone. There is no cutoff involved.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

We have proof. If you don't expect regression, then you're saying you don't need more proof.

Again, doubt for the sake of doubt would need to applied to literally everyone. There is no cutoff involved.

We have proof because of one season and because I don’t expect regression?

Go back to my oilers analogy how did that work out? Not saying mackinnon is likely to do that I think he will be the same thinking it isn’t proof it has to happen again.

 

[Echo Roku]

We have proof because of one season and because I don’t expect regression?

Go back to my oilers analogy how did that work out? Not saying mackinnon is likely to do that I think he will be the same thinking it isn’t proof it has to happen again.

We have proof he can do it. You also don't have reason to believe he will regress, by your own claims.

Doubt for the sake of doubt is silly.

Are you demanding McDavid prove himself? No? Why? Because he has given you no reason to believe he will regress? What a familiar concept.

You need more proof when you have a reason to doubt it. If you're doubting simply for the sake of doubting, then you need to doubt everything to be consistent. And yes, doubting for the sake of doubting means that thresholds of times they've done it don't matter because the entire concept is doubt no matter the lack of reason.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

We have proof he can do it. You also don't have reason to believe he will regress, by your own claims.

Doubt for the sake of doubt is silly.

Are you demanding McDavid prove himself? No? Why? Because he has given you no reason to believe he will regress? What a familiar concept.

You need more proof when you have a reason to doubt it. If you're doubting simply for the sake of doubting, then you need to doubt everything to be consistent. And yes, doubting for the sake of doubting means that thresholds of times they've done it don't matter because the entire concept is doubt no matter the lack of reason.

You obviously didn’t listen to a word I said about the oilers if you think I was talking about mcdavid. My god and even talking about mcdavid he did it for three seasons now.

I was ready to just agree and say yeah your right I don’t doubt mackinnon will be amazing agin let’s just give him the benefit of the doubt but you clearly just don’t even get the point here.

I’m saying people have been known to come out of no where and have one dominant season before. Mackinnon was average to poor for a talent of his caliber before last years godly season. McDavid has been a elite for three out of three. Mack had been good 2 out of 5 season and elite in 1 out of 6. Can’t you see the difference how can you even compare. I’m done since your not getting this.

I think mackinnon will be good again I just said I want to see him do it in back to bCk years before I label him in the top tier but you can’t seem to grasp rational thinking and I don’t know why it’s like you’re just not understanding this or you haven’t watched hockey very long. He may of found his game is it so wrong to want to see him do it again?

 

[Koolboss]

Kadri

 

[Echo Roku]

You obviously didn’t listen to a word I said about the oilers if you think I was talking about mcdavid. My god and even talking about mcdavid he did it for three seasons now.

I was ready to just agree and say yeah your right I don’t doubt mackinnon will be amazing agin let’s just give him the benefit of the doubt but you clearly just don’t even get the point here.

I’m saying people have been known to come out of no where and have one dominant season before. Mackinnon was average to poor for a talent of his caliber before last years godly season. McDavid has been a elite for three out of three. Mack had been good 2 out of 5 season and elite in 1 out of 6. Can’t you see the difference how can you even compare. I’m done since your not getting this.

I think mackinnon will be good again I just said I want to see him do it in back to bCk years before I label him in the top tier but you can’t seem to grasp rational thinking and I don’t know why it’s like you’re just not understanding this or you haven’t watched hockey very long. He may of found his game is it so wrong to want to see him do it again?

Oh my goodness, I wasn’t talking about your oilers example. It was stupid and not worth addressing

Again, you’re contradicting yourself. I explained how about three times now and you’ve failed to even try to reply to that once.

 

[Sasso09]

The guy who scored the 2nd most points