Prospect Info: Who is our 5th best prospect?

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I think McIsaac is toast. Here's a guy who's marketed as a shutdown defender at the highest level, yet he is too often lost and scrambling in his own zone.... in juniors. His decision-making is poor and he falls out of position too quickly. He needs more development at the junior level, yet he missed most of his last season there and is now going to miss his entire age-20 season. And so he's going to be way behind the development curve, and transitioning to the pro ranks after not playing consistently for 2.5 years. I think this portends some very rough times for him down the line. I don't see him sniffing Detroit until he's out of waiver exemption, and even then he'll likely be at the bottom of the depth chart. His age-21 and -22 seasons in GR are going to be extremely important for him, and I'm not ruling him out in Detroit one day, but at this point he's a big long-shot.

What is the justification for this opinion?

The guy was Canada's best defenseman at the WJC20, and since his draft year he's either been his team's first or second best defender. He's got good wheels, good athleticism, is pretty physical, has a very good first pass. We all kind of expect that his offensive game from the Q won't translate over but I've never once heard that he's scrambling in his own zone or that he makes poor defensive choices. Can you link anything that verifies all of that?

 

[Frk It]

What is the justification for this opinion?

The guy was Canada's best defenseman at the WJC20, and since his draft year he's either been his team's first or second best defender. He's got good wheels, good athleticism, is pretty physical, has a very good first pass. We all kind of expect that his offensive game from the Q won't translate over but I've never once heard that he's scrambling in his own zone or that he makes poor defensive choices. Can you link anything that verifies all of that?

He has had some consistentcy/positioning issues in international play for Canada.

I believe it was the U18’s in his draft year where he had 1-2 games where he looked exposed, then he responded and had a great rest of the tournament.

I think he has leveled his game some, but there has been some Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde with McIsaac at times.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

He has had some consistentcy/positioning issues in international play for Canada.

I believe it was the U18’s in his draft year where he had 1-2 games where he looked exposed, then he responded and had a great rest of the tournament.

I think he has leveled his game some, but there has been some Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde with McIsaac at times.

Everyone has a bad game once in a while, and the guy has improved quite a bit since his draft year. He was Canada's most consistent defenseman at the WJCU20 last season by a wide margin. And the times I had a chance to watch him in his D+1 I was impressed with his overall play. He was joining the rush regularly but still making it back in time to cover his end.

 

[jaster]

What would your tiers look like?

Off the top of my head, for the top-10....

Tier 1
Seider
Raymond

Tier 2
Zadina

Tier 3
Veleno
Rasmussen
Berggren
Johansson

Tier 4
Niederbach
Wallinder
Mastrosimone

My 4th tier could probably include other players, but I just picked who I felt was the 3 best after my first three tiers.

 

[Oddbob]

I feel like Berrgren is a long term project and feel like he has a better chance of never making it as anything in the NHL than he does of making it. I know he is doing really well right now offensively in his league, but from reading about his game, he is small and bad in his own end, which is a bad combo for the NHL. Obviously hope he becomes something, so not hating on him, just not getting why he is ahead of a guy who already has NHL hockey under his belt, and with low ice time did quite well, despite the lack of love he gets on HF Red Wings and the site in general.

I don't think Ras is going to be a star, but I think he has a chance of being a good 40-50 Pt power forward who does pretty well in other areas of the game. Even on our bad Wings team he was only -8 in 62 GP, which for a not physically mature 18 year old on a bad team is pretty good. Also on the PP he did look good when he got the chance to be on it.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I feel like Berrgren is a long term project and feel like he has a better chance of never making it as anything in the NHL than he does of making it. I know he is doing really well right now offensively in his league, but from reading about his game, he is small and bad in his own end, which is a bad combo for the NHL. Obviously hope he becomes something, so not hating on him, just not getting why he is ahead of a guy who already has NHL hockey under his belt, and with low ice time did quite well, despite the lack of love he gets on HF Red Wings and the site in general.

I don't think Ras is going to be a star, but I think he has a chance of being a good 40-50 Pt power forward who does pretty well in other areas of the game. Even on our bad Wings team he was only -8 in 62 GP, which for a not physically mature 18 year old on a bad team is pretty good. Also on the PP he did look good when he got the chance to be on it.

He is relatively bad defensively but far from a trainwreck, he just gets a bit lost at times. Overall I think he is doing a reasonable amount of good things defensively to not be overly concerned at this point in his development. I've seen him do a good job stealing pucks, forechecking, he's not amazing but I see no reason he can't become passable at least.

 

[Oddbob]

He is relatively bad defensively but far from a train-wreck, he just gets a bit lost at times. Overall I think he is doing a reasonable amount of good things defensively to not be overly concerned at this point in his development. I've seen him do a good job stealing pucks, forechecking, he's not amazing but I see no reason he can't become passable at least.

Point is though, he is likely far from good enough at the NHL level as of now, while Ras is definitely NHL ready. He already was as an 18 year old, people just expected far too much because they wanted Necas and others over him. Look at the 2017 draft and Ras is still among the point leaders from that draft and he only has 62 GP. I know that was a weaker draft, but he still did decent is all I am saying.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I guess it’s always good to have a variety of opinions, but man do we have a wide range. We have people talking about how talented Berggren is in ways that other people won’t even talk about Raymond or Zadina.

It’s the hype machine vs the hype police

 

[Pavels Dog]

Point is though, he is likely far from good enough at the NHL level as of now, while Ras is definitely NHL ready. He already was as an 18 year old, people just expected far too much because they wanted Necas and others over him. Look at the 2017 draft and Ras is still among the point leaders from that draft and he only has 62 GP. I know that was a weaker draft, but he still did decent is all I am saying.

I agree on Ras and I've been a strong defender of his. I just think what Berggren is doing this season catapults him higher in the rankings.

I guess it’s always good to have a variety of opinions, but man do we have a wide range. We have people talking about how talented Berggren is in ways that other people won’t even talk about Raymond or Zadina.

It’s the hype machine vs the hype police

I remember these days:

1.) Calle Järnkrok - 21, C/RW: 6'0" 176 lbs. Gävle, SWE 52.50%
2.) Petr Mrázek - 21, G: 6'1" 187 lbs. Ostrava, CZE 63.00%
3.) Tomas Jurco - 20, LW/RW: 6'2" 195 lbs. Kosice, SVK 74.16%
4.) Ryan Sproul - 20, RD: 6'4" 200 lbs. Mississauga, ON, CAN 46.67%
5.) Xavier Ouellet - 19, D: 6'1" 190 lbs. Bayonne, FRA 78.02%

Our top 5 as voted in 2013.

We've come a long way.

 

[Oddbob]

I agree on Ras and I've been a strong defender of his. I just think what Berggren is doing this season catapults him higher in the rankings.


I remember these days:

1.) Calle Järnkrok - 21, C/RW: 6'0" 176 lbs. Gävle, SWE 52.50%
2.) Petr Mrázek - 21, G: 6'1" 187 lbs. Ostrava, CZE 63.00%
3.) Tomas Jurco - 20, LW/RW: 6'2" 195 lbs. Kosice, SVK 74.16%
4.) Ryan Sproul - 20, RD: 6'4" 200 lbs. Mississauga, ON, CAN 46.67%
5.) Xavier Ouellet - 19, D: 6'1" 190 lbs. Bayonne, FRA 78.02%

Our top 5 as voted in 2013.

We've come a long way.

Man was that an ugly era of our drafting, although we did draft low, but still!

 

[simonedvinsson]

Wasn't Rasmussen up by a vote yesterday? Heck of a landslide flowing Berggren's way all of a sudden.

 

[jaster]

What is the justification for this opinion?

The guy was Canada's best defenseman at the WJC20, and since his draft year he's either been his team's first or second best defender. He's got good wheels, good athleticism, is pretty physical, has a very good first pass. We all kind of expect that his offensive game from the Q won't translate over but I've never once heard that he's scrambling in his own zone or that he makes poor defensive choices. Can you link anything that verifies all of that?

I'm going by what I've watched of him over the past couple years. I don't think he was Canada's best defenseman in the WJC, or really even close. Didn't typically play against the best opposition lines (at least not on the regular), didn't provide a standout amount of offense, and had at least two just brutal games defensively, including the gold medal game, where two of the Russian goals were completely on him after losing situational awareness, too easily imo. I think he was 5th in TOI among Canada's D? Now, he was just off one of his major injuries, so I largely give him a pass, but he was far too inconsistent to be lauded for his play in that tournament.

Now, I am certain that McIsaac's problems are significantly tied to his loss in development time due to all his injuries. He's suffered them during some of his most critical development time. He's still a very good skater with great edges, he's heady enough when he gains possession in his end and starts the transition. And his compete and physicality are good. But I contend he is just not where he needs to be (or should be), defensively, in his own end, while on the cusp of moving to the pros. Hopefully he can overcome that and really rebound from all these injuries, but I also wonder if he just lacks the requisite defensive IQ to be a regular NHLer.

 

[Frk It]

Off the top of my head, for the top-10....

Tier 1
Seider
Raymond

Tier 2
Zadina

Tier 3
Veleno
Rasmussen
Berggren
Johansson

Tier 4
Niederbach
Wallinder
Mastrosimone

My 4th tier could probably include other players, but I just picked who I felt was the 3 best after my first three tiers.

I could see something along these lines for our prospects.

I like how Raymond has more dual-threat ability as a passer/shooter, but not sure I would have him in a tier above Zadina. I think those 3 belong together, but I could see something thinking the other 2 are a cut above.

After that top 4, I kind of view the pool similarly as you do. Rasmussen, Veleno, Berggren, Johansson seems like a solid next tier. Then that next tier you could expand to include a bunch more guys... or hopefully someone could move their way up a tier. I think Mastrosimone is poised to have a breakout in the NCAA this year or next year. I could see him moving up these ranks a decent amount.

 

[jaster]

I could see something along these lines for our prospects.

I like how Raymond has more dual-threat ability as a passer/shooter, but not sure I would have him in a tier above Zadina. I think those 3 belong together, but I could see something thinking the other 2 are a cut above.

After that top 4, I kind of view the pool similarly as you do. Rasmussen, Veleno, Berggren, Johansson seems like a solid next tier. Then that next tier you could expand to include a bunch more guys... or hopefully someone could move their way up a tier. I think Mastrosimone is poised to have a breakout in the NCAA this year or next year. I could see him moving up these ranks a decent amount.

I think the most likely outcome is that Raymond and Zadina wind up having similar value, and I think they have the potential to be great linemates. But I was recently reading The Athletic's analysis of what it takes to be a contender... pretty decent read. There's a checklist that doesn't need to be completely filled out, but the more boxes you can check, the closer you are to being a contender. They contend you need to aim to have an elite winger, in addition to two first-line-caliber wingers. And I think if we have one winger in the system who can ascend to that level, it's Raymond. So... slightly higher ceiling (for now... he could certainly drop off over the next couple seasons). But I'm totally fine with the two of them, and Seider, in the same tier as well.

I only saw Mastrosimone once last season, so incredibly small sample size, but I like what I saw, and I like what I've read. On the same team, Phillips too is an interesting prospect, but a bit more of a project.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I could see something along these lines for our prospects.

I like how Raymond has more dual-threat ability as a passer/shooter, but not sure I would have him in a tier above Zadina. I think those 3 belong together, but I could see something thinking the other 2 are a cut above.

After that top 4, I kind of view the pool similarly as you do. Rasmussen, Veleno, Berggren, Johansson seems like a solid next tier. Then that next tier you could expand to include a bunch more guys... or hopefully someone could move their way up a tier. I think Mastrosimone is poised to have a breakout in the NCAA this year or next year. I could see him moving up these ranks a decent amount.

Agree, I think there are arguments for Wallinder entering that tier. I would have them in the bottom of it right now in terms of him and Mastro, but I think he has the kind of potential those other guys have in that tier. It becomes how clearly you want to define each tier.

My tiers

Raymond
Seider


Zadina

Rasmussen
Johansson
Veleno

Berggren
Wallinder
Svech
Niederbach
Cholo
Mastro
McIsaac

Is probably the fairest way to do it. I think these guys can slide up and down. Like how Bergrren was dropping like crazy when he was injured twice and missing significant time. So for the Rasmussen and McIsaac crowd remember that as well.

 

[Gniwder]

Wasn't Rasmussen up by a vote yesterday? Heck of a landslide flowing Berggren's way all of a sudden.

I demand a manual recount and an audit of each vote cast.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Top prospects for Detroit Red Wings

NHL.com rates them: (I disagree)

Raymond
Seider
Zadina
Berggren
Veleno