Speculation: Who is a good General Manager? Perhaps it's the luckiest one?

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

IMO, you and some others have too low an expectation.
A GM in the NHL is one of the most exclusive jobs there is.
It's not suppose to be easy and should come with very high expectations.
Any monkey could have thrown a first to get rid of Marleau.

You're right, any "monkey" could have tossed in a 1st or another elite asset to get rid of him
No GM could have gotten rid of that contract for anything less
Both these can be true.

Imagine how mad people would have been if we gave away a top 6 forward while going for the cup just to get rid of Marleau?

A "monkey" could have also just not signed Marleau to that terrible deal to begin with, like you know, the team that he had become a legacy player with didn't even do it.

 

[The Podium]

History of hockey trades by general manager Kyle Dubas - NHL Trade Tracker

** Lou Lam's trades if anyone cares to compare - History of hockey trades by general manager Lou Lamoriello - NHL Trade Tracker

I rate him just over .500 on trades. (I didn't list the ones I'm indifferent on)
Don't think he's done a great job on contracts either.


Liked

Calle Rosen [TBODY] [/TBODY]

February 24, 2020

Michael Hutchinson [TBODY] [/TBODY]

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Jack Campbell Kyle Clifford [TBODY] [/TBODY]

February 5, 2020

Trevor Moore 2020 3rd round pick 2021 conditional 3rd round pick [TBODY] [/TBODY]

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Nic Petan [TBODY] [/TBODY]

February 25, 2019

Par Lindholm [TBODY] [/TBODY]

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Jake Muzzin [TBODY] [/TBODY]

January 28, 2019

Carl Grundstrom Sean Durzi 2019 1st round pick [TBODY] [/TBODY]

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Michael Hutchinson [TBODY] [/TBODY]

December 29, 2018

2020 5th round pick [TBODY] [/TBODY]

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Disliked

Ottawa Senators acquire	Date	Toronto Maple Leafs acquire
Nikita Zaitsev Connor Brown Michael Carcone [TBODY] [/TBODY]	July 1, 2019	Cody Ceci Ben Harpur Aaron Luchuk 2020 3rd round pick [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Carolina Hurricanes acquire	Date	Toronto Maple Leafs acquire
Patrick Marleau 2020 conditional 1st round pick 2020 7th round pick [TBODY] [/TBODY]	June 22, 2019	2020 6th round pick [TBODY] [/TBODY]

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Vancouver Canucks acquire	Date	Toronto Maple Leafs acquire
Josh Leivo [TBODY] [/TBODY]	December 3, 2018	Michael Carcone [TBODY] [/TBODY]

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Initially liked, grew to dislike

Toronto Maple Leafs acquire	Date	Colorado Avalanche acquire
Tyson Barrie Alex Kerfoot 2020 6th round pick [TBODY] [/TBODY]	July 1, 2019	Nazem Kadri Calle Rosen 2020 3rd round pick [TBODY] [/TBODY]

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Also to add, Hyman for McKegg and Kessel (1.2 mil retention) + 2nd for Kapanen + 1st + Spaling + 3rd wasnt on that list

 

[ACC1224]

You're right, any "monkey" could have tossed in a 1st or another elite asset to get rid of him
No GM could have gotten rid of that contract for anything less
Both these can be true.

Imagine how mad people would have been if we gave away a top 6 forward while going for the cup just to get rid of Marleau?

A "monkey" could have also just not signed Marleau to that terrible deal to begin with, like you know, the team that he had become a legacy player with didn't even do it.

They would have every right to, that would have been a terrible move.

I don't believe there is ever only one way a situation could have played out.

 

[ACC1224]

Also to add, Hyman for McKegg and Kessel (1.2 mil retention) + 2nd for Kapanen + 1st + Spaling + 3rd wasnt on that list

I don't believe he was the GM yet or that site is wrong.
Hyman trade was great.
Didn't like the Kessel retention but the rest of the deal was fine.

 

[The Podium]

I don't believe he was the GM yet or that site is wrong.
Hyman trade was great.
Didn't like the Kessel retention but the rest of the deal was fine.

He was interim co-GM with Hunter at the time, there is speculation that he spearheaded the trades while Hunter dealt with amateur scouting/draft

 

[ACC1224]

I wish a GM did a "take a armchair GM to work day" and I would love to see people like you show them how it's done. I would very much enjoy the video of other GM's laughing at you and telling you to get bent when you make your demands.

It's so easy to talk about how things should have gone without being in the situation yourself.

You're welcome to be happy with everything they do. The rest of your post is pretty dumb.

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

They would have every right to, that would have been a terrible move.

I don't believe there is ever only one way a situation could have played out.

What do you think would have been possible? There is 30 other GMs that won't absolutely nothing to do with that contract/player combo. Like, you're right, it is an extremely exclusive job with super high expectations for all of them, why/how would any single other GM have taken that contract back without an absolute top asset?

 

[ACC1224]

He was interim co-GM with Hunter at the time, there is speculation that he spearheaded the trades while Hunter dealt with amateur scouting/draft

Yep. Speculation was they brought in Lou Lam because of the Kessel deal.
I just went by the list on the site.
Was surprised at how many moves both Dubas and Lou Lam completed.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think we can only judge by hindsight.
Sofar, Dubas is doing more good than bad.
His drafts strategy of trading down a few spots for more picks will work out more often than not over the long run. He might have missed on Aho but did hit on Sandin and Robertson.
His development program is very good, not just making sure guys drafted in the top are developed properly but also guys like Moore, Holl, Marchment along with AJ and Engvall-really late round picks are all developing into solid NHLers.
His Euro signings are literally like extra mid round picks, Borgman, Rosen, Par, Souperman, Oz, and now Barba, if he can sign someone like Souperman every few seasons, that’s literally an extra top 20 picks every few years.
Trade, beside the Kadri trade, all his trades are pretty good and he wasted no assets. I am not going to mention the Zai, Leivo and Marleau trades as those trades are made to to their own reasons.
Signings, he signed JT. He didn’t get AM the terms but it could be blessing in disguise as AM next contract will be two yrs sooner than McDavid’s renewal. Willie’s contract is fine even when he signed it. While Marner is being paid about a mil more than he should. As long as they produce, that’s all it matters. The contracts to AJ, Kap, Kerfoot, Engvall, and Muzzin are all great.
Signings UFA, I think Spezza will be first of many TO boys to come home on a min contract to fulfill their dreams of playing for the Leafs. And Spezza is doing a great job of promoting that.
Overall, I think Dubas is doing as good a job as GM as he could. Like all players, they won’t consider great till they lead their team to Championships.

 

[The Podium]

They would have every right to, that would have been a terrible move.

I don't believe there is ever only one way a situation could have played out.

There are 4 scenarios IMO:
A) Trade a 1st to unload Marleau to be bought out
- Easy, clean, Marleau is the only cap coming in
B) Trade Johnsson/Kapanen to unload Marleau
- Reduces suitors, Johnsson/Kapanen needed new deals and thats an added 3-4 mill on top of Marleaus 6 mil. Carolina did not have the cap for that so we would have to look elsewhere. Does another team make that deal?
C) Retain Marleau 50% and deal Johnsson/Kapanen elsewhere to make up the remainder
- Reduces the cost in terms of assets out, but wed be downgrading a roster with contender aspirations. Mikheyev was a question mark and the Leafs didnt have an NHL calibre LW after Hyman and Johnsson.
D) Keep Marleau and deal Johnsson + Kapanen elsewhere to make up the cap space
- Best case scenario in terms of assets out, but further depletes forward depth on a team with contender aspirations

 

[ACC1224]

What do you think would have been possible? There is 30 other GMs that won't absolutely nothing to do with that contract/player combo. Like, you're right, it is an extremely exclusive job with super high expectations for all of them, why/how would any single other GM have taken that contract back without an absolute top asset?

I think it would have been possible to move a player instead of the 1st, like Johnsson.
I also think by spending to the cap he put himself in a poor position to make a deal.
GM's knew he was over a barrel.

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

I think it would have been possible to move a player instead of the 1st, like Johnsson.
I also think by spending to the cap he put himself in a poor position to make a deal.
GM's knew he was over a barrel.

So to not spend to the cap that would mean not signing J.T or trading one of the big 3 proactively before that I'm assuming? Which route did you prefer out of those?

 

[ACC1224]

There are 4 scenarios IMO:
A) Trade a 1st to unload Marleau to be bought out
- Easy, clean, Marleau is the only cap coming in
B) Trade Johnsson/Kapanen to unload Marleau
- Reduces suitors, Johnsson/Kapanen needed new deals and thats an added 3-4 mill on top of Marleaus 6 mil. Carolina did not have the cap for that so we would have to look elsewhere. Does another team make that deal?
C) Retain Marleau 50% and deal Johnsson/Kapanen elsewhere to make up the remainder
- Reduces the cost in terms of assets out, but wed be downgrading a roster with contender aspirations. Mikheyev was a question mark and the Leafs didnt have an NHL calibre LW after Hyman and Johnsson.
D) Keep Marleau and deal Johnsson + Kapanen elsewhere to make up the cap space
- Best case scenario in terms of assets out, but further depletes forward depth on a team with contender aspirations

I think this is all I have been saying, although probably poorly.
He chose to deal a 1st. I wish he would have chose differently.

If somehow he gets a 1st back before the draft, depending on the cost, I will no longer care that he paid that.

 

[The Podium]

He might have missed on Aho but did hit on Sandin and Robertson.

Hunter was in charge of the draft at that time and rumour was the Leafs were very high on Aho. Their strategy with their 2 picks were one F one D. Picking Marner with their first meant they were going for a D with their second. Apparently had they selected Werenski (who they were interested in at the time), they go with Aho with the second.

Obviously thats just another example of why you go BPA with every pick, but at least we can take some solace in the fact that they were interested and have been better lately at identifying talent.

 

[ACC1224]

So to not spend to the cap that would mean not signing J.T or trading one of the big 3 proactively before that I'm assuming? Which route did you prefer out of those?

I'm sure there were many ways over the course of the year to save some cap space.
Signing Marner the prior summer to the 8.5 * 8 would have been a good start.

 

[The Podium]

I think this is all I have been saying, although probably poorly.
He chose to deal a 1st. I wish he would have chose differently.

If somehow he gets a 1st back before the draft, depending on the cost, I will no longer care that he paid that.

Which of the 4 scenarios do you pick?

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

I think this is all I have been saying, although probably poorly.
He chose to deal a 1st. I wish he would have chose differently.

If somehow he gets a 1st back before the draft, depending on the cost, I will no longer care that he paid that.

Nah, I don't think you've done it poorly, it's been a fun discussion.

I think in hindsight I would have moved Johnsson instead (we don't even know if Carolina even considered this though)
But we didn't know Mikheyev was gonna be as good as he was or that Johnsson was gonna be hurt most the year. I kinda expected Johnsson to build on his recent success and become a top 6 staple on one of the two lines.

 

[Americanadian]

Lou has his place as a HHoF GM, but has either gone senile or is unable to adapt to the changing modern league.

He values the blue collared grinders and character guys, which is fine as I believe they are still an asset in this league, but values them at the expense of their young stars. Happened here when they signed Marleau to that 3rd year overlapping the first year of Matthews and Marners new contract. Happened again in NYI spending a 1st (top 3 protected) + 2nd + 3rd for a career 30-40 point player subsequently signing him at 5mill when Pulock, Toews and Barzal are pending RFAs.

I rather overpay my stars by 1-1.5 mill than grinders like Matt Martin and Leo Komarov.

Dubas is much better than Lou at this point, and I say that while believing Dubas has his faults. Lou is just that bad and starting this offseason well see how he handles the mess he made on the island.

I’d rather overpay the 4th liners because if they underperform you can trade them for a minor cost or for free whereas you don’t want to trade an overpaid Matthews because he’s your best player despite paying too much for him.

 

[The Podium]

Nah, I don't think you've done it poorly, it's been a fun discussion.

I think in hindsight I would have moved Johnsson instead (we don't even know if Carolina even considered this though)
But we didn't know Mikheyev was gonna be as good as he was or that Johnsson was gonna be hurt most the year. I kinda expected Johnsson to build on his recent success and become a top 6 staple on one of the two lines.

Carolina does not have the cap to afford both Johnsson and Marleau, the Leafs would have had to look elsewhere.

 

[The Podium]

I’d rather overpay the 4th liners because if they underperform you can trade them for a minor cost or for free whereas you don’t want to trade an overpaid Matthews because he’s your best player despite paying too much for him.

Lol.

 

[Americanadian]

Lol.

The leafs won’t ever shed the 4M overpayment on Matthews and Marner but they were able to shed Martin and Zaitsev for free (until Dubas signed Ceci).

 

[ChazzMichaelMichaels]

Carolina does not have the cap to afford both Johnsson and Marleau, the Leafs would have had to look elsewhere.

The whole situation was a costly mess.

 

[The Podium]

The leafs won’t ever shed the 4M overpayment on Matthews and Marner but they were able to shed Martin and Zaitsev for free (until Dubas signed Ceci).

And NYI is stuck with Andrew Ladd at a 6mil overpayment, the Leafs had to deal a 1st to get rid of Marleau, Boston a 1st to get rid of 50% of Backes, etc.

There are many more examples of middle of the lineup players hurting the cap than a slight overpayment on your star players that are among the top 10-20 most productive in the league. 4mill overpayment is also quite the hyperbole.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Yes, I've heard all of that before and don't agree with any of it.
I expect better. Anyone could make moves where 'they have no choice' or 'nothing could be done'
Find a better way, set the standard not just follow some others teams bad moves.

It's easy for you to say anyone could've done better but how many teams are going to line up for a 38 year old forward making 6M and doesn't contribute a whole lot to the ice? If the only team willing to take him says the only way we do this deal is we get a 1st, what can you do? There was no leverage on our end on that deal. I hated that we had to give up a 1st to undo Lou's mistake but It was necessary to get Marner signed and keep both Johnsson and Kap in our top 9 for playoff contention.

It's like trying to sell a used car and asking a ridiculous price. If no one is willing to pay what you're asking the car isn't going anywhere.

 

[Americanadian]

And NYI is stuck with Andrew Ladd at a 6mil overpayment, the Leafs had to deal a 1st to get rid of Marleau, Boston a 1st to get rid of 50% of Backes, etc.

There are many more examples of middle of the lineup players hurting the cap than a slight overpayment on your stars players that are among the top 10-20 most productive scorers in the league. 4mill overpayment is also quite the hyperbole.

How is it hyperbole? Why did Matthews and Marner deserve more than 9.5M each on 5 and 6 year terms? Boston paid a 1st to get rid of Backes but they brought back Kase. Ladd is a mess but what about the examples I used - Martin and Zaitsev?