Who Are We?

[MoeBartoli]

Todays (Nov 13) Dispatch article centers on the Jackets trying to find their identity. It's a good article and worth the read.

Through the interviews, Dubi and Foligno clearly feel the team has lost focus on being a good forechecking, tough-in-the-corners team. Instead they feel there's too much "run and gun", "fancy" play. This echoed earlier remarks by the Captain.

Torts cited too much "east-west" play. But he also said this year's team wasn't really losing its identity as it hasn't established one.

My takeaway? I think the identity question is a fair one as we've not meshed styles of play. Dubi, Foligno, Jenner, Calvert and Savard are a few who play a traditional style, more blue collar in nature. Panarin, Cam, Bjork, Jones, Zach and Milano (does he count?) play the emerging NHL up and down style. It doesn't mean they don't believe in forechecking, but they are less physical.

I like our guys - older players and the newer players. But Torts - and the front office - need to figure out what kind of team we want to be. (I suspect Torts heart will never waiver from a core being toughness, though his head would like to see the faster play a Panarin, for example, offers).

So.....Who are we? Or maybe more appropriate, who are we going to be?

PS - first thread I've created so I hope it's set up properly.

Click to read more...

 

[Old Guy]

You ask a great question. And yes, we as fans, want everything to mesh and not o even have to ask these types of questions. We want it to be self evident by the way our team wins.

I've said this before in a couple other places, and I believe it, so I'll say it again. This was a good young team last year that got younger by letting Gagner walk and buying out Hartnell. There are 9 1st and 2nd year players, plus Panarin being new. This team took last October and part of November to get its legs under it, then dominated for December and early January. By March and April, we all saw the team had slipped. That yielded us those infamous "10 extra days".

This year feels like a very young team that has pockets of skill, toughness, smarts, but lacks polish. I'm perfectly content to watch this team struggle in November, December, January and even into February, then begin to gel and really shine in March and April (and hopefully May). I don't disagree with the other posters here who complain about Carlsson only getting 4:48 of TOI or Milano being scratched two games in a row. Those guys need to play to develop.

Werenski is so good that other teams are focusing on how to slow him down. That didn't happen during those early months last year. Plus he still has less than 100 NHL games under his belt. Johnson and Savard this year are not what they were last year. Ditto Wennberg (obviously). Yes, the team needs a center. Sedlak and Calvert are hurt. Those two guys are important.

This is a team that is effective 10% of the time on the power play, but it will not stay that way all year. It will get better. This is a team with its most skilled offensive player having a 5% shooting percentage currently with a career 14.5% shooting percentage. This is a team with a 3rd OA draft pick that looks like a puppy going through the "big paws stage" and you can just see that his skill and instinct will be impressive. This is a team that has watched Bjorkstrand dominate hockey games after he unwraps his Christmas presents, after he exchanges Valentine cards and after he celebrates St. Patrick's Day.

It kills me as much of the rest of you guys (and gals) to watch this team score 1 stinkin' goal and try to win. But I really think Jarmo, Billy Zito , JD and Coach Tortorella know what they are doing. I hate dressing 11 forwards and watching two of them be stapled to the bench. But it is so much better than the days of giving Jon-Luc Grand-Pierre a turn skating on the 4th forward line.

 

[1857 Howitzer]

You ask a great question. And yes, we as fans, want everything to mesh and not o even have to ask these types of questions. We want it to be self evident by the way our team wins.

I've said this before in a couple other places, and I believe it, so I'll say it again. This was a good young team last year that got younger by letting Gagner walk and buying out Hartnell. There are 9 1st and 2nd year players, plus Panarin being new. This team took last October and part of November to get its legs under it, then dominated for December and early January. By March and April, we all saw the team had slipped. That yielded us those infamous "10 extra days".

This year feels like a very young team that has pockets of skill, toughness, smarts, but lacks polish. I'm perfectly content to watch this team struggle in November, December, January and even into February, then begin to gel and really shine in March and April (and hopefully May). I don't disagree with the other posters here who complain about Carlsson only getting 4:48 of TOI or Milano being scratched two games in a row. Those guys need to play to develop.

Werenski is so good that other teams are focusing on how to slow him down. That didn't happen during those early months last year. Plus he still has less than 100 NHL games under his belt. Johnson and Savard this year are not what they were last year. Ditto Wennberg (obviously). Yes, the team needs a center. Sedlak and Calvert are hurt. Those two guys are important.

This is a team that is effective 10% of the time on the power play, but it will not stay that way all year. It will get better. This is a team with its most skilled offensive player having a 5% shooting percentage currently with a career 14.5% shooting percentage. This is a team with a 3rd OA draft pick that looks like a puppy going through the "big paws stage" and you can just see that his skill and instinct will be impressive. This is a team that has watched Bjorkstrand dominate hockey games after he unwraps his Christmas presents, after he exchanges Valentine cards and after he celebrates St. Patrick's Day.

It kills me as much of the rest of you guys (and gals) to watch this team score 1 stinkin' goal and try to win. But I really think Jarmo, Billy Zito , JD and Coach Tortorella know what they are doing. I hate dressing 11 forwards and watching two of them be stapled to the bench. But it is so much better than the days of giving Jon-Luc Grand-Pierre a turn skating on the 4th forward line.

You're pretty much spot on here, good post.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

 

[Hello Johnny]

This is a team with a 3rd OA draft pick that looks like a puppy going through the "big paws stage" and you can just see that his skill and instinct will be impressive.

Your whole post was great, but this is perfect. You can tell he's gonna be a big dog one day.

 

[EDM]

While much of what you say has merit, I still see no basis for continuing to dress 11 forwards and 7 d-men. That is not the way to help a young team find its mojo.

 

[Forepar]

You ask a great question. And yes, we as fans, want everything to mesh and not o even have to ask these types of questions. We want it to be self evident by the way our team wins.

I've said this before in a couple other places, and I believe it, so I'll say it again. This was a good young team last year that got younger by letting Gagner walk and buying out Hartnell. There are 9 1st and 2nd year players, plus Panarin being new. This team took last October and part of November to get its legs under it, then dominated for December and early January. By March and April, we all saw the team had slipped. That yielded us those infamous "10 extra days".

This year feels like a very young team that has pockets of skill, toughness, smarts, but lacks polish. I'm perfectly content to watch this team struggle in November, December, January and even into February, then begin to gel and really shine in March and April (and hopefully May). I don't disagree with the other posters here who complain about Carlsson only getting 4:48 of TOI or Milano being scratched two games in a row. Those guys need to play to develop.

Werenski is so good that other teams are focusing on how to slow him down. That didn't happen during those early months last year. Plus he still has less than 100 NHL games under his belt. Johnson and Savard this year are not what they were last year. Ditto Wennberg (obviously). Yes, the team needs a center. Sedlak and Calvert are hurt. Those two guys are important.

This is a team that is effective 10% of the time on the power play, but it will not stay that way all year. It will get better. This is a team with its most skilled offensive player having a 5% shooting percentage currently with a career 14.5% shooting percentage. This is a team with a 3rd OA draft pick that looks like a puppy going through the "big paws stage" and you can just see that his skill and instinct will be impressive. This is a team that has watched Bjorkstrand dominate hockey games after he unwraps his Christmas presents, after he exchanges Valentine cards and after he celebrates St. Patrick's Day.

It kills me as much of the rest of you guys (and gals) to watch this team score 1 stinkin' goal and try to win. But I really think Jarmo, Billy Zito , JD and Coach Tortorella know what they are doing. I hate dressing 11 forwards and watching two of them be stapled to the bench. But it is so much better than the days of giving Jon-Luc Grand-Pierre a turn skating on the 4th forward line.

Was at Carolina game Friday...what I saw in person is a team that a) likes each other too much, looking for the set up instead of the goal; b) played a decent 3rd, but got too tired to capitalize, thanks to playing 3 lines (Torts' insistence on conditioning loses its advantage with 9 Fs (2 were stapled to the bench); c) Wennberg is a mess right now, thinking too much, but believe he will be fine, needs to play himself out of this; and 4) Werenski's miss from point blank range late in the 3rd is a microcosm of the season thus far for all of them - too tight on the stick.

Last year Torts let the game come to all 4 lines, in part because there was no pressure, no expectation. He didn't have as many young kids up front, they were on the blue line.
This year, even though Torts says this year will be harder, it feels like Torts is making it harder....either trying to send a message, or trying to get the level of play prepared for April/May, much shorter leash for Milano (scratches), Dubois (ice time limited at times), and Bjorkstrand (up and down the lineup).

They aren't stellar. But they are right there - as is every other team in the Metro.

 

[MoeBartoli]

The Who.....who prompted my title indeed.

 

[EspenK]

My take is the same as Moe's. We have two distinct groups of players in terms of style. What is happening this year is that the two aren't meshing worth a damn. As a result we are totally disjointed on offense. If not for Bob we would not have as good of a record as we do. Because you can't changeover the roster in one fell swoop they are going to have to learn how to play together. The coaches need to recognize this and come up with a plan to make it happen or this season is only go downhill imo.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

As if it's unrealistic to expect a highly-skilled player to play fundamentally-sound hockey within a system that values forechecking. I don't buy the "two teams' thing at all.

 

[Forepar]

CBJ +5 in GF/GA. 3.05 GF/Game; 2.77 GA/Game.
Neither stat is stellar nor horrid. You score 3, you expect to win. You give up 3, you expect to lose.

No one in division appreciably better on goal differential (Devils +7). The almighty Penguins are -18.
Lightning at +25 is only team in East with significant positive GF/GA ratio.
Out West, Blues and Kings at +14, Knights at +11.

Highest raw GF is 58 in the West; 72/71 in East (TBL and TOR), next highest 61. Jackets at 55 are not off the chart low, but not good enough to be at top of division (tied 2nd doesn't qualify as top, not with 6 teams at 18-21 points). But it isn't bottom either.

New #9 toy, rookies/2nd years all over the ice.
I guess we still expected a 18-0-0 start...
There are things that need fixed, things that are worrisome - true for almost everyone except TBL and maybe the Kings.

If Wennberg out with injury as reported (along with Sedlak), that may be a blessing in disguise. Puts pressure on others to step up (whether Jenner, PLD and/or someone else). Maybe Wennberg getting a break to watch (by injury, not a benching) will help him down the road. And if no one steps up and Wennberg doesn't eventually find his game, then JK finds a C somewhere. JK probably thinks the window is just opening, but he isn't going to give up on this season either. They are right there in the standings, just need to find their game. The only positive consistency has come from Bob and Calvert (before getting dinged up). Either that's a great sign for the remainder of the season, or the implosion is around the corner. I vote the former, until evidence shows otherwise.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Ah, the memories. It all went downhill for the Admiral after his "who am I and why am I here" line. I remember Quayle and Bentsen looking at each other during Stockdale's opening remarks and their looks said: "it's all you and me buddy, we can't pick on the senile grandpa."

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Ah, the memories. It all went downhill for the Admiral after his "who am I and why am I here" line. I remember Quayle and Bentsen looking at each other during Stockdale's opening remarks and their looks said: "it's all you and me buddy, we can't pick on the senile grandpa."

Pretty sure it was Gore and Quayle. But I think a lot of people confuse the actual Stockdale with the Phil Hartman version.

Anyway, I've gone and taken this off-topic. And it's a thread that actually has a topic of great interest to me. My apologies.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Pretty sure it was Gore and Quayle. But I think a lot of people confuse the actual Stockdale with the Phil Hartman version.

Anyway, I've gone and taken this off-topic. And it's a thread that actually has a topic of great interest to me. My apologies.

I stand corrected. I was thinking of Bentsen's "You're no Jack Kennedy" remark. It's been a while and I'm getting old so I give myself a pass. But the look between quayle and gore stands.

On topic, I think that Torts needs to figure out his line combinations and stick with them for a while. Highly skilled players can use a grinder on their line often times. The basic forechecking system remains the same whomever is playing.

Also, finding one's identity in what is rapidly becoming a no check league is probably not unique to the CBJ. Guys whose games relied significantly upon hitting, fighting and obstruction have to, if not reinvent themselves, significantly alter their playing styles.

 

[EspenK]

As if it's unrealistic to expect a highly-skilled player to play fundamentally-sound hockey within a system that values forechecking. I don't buy the "two teams' thing at all.

I don 't think it is unrealistic to expect fundamentally sound hockey from all. I do think there needs to be a realization that the two groups have different talents and abilities. To expect either group to play exactly the same as the other is unrealistic. You have finesse guys and you have physical guys. The coach needs to figure out how to blend them in a system that works for all. I don't ever see Milano being confused with Jenner; Savard with Werenski; etc etc. The fact that the groups are about even in numbers makes Torts' job more difficult than if the split was 2/3-1/3 or 1/4 -3/4.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I don 't think it is unrealistic to expect fundamentally sound hockey from all. I do think there needs to be a realization that the two groups have different talents and abilities. To expect either group to play exactly the same as the other is unrealistic. You have finesse guys and you have physical guys. The coach needs to figure out how to blend them in a system that works for all. I don't ever see Milano being confused with Jenner; Savard with Werenski; etc etc. The fact that the groups are about even in numbers makes Torts' job more difficult than if the split was 2/3-1/3 or 1/4 -3/4.

I just feel like "finesse guys" and "physical guys" is a dramatic oversimplification is all.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

We are who we thought we were!

 

[MoeBartoli]

I just feel like "finesse guys" and "physical guys" is a dramatic oversimplification is all.

What would be your deeper characterization of the team? Or is your take that it is more a matter of just not playing to our full potential?

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I still think it's a team that is in the process of becoming. More below.

That said, I don't think, system-wise, there's a dramatic change from last year (power play concerns notwithstanding). I don't think that, merely by adding Panarin and Milano to the roster, and our assessments of those two players' strengths and weaknesses, means that all of a sudden there's a crisis of conflicting strategies/approaches.

Every team is a mix of elements. The Jackets are no different. The team was pretty good last season, and management felt there needed to be an infusion of some dynamic offensive ability, someone who could "make his own offense." So Jarmo traded for Panarin. I hardly think this is a signal that Jarmo doesn't want his team to play a fast, checking game that outworks opponents. Any more than I think having Boone Jenner and Matt Calvert means Jarmo isn't interested in creativity and vision and the like.

Think back to the playoffs. There is a school of thought that the Jackets outplayed the Pens for stretches but failed to capitalize on the scoresheet, and then saw their team give up a couple goals in short order. I think it'as fair to suggest that Jarmo thought, if only we'd have had that extra something in their zone, maybe we could have gotten up and been better positioned for when they did give up a goal or two. And then, who knows, maybe things look a lot different.

If I had to guess, and I don't, I'd say this is still a team built from the net out, committed to icing a committed, responsible and mobile defensive structure in front of a world-class goaltender. I think the targeted identity is a team that does those things while also being fast (skating and thinking), tenacious and icing players with a high hockey IQ. Maybe that sounds like an ideal that every team ascribes to, and it probably is. But not every team has the same pieces, or the perfect pieces, or players whop are always performing at their best all the time. Those things are exacerbated for the Jackets right now because, as I said at the very top of this overlong post, they are in the process of becoming.

 

[Monk]

 

[MoeBartoli]

I still think it's a team that is in the process of becoming. More below.

That said, I don't think, system-wise, there's a dramatic change from last year (power play concerns notwithstanding). I don't think that, merely by adding Panarin and Milano to the roster, and our assessments of those two players' strengths and weaknesses, means that all of a sudden there's a crisis of conflicting strategies/approaches.

Every team is a mix of elements. The Jackets are no different. The team was pretty good last season, and management felt there needed to be an infusion of some dynamic offensive ability, someone who could "make his own offense." So Jarmo traded for Panarin. I hardly think this is a signal that Jarmo doesn't want his team to play a fast, checking game that outworks opponents. Any more than I think having Boone Jenner and Matt Calvert means Jarmo isn't interested in creativity and vision and the like.

Think back to the playoffs. There is a school of thought that the Jackets outplayed the Pens for stretches but failed to capitalize on the scoresheet, and then saw their team give up a couple goals in short order. I think it'as fair to suggest that Jarmo thought, if only we'd have had that extra something in their zone, maybe we could have gotten up and been better positioned for when they did give up a goal or two. And then, who knows, maybe things look a lot different.

If I had to guess, and I don't, I'd say this is still a team built from the net out, committed to icing a committed, responsible and mobile defensive structure in front of a world-class goaltender. I think the targeted identity is a team that does those things while also being fast (skating and thinking), tenacious and icing players with a high hockey IQ. Maybe that sounds like an ideal that every team ascribes to, and it probably is. But not every team has the same pieces, or the perfect pieces, or players whop are always performing at their best all the time. Those things are exacerbated for the Jackets right now because, as I said at the very top of this overlong post, they are in the process of becoming.

I do agree we are a team built from the net out and would cite the Jones and Werenski additions (and how subsequently the other D slots fell into place)as a taking us up one more level. (And of course Bob being healthy).

 

[CBJx614]

"What do you mean you people? "

"What do YOU mean you people?"

 

[Old Guy]

The following is an excerpt from an article appearing in The Athletic. It was done by Dom Leszczyszyn. This amplifies the point I was hoping to make about the youth of this team, but being fine with the way that Jarmo has assembled it and Tortorella is developing them. While I have questions about dressing 11 F and keeping 2 on the bench, I've never had to do what he does.

FYI - Edmonton was #1


Under-25 Core Rankings: Which teams are set up best for the future?

• The numbers beside each player’s name is their current age, projected win rate (which is age-adjusted), and average Game Score this season.

2. Columbus Blue Jackets
· Zach Werenski, 21, +3.0, 1.00
Seth Jones, 23, +2.2, 1.01
Oliver Bjorkstrand, 22, +1.5, 0.70
Boone Jenner, 24, +1.3, 0.50
Alex Wennberg, 22, +1.2, 0.69
Josh Anderson, 23, +1.1, 0.78
Sonny Milano, 20, +0.7, 0.55
Pierre Luc-Dubiois, 19, +0.7, 0.44
The Blue Jackets have one of the best top D pairs in hockey and their average age is 21. That’s a scary thought for the rest of the league. When Zach Werenski and Seth Jones are on the ice together, they control 56.7 per cent of the shot attempts and 66.2 per cent of the goals at 5-on-5. Not bad for two kids playing a position many players their age wouldn’t normally be trusted in. They’re getting a lot more trust than most defenders their age do as they're getting the tough minutes this year (and crushing them). After them, the team has six forwards under 25, all of whom are solid contributors giving them a lot of depth for years to come. The eight “core” players under 25 is the most of any team. {Old Guy amplified}

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

**snip**

I posted recently (in a GDT or maybe a trade thread or somewhere) that I believe there is a plan and it's not on the timetable that long-suffering fans might prefer (totally fair, too, I said). (Also, I made a couple similar posts last season and possibly prior...) This would seem to support my contention. I also said I'm making no predictions on the efficacy of said plan, just that there seems to be one and the FO seems committed to it.

 

[thebus88]

All I know is come the 2nd round of the playoffs MANY of you will have forgotten who you thought the CBJ were in Oct/Nov...