Line Combos: Who and What makes the core of this team?

[AslanRH]

It's an interesting question. I think it could be interesting to analyze what's happened with other post rebuild teams......

[snip]


Or they just have a different view of what core means

Thanks for all the replies so far. Lots of good ideas out there.

I think that is the real difference I see so far even just in this thread.

Perhaps its the difference from franchise players and core players to me as I would include many of the "long term complimentary players" as core players but only the core players you listed as franchise players.

Sometimes those core players are lost or replaced during a run due to injury, regression or FA, but are rarely traded away. (Chicago, Pittsburgh)

Sometimes it is a philosophy of what type of player a team needs rather than the specific player. (Boston)

I think the salary cap has definitely changed how teams build a core, and that most teams build more for windows of opportunity and that great teams can extend the window through shrewd drafting, trading, and signings when core guys leave or diminish in skill.

 

[tigervixxxen]

If we are talking long term complimentary players I'd say McLeod for sure. Been here 7 years, has an A, and fits a specific role. Even guys Roy has brought in such as Tanguay and Talbot I don't see leaving at least until their contracts are up. Sure if any of these guys have to be part of a package to get a big piece in a trade they are not untouchable but otherwise I don't think there are any plans to even think about moving them.

Stastny is in between. If he stays, which is the only reason to discuss him in this manner anyway, is probably more complimentary than core but he would be the most important complimentary player though. I could see the argument either way.

 

[Nzap]

Core:
Duchene, Landeskog, EJ,

Core-adjacent:
Varlamov, Stastny, O'Reilly, Tanguay, Hejda, Mac, Giguere

Supplementary:
McGinn, Parenteau, Bordeleau, Barrie, McLeod

Others:
Rest

Basically my reasoning here is that the core won't get traded. At all. Period.
Core-adjacent are players that I feel strongly that the management want to keep at all costs, and only in extreme circumstances and when the worst come the worst might get traded.
Supplementary players are players that give us great depth and are needed for a particular skillset or an upside of some sorts. These players can get traded, but management won't trade them unless they get a very solid deal (Downie was in this group, and he got traded for lower value which is a bit contradictory to what I said unless Sakic/Roy/Sherman had Talbot valued much higher than most).
The rest are players that may have a good role, but are players that won't really get missed if they left. These are players that are good to have, but are not necessary for the team in the sense of breaking the team if they are gone.

Staz, ROR and Mac are on the fence of core, but won't put them there yet. EJ is also at the fence, but I felt he belonged in the top group.

 

[henchman21]

Anyone who doesn't think O'Reilly is very much apart of the Avalanche "core" are, in my opinion, only saying that because they're still harboring resentment for his contract dispute last year.

This is a broad overgeneralization. There are cases to be made on both sides. As long as his contract demands are semi-reasonable (under $6m per) he should be in the core. Odds are that is the case, but it is unknown that is the case

IMO it is probably too early to determine the core. Too many questions with regards to players and the types of players Roy really desires to have on his team.

 

[henchman21]

Core:
Duchene, Landeskog, EJ,

Core-adjacent:
Varlamov, Stastny, O'Reilly, Tanguay, Hejda, Mac, Giguere

Supplementary:
McGinn, Parenteau, Bordeleau, Barrie, McLeod

Others:
Rest

Basically my reasoning here is that the core won't get traded. At all. Period.
Core-adjacent are players that I feel strongly that the management want to keep at all costs, and only in extreme circumstances and when the worst come the worst might get traded.
Supplementary players are players that give us great depth and are needed for a particular skillset or an upside of some sorts. These players can get traded, but management won't trade them unless they get a very solid deal (Downie was in this group, and he got traded for lower value which is a bit contradictory to what I said unless Sakic/Roy/Sherman had Talbot valued much higher than most).
The rest are players that may have a good role, but are players that won't really get missed if they left. These are players that are good to have, but are not necessary for the team in the sense of breaking the team if they are gone.

Staz, ROR and Mac are on the fence of core, but won't put them there yet. EJ is also at the fence, but I felt he belonged in the top group.

I tend to agree with this. Maybe PAP in the core-adjacent and definitely MacK in the core. Overall pretty good.

 

[tigervixxxen]

IMO it is too early to determine the core. Too many questions with regards to players and the types of players Roy really desires to have on his team.

This is true too, we have to see what kind of team Roy wants to build. He can't shape the team he wants overnight. A new regime is always going to want to bring in their guys. We can look at Sakic and Roy drafted MacKinnon, signed Duchene and Landy to contract extensions, traded for Tanguay and Talbot. Outside of those guys anyone is essentially up in the air until they sign an extension.

 

[Mr Serious]

O'Reilly-Duchene-???
Landeskog-MacKinnon-???

???-Johnson

Varlamov

We can fill in the missing wingers with draft picks, free agents, trades. The way I see it our forward core is solid (2/3 of a top-6 already filled). Filling in that other top pairing defensemen is going to be the challenge, and our top priority, to round out our complete team core.

 

[PepsiCenterMagic]

I am doing the core by percentages of probability of being part of the core for next 4-6 years.
95% Matt Duchene
90% Gabriel Landeskog
85% Nathan MacKinnon
75% Erik Johnson
65% Semyon Varlamov
60% P.A. Parenteau
50% Ryan O'Reilly
50% Paul Stastny
50% Cody McLeod
40% Alex Tanguay

Prospects:

70% Duncan Siemens
70% Chris Bigras
50% Joey Hishon
45% Calvin Pickard
40% Michael Sgarbossa
2014 1st round draft pick 35%

 

[PepsiCenterMagic]

I had so much fun, I am doing an extended forecast core group for years 6-10 with percentages.

75% Matt Duchene
70% Gabriel Landeskog
60% Nathan MacKinnon
45% Erik Johnson
40% First round picks 2014-17
35% Chris Bigras
30% Semyon Varlamov
25% Duncan Siemens

 

[DanishAvsfan]

Anyone who doesn't think O'Reilly is very much apart of the Avalanche "core" are, in my opinion, only saying that because they're still harboring resentment for his contract dispute last year.

I have never really understood why people got so upset over O'Reilly holding out for more money. Principally since I do not agree with the sentiment of many fans that players should be loyal to a particular franchise. As if they were on a mission to accomplish a higher goal, or working for a public good. In my opinion the previous regime severely screwed up the negotiations by expecting O'Rielly to take a discount because Duchene did.

I think that Duchene is one of a minority of players who believe he is destined to play for a particular franchise. Bear in mind that he is quite religious. Even if he is not conscious of it he might be transposing his devotion to a secular institution such as the Avalanche, which in a sense become an object of worship for him incarnated in his boyhood idols such as Forsberg, Sakic and Roy. For him it must fell like a total fulfillment of his innermost self. It happens all the time for people.

It would be the equivalent of a young (devout) acolyte getting to work with a Christian Saint in the latter's own Church. As a fan I love him for that, but I also think that the Avalanche brass knows this all to well, even if they do not express it in these terms.

So please do not blame O'Reilly for not being like Duchene. Perhaps he wants to donate a lot of the money he has earned to a noble cause. Perhaps he wants to donate to his parents, or a similar foundation who have been raising kids less fortunate than himself.

In that case O'Reilly playing for the Avalanche - or even hockey in general - , while he might enjoy it, is a means for achieving something else rather than a mission in itself.

It is the previous regime's fault for not understanding the psychology of the different players and trying to force O'Reilly to accept the same conditions as Duchene.

For me O'Reilly definitely should be considered part of the core, and he is without a doubt one of my favorite players on the team. I admire him for standing up for himself. We as fans of the Avalanche should be grateful to O'Reilly in as much as his conflict showed the just how badly this franchise was run on certain core issues under the Lacroix regime. From a non-insider view, their treatment of players with whom they are in contract negotiation to me is the most glaring.

 

[Joe Sakic]

Our "core" group is pretty clear to me:

Duchene
Landeskog
Erik Johnson
MacKinnon
O'Reilly
Varlamov


No, Stastny is not a part of our core group. Still young but not quite young enough compared to our other core forwards. Not to mention he dissapears at times much worse than our other core forwards (except maybe Landeskog but he's the captain and former #2 overall selection so he isn't going anywhere).

 

[Skip2myBordyloo]

Who's still on the team from 8-10 years ago? Point being, I highly doubt either are still wearing an Avalanche jersey then. So what matters is how they perform in the next couple years when we are hopefully contending for a cup.

I understand what your saying but the Avalanche were a team on the verge of burning out those 8-10 years ago(especially with the salary cap putting us in a crunch), looking back 8-10 years the only guys young players who I would of identified with being crucial to keeping were Tanguay, Svatos, Liles and Aeibescher, hardly comparable to the young guys we've stalked up over the recent partly miserable years. If you would have told me that 3 of these players wouldn't have been playing in the NHL i would have laughed but they aren't, the current group in my mind is far superior than that young core 8-10 years ago this team is closer to the 94-95 Nordiques than the 04-06 Avs , The circumstance's are too diffrent to compare to this team 8-10 years ago, due to the talent level of the young player's i would put a healty bet taking our 4 best young players and say they are still going to be league talent's 8-10 years from now. I just don't know if O'Reilly is going to be able and willing to be playing in the shadow of Duchene,Landeskog,Mackinnon for his entire career, he compliments these guys nicely but in my opinion he's going to want to be the guy or one of the guys down the line and I think you give him a sniper years down the road on another team he would certainly be able to, guy is just a winner in my books.

As for who's part of our core, i'm going with Landeskog 100%, i don't think he get's moved unless unforeseen circumstances happen.

Mackinnon 95%
Duchene 95%

I hope he's not moved But i'm not confident in saying O'Reilly is part of our core, I think Stastny was a goner until Roy came in, he may now once again be part of the core, but i have no clue.

Would also hope to think EJ constitutes as part of the core, but i could still imagine him being moved if management found there to be a deal to make our team better, if i threw out a number i would say 75%

Depending on what happens to Varly could significantly alter how much a part of the core he really is, if everything turns out good for him i could see him being a long time fixture, if not i could see us going UFA , maybe even a hard push for Miller.

 

[MvpKinnon]

O'Reilly is worth more now than he was last year. Just because he has proved he can play amazing both at center and wing. I'm hopeful the new regime understands how important he is to the team.

 

[klozge]

Anyone who doesn't think O'Reilly is very much apart of the Avalanche "core" are, in my opinion, only saying that because they're still harboring resentment for his contract dispute last year.

I said he isn't part of the core and I don't care about his contract dispute anymore. It's in the past and Avs got rid of the old management.
He's simply not as important as MacKinnon, Duchene and Landeskog. I think Stastny is closer to being a core member (I don't think he is part of the core) because his role is bigger than O'Reilly's this year and he wears an A on his jersey. If the Avs hadn't drafted MacKinnon things would be different but they did and now there are four very good centermen on the team.
Please don't think I don't hate the thought of losing O'Reilly, though. (I don't think he'll be traded anytime soon anyway.) We had some kind of fantasy game on another board and I was quick to grab the number 37 because I love the guy. I also wanted him to become captain of the Avalanche and I still think he would be a better captain than Landeskog. It doesn't matter how much we like him, unfortunately. He's the guy Roy moved to the wing.

Things can change, though, and I kind of expect O'Reilly to be dominant in the playoffs. That would be all it takes to become a core member again imo.

 

[MvpKinnon]

I said he isn't part of the core and I don't care about his contract dispute anymore. It's in the past and Avs got rid of the old management.
He's simply not as important as MacKinnon, Duchene and Landeskog. I think Stastny is closer to being a core member (I don't think he is part of the core) because his role is bigger than O'Reilly's this year and he wears an A on his jersey. If the Avs hadn't drafted MacKinnon things would be different but they did and now there are four very good centermen on the team.
Please don't think I don't hate the thought of losing O'Reilly, though. (I don't think he'll be traded anytime soon anyway.) We had some kind of fantasy game on another board and I was quick to grab the number 37 because I love the guy. I also wanted him to become captain of the Avalanche and I still think he would be a better captain than Landeskog. It doesn't matter how much we like him, unfortunately. He's the guy Roy moved to the wing.

Things can change, though, and I kind of expect O'Reilly to be dominant in the playoffs. That would be all it takes to become a core member again imo.

First of all he's number 90 and he leads all Avs forwards in ice time. 20:00 per game on average. 4th of all players. He does a lot that doesn't show on the scoreboard.

 

[Pokecheque]

O'Reilly is a BIG part of the Avs' transition game. No one can disrupt the opposition's rush better than him. It's uncanny how good he is at creating turnovers. And of course Roy has been using him to shut down the opposition's best. I sure hope he is part of the core. As great as Stastny has been playing, he is not playing a "bigger role" than O'Reilly. He's putting up more points, which is a great thing of course, but it's not necessarily a bigger role.

Don't know what the core is in management's eyes, but IMO it should be Duchene, O'Reilly, Landeskog, and MacKinnon. On the back end obviously we have the best defensive pairing we've had in years in EJ and Hejda, I would think those guys are core pieces but keep in mind Hejda's 35.

 

[henchman21]

O'Reilly is a BIG part of the Avs' transition game. No one can disrupt the opposition's rush better than him. It's uncanny how good he is at creating turnovers. And of course Roy has been using him to shut down the opposition's best. I sure hope he is part of the core. As great as Stastny has been playing, he is not playing a "bigger role" than O'Reilly. He's putting up more points, which is a great thing of course, but it's not necessarily a bigger role.

Don't know what the core is in management's eyes, but IMO it should be Duchene, O'Reilly, Landeskog, and MacKinnon. On the back end obviously we have the best defensive pairing we've had in years in EJ and Hejda, I would think those guys are core pieces but keep in mind Hejda's 35.

Until injuries hit, Stastny's has played the other team's top lines. I expect that to be the case again now that Stastny is back.

 

[PAZ]

I understand what your saying but the Avalanche were a team on the verge of burning out those 8-10 years ago(especially with the salary cap putting us in a crunch)

Point being is that looking into the future for more than 5 years is a recipe for disaster, besides counting on your core. I guess I just defined what my definition of core would be.

Core: Landeskog, Duchene, O'Reilly, EJ, Mackinnon

The rest are complimentary. Other players like Stastny, Hejda, Varlamov are all integral to the team's success, but I can't count them as the core. A prime example would be the 2008-2009 Hawks, the first year they took the next step. This was their team back then.

Martin Havlat
Patrick Kane
Jonathan Toews
Brent Seabrook
Dave Bolland
Kris Versteeg
Patrick Sharp
Brian Campbell
Dustin Byfuglien
Cam Barker
Duncan Keith
Samuel Pahlsson
Adam Burish
Troy Brouwer
Samuel Pahlsson
Matt Walker
Colin Fraser
Andrew Ladd
Nikolai Khabibulin
Cristobal Huet

Kane, Toews, Sharp, Seabrook, and Keith are their core, and the only ones left on their team. Just using Chicago as an example to show how much can change in the span of 5 years. They would have loved to keep played like Buff, Ladd, Versteeg (traded back for him), Campbell, but when it came down to it, they got traded before their core.

 

[ColoradoSportsFan]

He does a lot that doesn't show on the scoreboard.

So wait...it's acceptable to use this to defend ROR but not Stastny?

 

[Sheet]

IMO, A core changes with the coach. There's no set in stone winning formula in the NHL. A team like Boston, who is definitely a cup contender, isn't built anywhere near the way Pittsburgh, Chicago, or even STL (Although there is similarities).

@Av-american
I'm going to disagree here.. Staz, in my opinion, is playing a much larger role then ROR, and even Duchene. Playing the toughest minutes and producing? The production is a complimentary benefit as far as I'm concerned, but that line has been shockingly good at shutting down the oppositions top lines.

In RoR's defense, I think he'd be far better on a shutdown line then Staz is, and I think Staz would be much better on a pure scoring line then RoR is, but I'm sure there's a reason they're reversed.

Definitely not pissing in O'Money's cheerios. It's just how it is.

First of all he's number 90 and he leads all Avs forwards in ice time. 20:00 per game on average. 4th of all players. He does a lot that doesn't show on the scoreboard.

Hunwick can compete. Last year anyway.

And he did a lot that didn't show up on the scoreb... wait.. nevermind. He did indeed do a lot that showed up on the scoreboards.. Just not our side of it.

 

[AslanRH]

So wait...it's acceptable to use this to defend ROR but not Stastny?

Nope. I figured that out last year.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Duchene, Landeskog, ROR, Stastny(maybe), EJ, Varlamov and Mackinnon.

 

[RockLobster]

I said he isn't part of the core and I don't care about his contract dispute anymore. It's in the past and Avs got rid of the old management.
He's simply not as important as MacKinnon, Duchene and Landeskog. I think Stastny is closer to being a core member (I don't think he is part of the core) because his role is bigger than O'Reilly's this year and he wears an A on his jersey. If the Avs hadn't drafted MacKinnon things would be different but they did and now there are four very good centermen on the team.
Please don't think I don't hate the thought of losing O'Reilly, though. (I don't think he'll be traded anytime soon anyway.) We had some kind of fantasy game on another board and I was quick to grab the number 37 because I love the guy. I also wanted him to become captain of the Avalanche and I still think he would be a better captain than Landeskog. It doesn't matter how much we like him, unfortunately. He's the guy Roy moved to the wing.

Things can change, though, and I kind of expect O'Reilly to be dominant in the playoffs. That would be all it takes to become a core member again imo.

The reason I believe what I believe is because BEFORE this whole Contract Nonsense started I dare say that NO ONE questioned that O'Reilly was a player that the franchise needed to keep in its core.

The moment the dispute happened the opinion on O'Reilly got split, one side understood that Hockey has a large business side and O'Reilly is entitled to get as much as he wants (especially when the former Avalanche brass quite literally insulted him at the negotiating table) and the side who now believes that he's only about money and will forever question his motives.

I understand where the 2nd side comes from, I really do, but I don't believe that anyone should question his commitment to the team and, most importantly, his value to the team.

When the Avalanche win a Stanley Cup with this current crop of players (and I solemnly believe that they will), you bet your *** I believe that Ryan O'Reilly will be a huge part of that happening.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Stastny and O'Reilly both have 17 points, one 9/8 and the other 8/9. So I'd say their roles and production are pretty similar, or at least more similar to eachother than any other teammate.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

The reason I believe what I believe is because BEFORE this whole Contract Nonsense started I dare say that NO ONE questioned that O'Reilly was a player that the franchise needed to keep in its core.

The moment the dispute happened the opinion on O'Reilly got split, one side understood that Hockey has a large business side and O'Reilly is entitled to get as much as he wants (especially when the former Avalanche brass quite literally insulted him at the negotiating table) and the side who now believes that he's only about money and will forever question his motives.

I understand where the 2nd side comes from, I really do, but I don't believe that anyone should question his commitment to the team and, most importantly, his value to the team.

When the Avalanche win a Stanley Cup with this current crop of players (and I solemnly believe that they will), you bet your *** I believe that Ryan O'Reilly will be a huge part of that happening.

I believe the AVs will be able to win a cup with or without ROR. However, I believe they will win it sooner and possibly more of them with him on the team than otherwise. It was a fluke goal I know but seriously...


Or this one against the Canes...



Or this one in the preseason against the Kings this year....



Or this one against the Panthers in 2012...



When the game means the most and the stakes are the highest, I'd really like to have this kid on my team.