Which Trade was Burke's best *** Reset April 28, 2014 ***

[seanlinden]

On the Gunnarson replacing Beauchemin topic, is it really that ambitious? Beauchmin while he was here in his one full season didn't pass 30 points and was a minus player. I could see Gunner producing more or about equal to Beauchemins 26 points and Gunner hopefully can be as good or better defensively. HE also comes cheaper.

Yeah it is. Beauchemin never had more than 30 points because we never had the size up front to pick up points from the blueline.... plus you're asking Gunnarsson to be a top shutdown guy aswell.

Gunnarsson is cheaper for a reason, he's a nice fit as a #5 defenceman... and it's not like Beauchemin meant we couldn't keep Gunnarsson. In fact, quite the opposite, it would've given Gunnarsson another year to develop then we can make a decision on Beauch.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Does the fact that Burke was handcuffed by Kaberle's NTC and naming of only 1 team he would wave the NTC, though Burke has said he would try and if he couldn't make a deal he would come back to Tomas for a 2nd team, but who knows if Tomas was okay with this...make this Burke's best given the degree of difficulty? Interesting perspective.

 

[seanlinden]

Does the fact that Burke was handcuffed by Kaberle's NTC and naming of only 1 team he would wave the NTC, though Burke has said he would try and if he couldn't make deal he would come back to Tomas for a 2nd team, but who knows if Tomas was okay with this...make this Burke's best given the degree of difficulty? Interesting perspective.

Absolutely.

Plus, Burke really hasn't had that many other great trades to make.

He's made senseless contract acquisitions, and while Kessel was obviously the player we needed in our system, he paid an extremely steep price to do so. Other than that, none of the trades have the scale to be compared to these.

 

[NigelTufnel]

No, not at all. He's got the ability to rush the puck when the other team gets caught changing, but he has absolutely no poise under pressure in his own end, and that is by far the most important element of puckmoving.

It absolutely is an overcommitment of financial assets, as illustrated by the players we traded away. The diference between Phaneuf & White's salary was $3.5m. That difference is Matt Stajan, who would've been a massive upgrade to our centre situation last year. Furthermore, Phaneuf didn't add anything to the blueline that we didn't already have. Schenn & Komisarek were the big-minute physical guys. Beauchemin was a hybrid with a hard and accurate shot from the point. Ian White was a dangerous puck rusher. What he did do -- was put us short on puckmoving ability because we lost Ian White.

It was shortsighted because Burke made the move to make a statement because he was upset with his team, while ignoring the long term cap impacts of the move he made.

Getting a project like Gardiner simply wasn't worth losing a valuable defenceman in Beauchemin and taking on a bad contract like Lupul.

I'm not going to disagree that phaneuf has a fairly low hockey IQ (or poise as you've called it), but because of his physical attributes, he's able to rush the puck which I would say gives him some puck moving ability.

What I will disagree with however, is that Stajan would constitute any sort of upgrade on our centres, let alone a massive one. Stajan was ok and all, but he was nothing more than a 3rd line centre, easily replacable. So I really dont see how that could be the sticking point.

Also, there's no way you can say with any certainty that the reason Burke pulled the trigger on the deal was because of some short-sighted feeling of being upset with the team. I always thought he did it because an opportunity to grab a player with a high upside but inflated contract presented itself. That seems to be somewhat of his MO.

I really think you're getting too hung up on the cap hit aspect of things. Of any asset a hockey team like the leafs has at it's disposal, that's the most easily remedied.

 

[realeafan10]

although i cant really decide on which is best, i do think the lupul trade is very underrated by many fans. very excited to see a full season of lupul and gardiner looks promising, plus i guess it helps that i was not a fan of beauchemen at all

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Yeah it is. Beauchemin never had more than 30 points because we never had the size up front to pick up points from the blueline.... plus you're asking Gunnarsson to be a top shutdown guy aswell.

Gunnarsson is cheaper for a reason, he's a nice fit as a #5 defenceman... and it's not like Beauchemin meant we couldn't keep Gunnarsson. In fact, quite the opposite, it would've given Gunnarsson another year to develop then we can make a decision on Beauch.

For the being a top defensive guy, he won't and shouldn't be asked of that with guys like Schenn, Aulie, Phaneuf and even Komi on the back end. Also even when Beauchemin was here for half of the second year his point totals weren't all that great. This during the time with the Grabo-Kuli-Mac line clicking as well.

As for developing, thanks to the acquisition of Liles he has another year in the 5-6 role to develop as Liles will take his spot in the top 4 and handle the PP duties.

 

[wandering goat]

I'd have to say the Kaberle one. After trying to deal him over and over with little results, faced with the prospect of having to trade with (I believe) only one team, who know that we'd just lose him for nothing in the offseason, and with Kab's contract expiring, we got a hell of a deal. Boston's happy too of course, with the cup win, but I never expected us to get even close to that much for Kabs given the circumstances. The Phaneuf trade is definitely up there though.

 

[Fiery]

We absolutely robbed Calgary with the Phaneuf trade.

 

[seanlinden]

For the being a top defensive guy, he won't and shouldn't be asked of that with guys like Schenn, Aulie, Phaneuf and even Komi on the back end. Also even when Beauchemin was here for half of the second year his point totals weren't all that great. This during the time with the Grabo-Kuli-Mac line clicking as well.

As for developing, thanks to the acquisition of Liles he has another year in the 5-6 role to develop as Liles will take his spot in the top 4 and handle the PP duties.

You seem to be missing out on the very basic problem the Leafs have. They have 4 defencemen who can be shutdown guys, BUT NONE OF THEM CAN SUCCEED TOGETHER. This team needs a pair that they can send out against the other team's top units. That pair needs to be able to physically shut them down (we've got plenty of that) and move the puck north. We don't have a guy to do that. Beauchemin was that guy.

The Grabo line clicked all year, and they don't generate points from the D because Grabo/Kulemin are the catalysts and like to play high in the zone.

Liles replaces Kaberle's role, again, REALLY simple.

I'm not going to disagree that phaneuf has a fairly low hockey IQ (or poise as you've called it), but because of his physical attributes, he's able to rush the puck which I would say gives him some puck moving ability.

What I will disagree with however, is that Stajan would constitute any sort of upgrade on our centres, let alone a massive one. Stajan was ok and all, but he was nothing more than a 3rd line centre, easily replacable. So I really dont see how that could be the sticking point.

Also, there's no way you can say with any certainty that the reason Burke pulled the trigger on the deal was because of some short-sighted feeling of being upset with the team. I always thought he did it because an opportunity to grab a player with a high upside but inflated contract presented itself. That seems to be somewhat of his MO.

I really think you're getting too hung up on the cap hit aspect of things. Of any asset a hockey team like the leafs has at it's disposal, that's the most easily remedied.

The problem is -- Phaneuf's puck rushing is not the difference maker. He's good enough to do it when there's no pressure on, but that's irrelevant because when there's no pressure on, we're going to get the puck out of the zone regardless. What the Leafs need is a guy to play with Phaneuf that can get the puck out under duress. Beauchemin wasn't great at it, but he's far better than our options now.

You do realize that Stajan put up 55 points in his last full season as a leaf?
You do realize that Stajan was on his way to 60 points before being traded?
You do realize that we had at least 2 of Tim Brent, Darryl Boyce, Christian Hanson and John Mitchell in the lineup on most nights?

Stajan is at best a 2nd line centre, and when you're centres are a 2nd liner (Grabo), a 3rd liner (Bozak), and a couple of 4th liners / AHLers (Hanson, Mitchell, Boyce, Brent), adding a #2 centre is a massive upgrade no matter which way you slice it. Sure, you could argue that Stajan is overpaid at $3.5m, but Phaneuf's overpaid at $6.5m. At least Stajan would've satisfied a glaring hole in our roster last year.

Burke made the deal because he's an inept GM... what went through his head really doesn't matter.

There's too many other teams that have the full use of cap at their disposal to be wasting it.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Won't quote, too long.

Anyways, I know Liles replaces Kabs, I just said Liles helped with Gunners development because it gives Gunner a chance to play a lesser role to develop.

I'll agree that we don't have that one big shutdown pair like other teams. Phaneuf and Aulie are the closest we have to that but neither of them are that great of a puck mover.

No need to be condescending.

 

[JMcLeaf]

Komisarek's play wasn't even that bad. Sure, he struggled at the beginning, so did Beauchemin. Lots of players struggle when they get to their new teams. Burke's problem was that when he traded for Phaneuf -- he put Komisarek in a positon to fail, and that's how you put your team in a position to fail. When you have the ability to spend to the cap, you should be well into the playoffs if you can get the most out of all your players.

You've got no basis to suggest that Phaneuf impacted Schenn's development. You weren't in the room.

The failure of the Anaheim trade wasn't about risk, it just wasn't a good trade to make. Even if Lupul stays healthy, it's not a good deal. We traded a valuable defenceman for a forward who blocks our progress towards becoming a good team. His so-called "chemistry" with Kessel lasted about as long as Versteeg's chemistry with Kessel, and happened in late games of the season which have always been abnormally good for us. Plus, even with Reimer in goal, that line was one of our worst on the ice at any given time.

Staying the course isn't the only way to get things done. Trades are and can be good, it just so happens that these weren't good trades.

How did Burke put Komisarek in a position to fail? Is it because it meant Komi would get less minutes? And you feel Komi only plays well when he is getting top minutes? Or do you mean something else?

Yes that's true that I wasn't in the dressing room and I don't know for sure but I just feel Schenn started to play better after we acquired Phaneuf. Much more aggressive.

I'll admit that I don't think Lupul is the perfect winger for Kessel. The perfect winger would be someone with size who can create room for Kessel and win puck battles. Lupul does have decent size and he's not afraid to get hit. Something that is even more important though is that he has a very good shot. This means that the other team has to be aware of him too. They can't just cover Kessel because they know Lupul has the ability to put the puck in the back of the net. Ideally what I wanted to happen was we acquired a guy like Troy Brouwer. We could have Lupul on the 1st line with Kessel, and Brouwer on the third on most nights. There would of course be times where Kessel and Lupul aren't just clicking and this when you throw Brouwer up with Kessel to give the line a different look and Lupul down with Army.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I'd have to say the Kaberle one. After trying to deal him over and over with little results, faced with the prospect of having to trade with (I believe) only one team, who know that we'd just lose him for nothing in the offseason, and with Kab's contract expiring, we got a hell of a deal. Boston's happy too of course, with the cup win, but I never expected us to get even close to that much for Kabs given the circumstances. The Phaneuf trade is definitely up there though.

Good points.

 

[The Apologist]

You seem to be missing out on the very basic problem the Leafs have. They have 4 defencemen who can be shutdown guys, BUT NONE OF THEM CAN SUCCEED TOGETHER. This team needs a pair that they can send out against the other team's top units. That pair needs to be able to physically shut them down (we've got plenty of that) and move the puck north. We don't have a guy to do that. Beauchemin was that guy.

The Grabo line clicked all year, and they don't generate points from the D because Grabo/Kulemin are the catalysts and like to play high in the zone.

Liles replaces Kaberle's role, again, REALLY simple.

Really? Maybe somebody should have told him that, because I don't remember seeing that at all when he was a Leaf.

 

[SaskaToba]

I'd have to group the Jason Blake and Vesa Toskala for J.S. Giguere in this category.

Blake was way too terrible for his salary ---> 1-0 T.

Toskala was used to acquire McElhinney (prob worst backup ever) and now he's (Toskala) playing in his hometown in Finland --------->2-0 T.

Giguere served his purpose as a mentor to Gustavsson and Reimer while tons of cap space was available --------> Sweep

 

[Hero]

Phaneuf and Aulie for spares, was amazing.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

how the hell does one vote anything but the phaneuf trade...that was just an awesome trade and we kicked ass . We gained our captain, a hall gill type player and at one point a good pk specialist for bunch of scraps...the others done even come close.

 

[Lauro]

Getting rid of Blake and Toskala belongs here.

Biggest miss of Burke or who else was GM at this time was not getting rid of seanlinden during the Thrashers fans draft oO

 

[The Hutch]

The Phaneuf trade package did the most to make an immediate change to the team. I concur with those who have voted for that one as well.

I'm relatively new to being a Leafs fan, as I have admitted previously, and the trade of Phaneuf (As a Calgary fan, honestly one of my favourite players) was interpreted by me to be a sign that Toronto was the right choice to make.

Yep, I flipped favourite teams. Who can call it bandwagon jumping, though? It's not like I saddled up to a guaranteed winner.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

If you get a player like Phaneuf with out giving up anything significant then that got to be your best deal. I now Phaneuf had issues at Calgary and is said to not care to much about working hard on the defensive aspect of his game but he got leadership skills, is an amazing offensive talent and tough as nails and would be a key player for most teams. One of Burkes best deals. And he also got Aulie who looks like developing in to a key player to.

 

[Platapie]

We absolutely robbed Calgary with the Phaneuf trade.

This. I still don't understand how that deal happened. We gave up nothing of consequence and received a very talented player. The scary thing is that late last year he started to show flashes of greatness and remind us why he was so coveted and talked about in recent years.

Phaneuf is a stud. The guys we gave up were mediocre at best, terrible at worst. Amazing deal.

 

[seanlinden]

How did Burke put Komisarek in a position to fail? Is it because it meant Komi would get less minutes? And you feel Komi only plays well when he is getting top minutes? Or do you mean something else?

Yes that's true that I wasn't in the dressing room and I don't know for sure but I just feel Schenn started to play better after we acquired Phaneuf. Much more aggressive.

I'll admit that I don't think Lupul is the perfect winger for Kessel. The perfect winger would be someone with size who can create room for Kessel and win puck battles. Lupul does have decent size and he's not afraid to get hit. Something that is even more important though is that he has a very good shot. This means that the other team has to be aware of him too. They can't just cover Kessel because they know Lupul has the ability to put the puck in the back of the net. Ideally what I wanted to happen was we acquired a guy like Troy Brouwer. We could have Lupul on the 1st line with Kessel, and Brouwer on the third on most nights. There would of course be times where Kessel and Lupul aren't just clicking and this when you throw Brouwer up with Kessel to give the line a different look and Lupul down with Army.

Absolutely. When you take a bonafide top 4 shutdown guy, and put 2 defencemen infront of him, you set him up to fail.

Schenn started to play better as he got more experienced in the league, could have been a result of Phaneuf, could have been completely unrelated.

Lupul's so-called "size and willingness to get hit" is only in comparison to our other top 6 forwards, not the league. He's average in both of those regards, and Kessel needs to play with somebody who compensates for him. The shot for Lupul isn't really something we need, as the left winger on that line should rarely be in shooting position. They should be in teh dirty areas keeping the puck in the offensive zone instead of playing the end-to-end hockey that made the Kessel-Lupul line our worst down the stretch.

Brouwer would've been a nice addition, as would've Brooks Laich. The problem is that Lupul occupies the cap space required for both, and we need to leave a spot open on the 3rd line for Kadri.


edit: @ all the people talking positively towards the Phaneuf trade, I guess you think Florida pulled off a major coup getting Brian Campbell for Rostislav Olesz...

 

[Christ]

1.Phaneuf
2. Kaberle
3. Beauchamin
4. Versteeg

Agree with this. A bunch of spare parts for a desperatly needed leader and captain, a very solid prospect defender who played as a part of our first defensive pairing and a decent checker wins. The Kaberle deal is a solid second...Liles pretty much replaces everything we lost in Kaberle, whose game has been on the downswing for some time making Colburn and the first just gravey.

 

[Mansfield]

The Phaneuf deal was highway robbery. So yeah, that one.

This. Kaberle trade may be a close second depending on how colborne pans out.

 

[Shaun_W_W]

Man I can't believe how happy I am with all these trades, I chose the Dion one which I think is the best until one or more of Biggs/Colborne/Gardiner/Percy/Leivo pan out.

Threads like this remind me why I have such faith in Burke

 

[Leafidelity]

edit: @ all the people talking positively towards the Phaneuf trade, I guess you think Florida pulled off a major coup getting Brian Campbell for Rostislav Olesz...

You need a satire show.