Speculation: Which one do you take if any?

[Aladyyn]

You put any semi-decent forward on Eichel's wing and on the top PP and he will be "one of our best point makers". Sam has not shown he can drive offense how he is expected considering his pedigree. Compare his play (not numbers, cause there is no comparison there) to how some of the premier young talent does and you can see easily he doesn't belong truly in that elite league.

Also can people stop using the excuse "he didin't play on his natural position" as if playing Jack's wing and on the top PP in the league is a terrible place to be slotted at in the context of the league. It is becoming a bit of a joke listening to lame excuses.

I don't hate the guy and if the rest of the team was perfect of course he stays and contributes, but I truly think we get better trade value out of him right now, then I think he delivers to the team if he stays on and plays for us. If he has another season like the past 2 where he doesn't show significant improvement again his value will nosedive compared to now, as now I think it is still quite high in the league.

"Doesn't drive offense"

1st in shot attempts for
2nd in unblocked shot attempts for
1st in expected goals for
1st in scoring chances for

Also yes, playing on wing was a big issue, because of how Bylsma's system worked. Sam is neither big nor fast and you need to be at least one, if not both to be somewhat effective in the scheme.

And don't talk about the PP when he was being used like Tomas Holmstrom. Just don't.

 

[Aladyyn]

As for "no significant improvement", he went from having more goals than assists to being the team's best playmaker. Playmaker being, you know, the kind of player he always was?

Last year the put-down narrative was that his stats get padded from scoring goals in front of the net and now that he develops other parts of the game it obviously changes.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

So you think he's going to regress after this year?

why would he need to regress?

 

[Jim Bob]

And don't talk about the PP when he was being used like Tomas Holmstrom. Just don't.

Reinhart had as many PP Pts this year as Toews and Bergeron.

He also had as many PP goals as Laine, Tarasenko, Panarin, and more than Matthews.

He's elite!

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

So, you spend the first 2/3s of that post saying that Reinhart isn't an elite young talent and that he doesn't drive offense.

Then you finish it up by saying trade him because he has so much trade value.

Sorry, but if Reinhart isn't an elite young talent and doesn't drive offense, how much trade value does he have?

And if he has a lot of trade value, then wouldn't that mean that he has a ton of untapped potential and the Sabres might want to be patient with him?

I hope he has high trade value, at least amongst other NHL fans it seems he does, maybe GMs have the same opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player and he has good value in my eyes, too, considering his age and yes he has produced to some extend. Just don't think he ever becomes elite from what he has shown so far, but I'm sure there is some GM in the league that may disagree and rate him much higher based on his smarts and his draft pedigree. If you find a trade partner that considers him to have elite potential, you will get good return. That's where you find value trade for us.

So you think he's going to regress after this year?

No, of course not, but if he doesn't significantly improve, his value goes down simply because his I think high trade value is based on the presumption that he still has a chance to become elite (I don't believe it but I doubt it's that hard to find a GM that has seen him play and does). If any team trades a good young D for him it is based on the concept he would get better than he is now IMO.

 

[Aladyyn]

There were 2 players on this team able to overcome Dan Bylsma's idiocy with their skills. One of them is an untouchable, guaranteed elite player. The other is never going to be elite and should be used as trade bait according to some people. Why the double standard?

 

[Aladyyn]

I hope he has high trade value, at least amongst other NHL fans it seems he does, maybe GMs have the same opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player and he has good value in my eyes, too, considering his age and yes he has produced to some extend. Just don't think he ever becomes elite from what he has shown so far, but I'm sure there is some GM in the league that may disagree and rate him much higher based on his smarts and his draft pedigree. If you find a trade partner that considers him to have elite potential, you will get good return. That's where you find value trade for us.



No, of course not, but if he doesn't significantly improve, his value goes down simply because his I think high trade value is based on the presumption that he still has a chance to become elite (I don't believe it but I doubt it's that hard to find a GM that has seen him play and does). If any team trades a good young D for him it is based on the concept he would get better than he is now IMO.

We should offer him a job if we do find him.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

Sam is neither big nor fast and you need to be at least one, if not both to be somewhat effective in the scheme.

I don't care about advanced stats. That statement above is all that matters to me. I would also add he doesn't have the determination and hunger to create offense of some the other premier talent in the league.

His skill and smarts cannot compensate the above and make him elite. You find a GM that has not realized this and take one of their quality D in return.

 

[Aladyyn]

Those pesky advanced stats like shots and scoring chances!

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

Those pesky advanced stats like shots and scoring chances!

He played on Eichel's wing on our primary scoring line all year long and on the top PP as well. I don't need any reason to over-consider any stats when considering a player in his position. Eye-meter is better for me and comparing it to what I see from his comparables on other teams.

 

[Aladyyn]

"He's not that good because I say so."

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

The whole season except, you know, the half of the season Eichel was injured.

Every good player Reinhart plays with gets alarmingly worse away from him. Must be coincidence.

 

[Dingo44]

If Botterill is into analytics like some people claim Reinhart isn't going anywhere.

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

As for "no significant improvement", he went from having more goals than assists to being the team's best playmaker. Playmaker being, you know, the kind of player he always was?

Last year the put-down narrative was that his stats get padded from scoring goals in front of the net and now that he develops other parts of the game it obviously changes.

he actually had 1 more goal on the PP this season than last, his assists went from 2 to 8

the big movement was his shooting percentage dropping from almost 14 to just under 10, there's a reasonable argument that he overachieved his rookie season and that it was a quality effort to continue to improve from that performance

the problem with arguing something on the boards, you think they should trade Reinhart and you get drowned out by the guy that thinks Sam isnt hungry enough to compete with top talent, whatever the hell that means

 

[Jim Bob]

"He's not that good because I say so."

Your eye-meter isn't properly calibrated.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

The whole season except, you know, the half of the season Eichel was injured.

Every good player Reinhart plays with gets alarmingly worse away from him. Must be coincidence.

Eichel player 61 games out of 82. Half... Sam had 10 points in 21 games in September and October without Eichel. That 40 points pace truly is elite eh? Total mistake to trade him for top D prospect. As I said, he doesn't drive offence how I expect someone of his pedigree to and that is not based on these stats or any other stats, simply on what my impression is from watching him play. Yes, it is my opinion clearly and it's not some sort of fact. The fact is the poll is split and there will be people on either side of the spectrum of opinions about Sam.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I don't care about advanced stats. That statement above is all that matters to me. I would also add he doesn't have the determination and hunger to create offense of some the other premier talent in the league.

His skill and smarts cannot compensate the above and make him elite. You find a GM that has not realized this and take one of their quality D in return.

Uh, they can't? Because it looks like he's already the #1 player on the entire team WRT tilting the ice in the Sabres' favor. Every player he's played with is worse without him than with him, including Eichel.

I get that some of these "eye test" people are mad because Reinhart's skillset isn't flashy, but you know what it is? Incredibly effective. And let's not forget that he's still developing. There's plenty more to come from him.

 

[OkimLom]

He played on Eichel's wing on our primary scoring line all year long and on the top PP as well. I don't need any reason to over-consider any stats when considering a player in his position. Eye-meter is better for me and comparing it to what I see from his comparables on other teams.

Surely you can see the system his comparables are in and realize what Sam has to work through, right?

Kind of interesting to see the % of PP Points to their total points for the team's top 5 guys:

Eichel: 43%
ROR: 44%
Reinhart: 37%
Okposo: 52%
Ristolainen: 56%

Teams Around Buffalo's standings and where teams' best point scorers are:

Los Angeles: Scored Same number of goals of Buffalo
Carter: 33%
Kopitar: 37%
Pearson: 19%
Doughty: 44%
Martinez: 39%

Toronto: 2nd Ranked PP behind Buffalo:
Matthews: 31%
JVR: 31%
Kadri: 28%
Nylander: 43%
Marner: 35%

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

...you get drowned out by the guy that thinks Sam isnt hungry enough to compete with top talent, whatever the hell that means

Watch Erik Karlsson and maybe you will understand what it means. He may have elite skill and vision, but if he didn't play with the desire and determination to create offense the way he actually does despite the rather mediocre players he is surrounded by in Ottawa, he wouldn't be in the discussion for top3 player in the league.

 

[Sabre the Win]

I hope he has high trade value, at least amongst other NHL fans it seems he does, maybe GMs have the same opinion. I'm not saying he's a bad player and he has good value in my eyes, too, considering his age and yes he has produced to some extend. Just don't think he ever becomes elite from what he has shown so far, but I'm sure there is some GM in the league that may disagree and rate him much higher based on his smarts and his draft pedigree. If you find a trade partner that considers him to have elite potential, you will get good return. That's where you find value trade for us.

You can say the same for Hanifin and yet you want to trade a unsure thing for an unsure thing because why?

Eichel player 61 games out of 82. Half... Sam had 10 points in 21 games in September and October without Eichel. That 40 points pace truly is elite eh? Total mistake to trade him for top D prospect. As I said, he doesn't drive offence how I expect someone of his pedigree to and that is not based on these stats or any other stats, simply on what my impression is from watching him play. Yes, it is my opinion clearly and it's not some sort of fact. The fact is the poll is split and there will be people on either side of the spectrum of opinions about Sam.

What? Why was he 3rd best on the team in that regard? You're silly.

 

[Aladyyn]

he actually had 1 more goal on the PP this season than last, his assists went from 2 to 8

the big movement was his shooting percentage dropping from almost 14 to just under 10, there's a reasonable argument that he overachieved his rookie season and that it was a quality effort to continue to improve from that performance

the problem with arguing something on the boards, you think they should trade Reinhart and you get drowned out by the guy that thinks Sam isnt hungry enough to compete with top talent, whatever the hell that means

He shot 5% at even strength this season, above 10% last season.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

And let's not forget that he's still developing. There's plenty more to come from him.

If he stays and this actually happens I'm a happy fan. Can we leave it at that?

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

You can say the same for Hanifin and yet you want to trade a unsure thing for an unsure thing because why?

Because D is position of need now for me and likely in the future (unless maybe Makar drops and develops well - even then at least 2 years away from where Hanifin is now), C isn't exactly terrible with ROR and Eichel on the roster already and playing well. I'm not saying Hanifin has blown the league away, or Brodin, or whoever. The whole reason Carolina might trade Hanifin for Reinhart is because there's likely similar amount of risk in both not developing. I accept that. Just for me D is more important to fix than having Reinhart as 3C or on Eichel's wing. Simple as that.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Eichel player 61 games out of 82. Half... Sam had 10 points in 21 games in September and October without Eichel. That 40 points pace truly is elite eh? Total mistake to trade him for top D prospect. As I said, he doesn't drive offence how I expect someone of his pedigree to and that is not based on these stats or any other stats, simply on what my impression is from watching him play. Yes, it is my opinion clearly and it's not some sort of fact. The fact is the poll is split and there will be people on either side of the spectrum of opinions about Sam.

You know that was good for second on the team in points over that span, right?

 

[Push Dr Tracksuit]

Watch Erik Karlsson and maybe you will understand what it means. He may have elite skill and vision, but if he didn't play with the desire and determination to create offense the way he actually does despite the rather mediocre players he is surrounded by in Ottawa, he wouldn't be in the discussion for top3 player in the league.

so i should watch a player that doesn't share almost any of sams skillset and draw conclusion that the game sam plays to fit his skillset is an example of not being hungry enough? you can't explain hungry, its another one of those brilliant terms that defines a set of behaviors commonly seen in successful people, can you define some behaviors of sam that dont demonstrate being hungry?