Speculation: Which one do you take if any?

[OkimLom]

Why is a potential 55-60 point player not good enough to some around here? Talk about un realistic expectations in the state the NHL is now with scoring lower than ever.

This is why we cant have nice things. Everyone and everything is better than what Buffalo has it seems.

Not sure, probably has something to do with the draft pick spot...oh who am I kidding it has 100% to do with where he was drated at.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

btw Alex Ovechkin is currently on the 3rd line

what a bum

He's there because:

1. He played like a bum.

2. Wash/Trotz were desperate and decided to coy the Kessel move.

This has about 5% relevance to Reinhart.

Since we somehow switched to Washington, have you seen their D and compared it with ours recently?

 

[Sabre the Win]

He's there because:

1. He played like a bum.

2. Wash/Trotz were desperate and decided to coy the Kessel move.

This has about 5% relevance to Reinhart.

Since we somehow switched to Washington, have you seen their D and compared it with ours recently?

Have you compared Toronto's D with ours? Better yet have you compared their forwards with ours?

Here's a hint, Our D is better their Forwards are better.

They made the playoffs and we did not.

The D isn't the only problem, the huge fact that we cant score 5 on 5 is but yeah lets just trade and make a new hole to cover a hole that might have been made from coaching.

 

[Dingo44]

Why is a potential 55-60 point player not good enough to some around here? Talk about un realistic expectations in the state the NHL is now with scoring lower than ever.

This is why we cant have nice things. Everyone and everything is better than what Buffalo has it seems.

We should just get rid of O'Reilly then.. only put up 55 points.

and everyone on this team who put up under 50 points.. Lets just ship them off for pucks.

It's because when you draft #2 overall people are shocked that players drafted after SECOND OVERALL are also very good.

They also like to constantly bring up something that they are completely powerless to change. You know who else does that? LOSERS.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

Have you compared Toronto's D with ours? Better yet have you compared their forwards with ours?

Here's a hint, Our D is better their Forwards are better.

They made the playoffs and we did not.

The D isn't the only problem, the huge fact that we cant score 5 on 5 is but yeah lets just trade and make a new hole to cover a hole that might have been made from coaching.

I don't bring Washington and Pittsburg into the topic, he does. Just wanted to show I can spin his silly argument against his.

Toronto made playoffs because they have a decent coach, and we didn't because we don't. I don't rate their roster as better than ours.

 

[Aladyyn]

Not sure, probably has something to do with the draft pick spot...oh who am I kidding it has 100% to do with where he was drated at.

It also has something to do with who drafted him.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Here's a hint, Our D is better their Forwards are better.

They made the playoffs and we did not.

One of these statements is true...

 

[Sabre the Win]

One of these statements is true...

Prove me wrong then. You can use advanced stats til your blue in the face. Fact of the matter is when they had the puck they made something happen. Adcanced stats don't win you games. Scoring does.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Have you compared Toronto's D with ours? Better yet have you compared their forwards with ours?

Here's a hint, Our D is better their Forwards are better.

They made the playoffs and we did not.

The D isn't the only problem, the huge fact that we cant score 5 on 5 is but yeah lets just trade and make a new hole to cover a hole that might have been made from coaching.

You can't say "our D is better" than any team, except maybe Colorado.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Prove me wrong then. You can use advanced stats til your blue in the face. Fact of the matter is when they had the puck they made something happen. Adcanced stats don't win you games. Scoring does.

Is this extremely dumb, or does it just sound extremely dumb?

 

[wunderpanda]

It also has something to do with who drafted him.

It tangentially does. Murray left behind an asset with enough value to have this discussion. He also brought in a pair of better centers after Sam was drafted.

It's because when you draft #2 overall people are shocked that players drafted after SECOND OVERALL are also very good.

They also like to constantly bring up something that they are completely powerless to change. You know who else does that? LOSERS.

If you resort to name calling, you don't have an on topic argument to make.

Why is a potential 55-60 point player not good enough to some around here? Talk about un realistic expectations in the state the NHL is now with scoring lower than ever.

This is why we cant have nice things. Everyone and everything is better than what Buffalo has it seems.

We should just get rid of O'Reilly then.. only put up 55 points.

and everyone on this team who put up under 50 points.. Lets just ship them off for pucks.

No.

It's not that Sam *isn't good enough*. It's the opposite, he is the only asset good enough to return a top 4 defenseman in trade. It's about trading a nice thing for a different nice thing. The OP listed options that shouldn't be insulting.

This isn't a negative anti-Sam thing.

 

[wunderpanda]

Perry didn't have a great season, but that's not the reason he was moved to the third line. Carlyle broke up Perry and Getzlaf to see if he could get Perry going. He put Rakell on the line with Perry to help. If Rakell played well enough to get off the third line, why was he still there? Your first argument doesn't make sense.

Perry was demoted to 3rd line, Rakell was promoted off the 3rd line. Perry is a bad comparison because of his age, neither are pushing to be a center.

Kessel has never been a third line player. The Pens has no defensive oriented lines in their top three. Sullivan created three scoring lines. Cullen's line was the only line which matched up defensively. The idea that Crosby and Malkin eat the tough matchup, leaving Kessel to play against lesser defensive lines, is exactly proving my point.

Okay, I call that a sheltered 3rd line, we have different designations for it. Fully agree on the purpose behind it though.

Jordan Staal was not a defensive center in Pittsburgh. He was a two way center who scored. He was not a grinding shutdown center. He got the toughest matchup, but he wasn't Couturier.

And that's fair, but he was still in that 3rd line role if he was facing the toughest matchups. Sam hasn't shown that ability yet.

Richards playing on a 3rd line didn't change his style. That's part of the problem - numbering lines. Richards plays that was no matter what line he's on.

In all honesty, my comment was more about Richards career winding down by the time he was 3C. His body wore down and he was out of the league 2 seasons later; Sam still doesn't have a similar play style.

Scotty Bowman recommended not numbering lines, just referring to them by the center. That's the right way to go. People attach stigmas to numbers. 3rd line centers need to be Mike Pecas. Except they don't. Igor Lariarnov was a tremendous center, who, by a numbering systems, was the 3rd line center in Detroit. There are plenty of examples of great centers who were not or are not defensive, who play on what could be referred to as a third line.

I've agreed on this for years.
(Larionov was 30 when he entered the NHL)

Larsson, Girgensons, or Rodriguez could all be last center behind Eichel, ROR, and Reinhart. It doesn't take imagination to think of Reinhart at center. He's played there his whole life, and well, until he met Dan Bylsma.

They could be, depending on cap space. Bylsma met Staal too, but I agree with the hopeful intent; that the next coach can re-imagine how the roster is used.

 

[Jim Bob]

It's not that Sam *isn't good enough*. It's the opposite, he is the only asset good enough to return a top 4 defenseman in trade. It's about trading a nice thing for a different nice thing. The OP listed options that shouldn't be insulting.

This isn't a negative anti-Sam thing.

I don't believe that Reinhart is the only trade bait the Sabres have that could return a top 4 D.

Especially given the expansion draft rules.

What nobody here has any real handle on is what potential trades for a top 4 D are out there.

Reinhart is the most valuable trade piece that has a realistic chance of being put on the block. But, unless there was an absolute no brainer deal for a D (something crazy like OEL for Reinhart), then I'd rather wait and see how things look with other, smaller, tweaks on D and a new coach.

 

[OkimLom]

I don't believe that Reinhart is the only trade bait the Sabres have that could return a top 4 D.

Especially given the expansion draft rules.

What nobody here has any real handle on is what potential trades for a top 4 D are out there.

Reinhart is the most valuable trade piece that has a realistic chance of being put on the block. But, unless there was an absolute no brainer deal for a D (something crazy like OEL for Reinhart), then I'd rather wait and see how things look with other, smaller, tweaks on D and a new coach.

This.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Prove me wrong then. You can use advanced stats til your blue in the face. Fact of the matter is when they had the puck they made something happen. Adcanced stats don't win you games. Scoring does.

If factual evidence can't prove you wrong then nothing I can say will be able to do so.

Man for man our forward corps is quite a bit stronger than Toronto with an equally worse defence. Toronto had the advantage of better coaching utilising a better system along with a better front office with a better vision.

If the Sabres had a gm who didn't virtually neglect the blue line & a coach who played a system that suited his players strengths then I reckon we could be up there ahead of Toronto.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

This.

Nobody in their right mind wants to trade him for the sake of trading... But nobody else comes close to having his value either.

Of course you look into every avenue first.. Even if that means trading the likes of 8ov or Nylander. But if the right guy is available for Reinhart and only Reinhart I pull the trigger...

The debate here should be about who is the 'right guy' or even 'right guys'...

 

[Jim Bob]

Nobody in their right mind wants to trade him for the sake of trading... But nobody else comes close to having his value either.

Of course you look into every avenue first.. Even if that means trading the likes of 8ov or Nylander. But if the right guy is available for Reinhart and only Reinhart I pull the trigger...

The debate here should be about who is the 'right guy' or even 'right guys'...

My reply was to a post that said "he is the only asset good enough to return a top 4 defenseman in trade".

Disagree with the statement that the only way the Sabres can add a top 4 D via trade is by giving up Reinhart.

For me, Reinhart might not be untouchable, but he's pretty darn close. And I don't want to see Reinhart get moved for say Tanev.

Even Hanifin for Reinhart isn't a deal that makes me want to pull the trigger.

 

[OkimLom]

If factual evidence can't prove you wrong then nothing I can say will be able to do so.

Man for man our forward corps is quite a bit stronger than Toronto with an equally worse defence. Toronto had the advantage of better coaching utilising a better system along with a better front office with a better vision.

If the Sabres had a gm who didn't virtually neglect the blue line & a coach who played a system that suited his players strengths then I reckon we could be up there ahead of Toronto.

I think you're stretching it with "quite a bit stronger". Plus, we don't have a guy right now that is of Marner's ability. We hope Nylander COULD be that guy.

 

[OkimLom]

Nobody in their right mind wants to trade him for the sake of trading... But nobody else comes close to having his value either.

Of course you look into every avenue first.. Even if that means trading the likes of 8ov or Nylander. But if the right guy is available for Reinhart and only Reinhart I pull the trigger...

The debate here should be about who is the 'right guy' or even 'right guys'...

I'm not trading Reinhart until I have a backup plan player for his role that is on the team. Sure it's great to Trade a Forward for a D because it looks like you're addressing a need with a strength. But for me, it shouldn't be about moving chairs around, it should be about adding pieces, if we're moving Reinhart, then I want a piece like Hanifin and I want a piece coming back that slots into where Reinhart was.

A trade like Reinhart + Borgen for Hanifin + Aho makes me listen.

 

[Aladyyn]

It tangentially does. Murray left behind an asset with enough value to have this discussion. He also brought in a pair of better centers after Sam was drafted.

Yes, this is it. Murray was building the team around the strong center spine, that's why you want to trade Reinhart. You want to cleanse Murray's influence.

It's not that Sam *isn't good enough*. It's the opposite, he is the only asset good enough to return a top 4 defenseman in trade. It's about trading a nice thing for a different nice thing. The OP listed options that shouldn't be insulting.

This isn't a negative anti-Sam thing.

If you trade Reinhart for a "top 4 defenseman" you should be fired on the spot.

 

[Sabre the Win]

Is this extremely dumb, or does it just sound extremely dumb?

You're actually going to argue against "goals win games" go for it because that's what your about to argue against

If factual evidence can't prove you wrong then nothing I can say will be able to do so.

Man for man our forward corps is quite a bit stronger than Toronto with an equally worse defence. Toronto had the advantage of better coaching utilising a better system along with a better front office with a better vision.

If the Sabres had a gm who didn't virtually neglect the blue line & a coach who played a system that suited his players strengths then I reckon we could be up there ahead of Toronto.

So then why do we need to upgrade our defense when we haven't even seen our defense with someone who utlizes a better system?

and its not the blue line thats the problem. I see the glaring fact that we can't score 5 on 5. Thats mostly on the offense, if we could outscore the few blunders that happen from the defense we don't need all these acquisitions on the blue line which is exactly what Toronto did.

What people are proposing is trading one of our best point makers for help on the blue line when its only creating a new hole to patch a previous hole.

essentially its people looking at a scape goat for this miserable season and just blaming it entirely on the defense.

 

[Aladyyn]

Goals win games but goals you scored in the past are not a good indicator of how many goals you're going to score in the future. That's where shot metrics come in.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

You're actually going to argue against "goals win games" go for it because that's what your about to argue against

So then why do we need to upgrade our defense when we haven't even seen our defense with someone who utlizes a better system?

and its not the blue line thats the problem. I see the glaring fact that we can't score 5 on 5. Thats mostly on the offense, if we could outscore the few blunders that happen from the defense we don't need all these acquisitions on the blue line which is exactly what Toronto did.

What people are proposing is trading one of our best point makers for help on the blue line when its only creating a new hole to patch a previous hole.

essentially its people looking at a scape goat for this miserable season and just blaming it entirely on the defense.

You put any semi-decent forward on Eichel's wing and on the top PP and he will be "one of our best point makers". Sam has not shown he can drive offense how he is expected considering his pedigree. Compare his play (not numbers, cause there is no comparison there) to how some of the premier young talent does and you can see easily he doesn't belong truly in that elite league.

Also can people stop using the excuse "he didin't play on his natural position" as if playing Jack's wing and on the top PP in the league is a terrible place to be slotted at in the context of the league. It is becoming a bit of a joke listening to lame excuses.

I don't hate the guy and if the rest of the team was perfect of course he stays and contributes, but I truly think we get better trade value out of him right now, then I think he delivers to the team if he stays on and plays for us. If he has another season like the past 2 where he doesn't show significant improvement again his value will nosedive compared to now, as now I think it is still quite high in the league.

 

[Jim Bob]

You put any semi-decent forward on Eichel's wing and on the top PP and he will be "one of our best point makers". Sam has not shown he can drive offense how he is expected considering his pedigree. Compare his play (not numbers, cause there is no comparison there) to how some of the premier young talent does and you can see easily he doesn't belong truly in that elite league.

Also can people stop using the excuse "he didin't play on his natural position" as if playing Jack's wing and on the top PP in the league is a terrible place to be slotted at in the context of the league. It is becoming a bit of a joke listening to lame excuses.

I don't hate the guy and if the rest of the team was perfect of course he stays and contributes, but I truly think we get better trade value out of him right now, then I think he delivers to the team if he stays on and plays for us. If he has another season like the past 2 where he doesn't show significant improvement again his value will nosedive compared to now, as now I think it is still quite high in the league.

So, you spend the first 2/3s of that post saying that Reinhart isn't an elite young talent and that he doesn't drive offense.

Then you finish it up by saying trade him because he has so much trade value.

Sorry, but if Reinhart isn't an elite young talent and doesn't drive offense, how much trade value does he have?

And if he has a lot of trade value, then wouldn't that mean that he has a ton of untapped potential and the Sabres might want to be patient with him?

 

[OkimLom]

You put any semi-decent forward on Eichel's wing and on the top PP and he will be "one of our best point makers". Sam has not shown he can drive offense how he is expected considering his pedigree. Compare his play (not numbers, cause there is no comparison there) to how some of the premier young talent does and you can see easily he doesn't belong truly in that elite league.

Also can people stop using the excuse "he didin't play on his natural position" as if playing Jack's wing and on the top PP in the league is a terrible place to be slotted at in the context of the league. It is becoming a bit of a joke listening to lame excuses.

I don't hate the guy and if the rest of the team was perfect of course he stays and contributes, but I truly think we get better trade value out of him right now, then I think he delivers to the team if he stays on and plays for us. If he has another season like the past 2 where he doesn't show significant improvement again his value will nosedive compared to now, as now I think it is still quite high in the league.

So you think he's going to regress after this year?

EDIT:

I know you're sick of hearing the "excuses", but it doesn't make them less true. Players who play in an offense killing system, who don't play in positions that best suit their abilities are not going to succeed. When your team doesn't have the puck often because of your horrid system, you're not going to produce offense.

To think Reinhart's value won't improve because of the past coaching staff's impact is comical. It's not even the fact that Reinhart played wing, EVERYTHING about how the team played was horrible and killed any ability of our team to produce offense consistently.

You don't NEED to trade Reinhart at this time.

But let me ask you this, do you believe if we traded Reinhart for say Hanifin, that our team would've improved if we had Bylsma still? What do you think Hanifin's ability would bring to the team? How would this change the way we defend and how would this change improve our team's offense?