Which line would you rather have right now all at peak level?

[pcruz]

I don't think any of these players are "slouch" and all these guys had pretty dominant seasons, but the topic was about being the best player in the world, he's pitted against guys like Crosby, who have been the best players in the world for a decade each, Ovechkin who was the best in the world for 3-4 years, McDavid who has been the best in the world over a 32 YO Crosby, Forsberg was the best player for a 100ish game period over Lemieux, Lindros, Jagr, Hasek...

Being an underrated superstar does not cut it, not when compared to these guys.

Mario played 8 less games than Foppa the year he won the Hart. He had 15 less points.
He was about to retire. The Penguins were brutal. Kovalev had the 2nd most points on that team (64 pts in 54 games), so Mario ended up with 50% more points than him.
At no time would anyone look at those 2 and think "yeah, this Mario guy is great, but get a load of this Peter guy!"

Forsberg won the Art Ross and Hart. He was a fantastic player and fully deserved it.
Tough as nails, excellent offensively and defensively. Likely too physical for his own good.
It's almost like describing Lindros really. Except his peak was nowhere near as high offensively, and he wasn't as feared physically.

 

[pcruz]

Also, I always have a hard time justifying who I would prefer from the Avs.
Where, on that team, do you rank:

Forsberg
Sakic
Roy

And in all honesty, any ranking of those 3 in any order, could be correct.

There is nobody, on any of the Philadelphia teams that comes near the level of Lindros.

 

[Mrb1p]

Mario played 8 less games than Foppa the year he won the Hart. He had 15 less points.
He was about to retire. The Penguins were brutal. Kovalev had the 2nd most points on that team (64 pts in 54 games), so Mario ended up with 50% more points than him.
At no time would anyone look at those 2 and think "yeah, this Mario guy is great, but get a load of this Peter guy!"

Forsberg won the Art Ross and Hart. He was a fantastic player and fully deserved it.
Tough as nails, excellent offensively and defensively. Likely too physical for his own good.
It's almost like describing Lindros really. Except his peak was nowhere near as high offensively, and he wasn't as feared physically.

Youre right, wrong period lol, Forsberg was in 02-04 where he was 1.45 ppg

 

[pcruz]

Youre right, wrong period lol, Forsberg was in 02-04 where he was 1.45 ppg

55 points in 39 games is pretty phenomenal, not gonna lie.

Sakic, Hejduk and Tanguay were all good, but Foppa was clearly better than all of those guys that year (03-04).

His career is yet another "what if". And it's really sad that we never got to fully appreciate it the same way we were allowed to appreciate all of Jagr's career.

He would have ended his career 2nd in goals, 1st in assists, 1st in points, 1st in playoff points, of all Swedish players.

 

[Fatass]

Line four has Power forward finisher extraordinaries, defensive wizard with fabulous skills, and an elite play maker who drives play like few others.

 

[Video Nasty]

You know, with the caveat of peak and assumed full health, I actually find it really hard to go against Stamkos-Crosby-Malkin.

Guess people forgot how good Stamkos was. The point made about Malkin winning the Hart in dominant fashion is valid, but that 60 goal year wins the Hart more often than not.

Good poll. Each line is very compelling and it’s really hard to pick against any of them, particularly Forsberg-Sakic-Jagr.

 

[shaner82]

I said line 5 but I think line 4 is a sneaky underrated one. I feel like people have forgotten Ovie’s peak due to his longevity and Datsyuk’s due to it being a while ago and him having moved on, but that line and the particular combination of Ovie’s peak physicality, puck rushing and shot with Dats’ playmaking, sneaky shot, magic hands and two way play and Kane’s ability to dazzle would be pretty lethal. All in their peak, that’s an insane line.

Still, couldn’t pass on Jagr and Forsberg dominating possession all game long with Sakic ripping pucks home.

Ovi wasn't a constant forechecker though. It was more of an occasional thing through a game. When he did decide to forecheck, he did go very hard, but it wasn't every shift by any means. Ovi is a bit of a floater, always has been. Kane is too. I don't think that line would be able to effectively defend or retrieve the puck against a line like #5

 

[Video Nasty]

Mario played 8 less games than Foppa the year he won the Hart. He had 15 less points.
He was about to retire. The Penguins were brutal. Kovalev had the 2nd most points on that team (64 pts in 54 games), so Mario ended up with 50% more points than him.
At no time would anyone look at those 2 and think "yeah, this Mario guy is great, but get a load of this Peter guy!"

Forsberg won the Art Ross and Hart. He was a fantastic player and fully deserved it.
Tough as nails, excellent offensively and defensively. Likely too physical for his own good.
It's almost like describing Lindros really. Except his peak was nowhere near as high offensively, and he wasn't as feared physically.

To add on additional context, Mario led the league in scoring by a sizable margin (15 or so points) in the first half.

And it took Forsberg until the final day of the season to complete the comeback and win the Art Ross over Naslund.

Amazing season for Forsberg and the chemistry he had with that line, I remember it well, felt like every night they were a 10 point threat.

I also remember continuing to marvel at Mario’s play in the first half and wondered how in the world he was still the best player at his age and with his history and not yet realizing at the time that other than Gretzky, no player in the past 40+ years has been close to him.

 

[authentic]

Mario played 8 less games than Foppa the year he won the Hart. He had 15 less points.
He was about to retire. The Penguins were brutal. Kovalev had the 2nd most points on that team (64 pts in 54 games), so Mario ended up with 50% more points than him.
At no time would anyone look at those 2 and think "yeah, this Mario guy is great, but get a load of this Peter guy!"

Forsberg won the Art Ross and Hart. He was a fantastic player and fully deserved it.
Tough as nails, excellent offensively and defensively. Likely too physical for his own good.
It's almost like describing Lindros really. Except his peak was nowhere near as high offensively, and he wasn't as feared physically.

Forsberg was easily the better player at that point, let's not kid ourselves. Even in Lemieux's comeback season where he had 76 points in 43 games he had under a point per game in the playoffs and was the definition of a purely offensive player. 2002-05 Forsberg blows post 2000 Lemieux out of the water in a head to head matchup which is perfectly fine for Lemieux considering he was 35+.

 

[pcruz]

Forsberg was easily the better player at that point, let's not kid ourselves. Even in Lemieux's comeback season where he had 76 points in 43 games he had under a point per game in the playoffs and was the definition of a purely offensive player. 2002-05 Forsberg blows post 2000 Lemieux out of the water in a head to head matchup which is perfectly fine for Lemieux considering he was 35+.

Ummm

Mario comes out of 3 year retirement.
Scores 35 goals, 41 assists in 43 games.
5th in team scoring (with Jagr putting up 120 pts), despite playing 43 games.
2nd team All Star
Age: 35

Followed by:

6 goals, 25 assists in 24 games
5th in team scoring, despite playing 24 games!!
Age: 36

Followed by:

28 goals, 63 assists in 67 games
Leads team in scoring by 50% (over Kovalev at 64 pts in only 54 games)
Age: 37

Compared to:

27 goals, 62 assists in 73 games
2nd in team scoring (Sakic 118 pts in 82 games)
Age: 27


29 goals, 77 assists in 75 games
leads team by 8 points
Age: 29


18 goals, 37 assists in 39 games
4th in team scoring
Age: 30


I think that "blows Mario out of the water" isn't just hyperbole, it's downright wrong.

 

[authentic]

Ummm

Mario comes out of 3 year retirement.
Scores 35 goals, 41 assists in 43 games.
5th in team scoring (with Jagr putting up 120 pts), despite playing 43 games.
2nd team All Star
Age: 35

Followed by:

6 goals, 25 assists in 24 games
5th in team scoring, despite playing 24 games!!
Age: 36

Followed by:

28 goals, 63 assists in 67 games
Leads team in scoring by 50% (over Kovalev at 64 pts in only 54 games)
Age: 37

Compared to:

27 goals, 62 assists in 73 games
2nd in team scoring (Sakic 118 pts in 82 games)
Age: 27


29 goals, 77 assists in 75 games
leads team by 8 points
Age: 29


18 goals, 37 assists in 39 games
4th in team scoring
Age: 30


I think that "blows Mario out of the water" isn't just hyperbole, it's downright wrong.

Yet, Lemieux had 17 points in 18 playoff games and Jagr had more points during his comeback in 2000-01, and over half of Lemieux points were on the powerplay after his comeback, and he was as close to a 1-way player as it gets at even strength... like I said, 2002-05 Forsberg, destroys Lemieux in a head to head matchup, and brings more value to a team at that point, you included his 2001 season which I agree Lemieux got the edge for, but nothing I said is downright wrong. Peak Forsberg is a better hockey player than 35+ Lemieux, which is just a plain fact. 78 points in 47 games in 2002-03, with elite defensive and physical play and the best playoff player beats a player who scores half his points on the powerplay, and does nothing close to dominance on defense or in the playoffs.

 

[pcruz]

Yet, Lemieux had 17 points in 18 playoff games and Jagr had more points during his comeback in 2000-01, and over half of Lemieux points were on the powerplay after his comeback, and he was as close to a 1-way player as it gets at even strength... like I said, 2002-05 Forsberg, destroys Lemieux in a head to head matchup, and brings more value to a team at that point, you included his 2001 season which I agree Lemieux got the edge for, but nothing I said is downright wrong. Peak Forsberg is a better hockey player than 35+ Lemieux, which is just a plain fact. 78 points in 47 games in 2002-03, with elite defensive and physical play and the best playoff player beats a player who scores half his points on the powerplay, and does nothing close to dominance on defense or in the playoffs.

Of course I included Foppa's 2001 season. He played 114 total games in the "2002-2005" window you mentioned.

Honestly, if Peter Forsberg's absolute peak wasn't better than Mario's post-retirement career, then he shouldn't ever be mentioned in any "best players" list....ever.

A player at the peak of his game, on a Stanley Cup winning team, with Sakic and Hejduk and Tanguay, Patrick Roy vs a 35-38 year old, cancer survivor, back surgeries, on a team with 1 year of Jagr, Kovalev.

 

[authentic]

Of course I included Foppa's 2001 season. He played 114 total games in the "2002-2005" window you mentioned.

Honestly, if Peter Forsberg's absolute peak wasn't better than Mario's post-retirement career, then he shouldn't ever be mentioned in any "best players" list....ever.

A player at the peak of his game, on a Stanley Cup winning team, with Sakic and Hejduk and Tanguay, Patrick Roy vs a 35-38 year old, cancer survivor, back surgeries, on a team with 1 year of Jagr, Kovalev.

Lol okay, so you agree with me then. It's okay dude, I wasn't saying peak Forsberg > peak Lemieux.

 

[pcruz]

Lol okay, so you agree with me then. It's okay dude, I wasn't saying peak Forsberg > peak Lemieux.

No, but peak Forsberg is better, not significantly, than post retirement and come back Mario.

That is not anything close to blow out of the water.

Just offensively, they are relatively similar, while one has a Cup contending team and the other has a lottery team.

 

[b in vancouver]

They're all amazing.

I voted #3 because it was the one I instinctively wanted to watch play together the most. Just had a tough time even thinking how you would try to match up against those three.

 

[Fataldogg]

And then some guy, Sakic, centering them.

Yeah, I'm not dismissing him. He is an all time great. But when I think of Forsberg and Jagr, I vividly remember how dominant both were in terms of puck control. They would consistently wear down defense, and the puck would be pinned in the oppositions end.

For Sakic what I remember most was his incredible wrist shot and vision on the ice.

Forsberg-Sakic-Jagr would be the most dominant line listed in my opinion.

 

[Fataldogg]

This isn't a fair poll considering no one of Mackinnon-Matthews-Mcdavid have reached their peaks. Give it a few years and a lot of posters would vote for the triple M.

This may be Matthews peak goal scoring season. This might be McDavids peak point per game season. We don't know. Next year they both might do better, or they might do worse which is reasonable to assume given how high their level of play is this season. We have to consider this is their peak for now.

 

[pcruz]

One more tick for that Lindros line.

Only line listed with a defenseman on it.

 

[authentic]

This may be Matthews peak goal scoring season. This might be McDavids peak point per game season. We don't know. Next year they both might do better, or they might do worse which is reasonable to assume given how high their level of play is this season. We have to consider this is their peak for now.

I think it would be almost unreasonable to expect them to get much better than this. I think they still could but even maintaining this level of play for a few more seasons would be tough enough.

 

[authentic]

No, but peak Forsberg is better, not significantly, than post retirement and come back Mario.

That is not anything close to blow out of the water.

Just offensively, they are relatively similar, while one has a Cup contending team and the other has a lottery team.

Fair enough.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Yeah, I'm not dismissing him. He is an all time great. But when I think of Forsberg and Jagr, I vividly remember how dominant both were in terms of puck control. They would consistently wear down defense, and the puck would be pinned in the oppositions end.

For Sakic what I remember most was his incredible wrist shot and vision on the ice.

Forsberg-Sakic-Jagr would be the most dominant line listed in my opinion.

They were unstoppable, yeah

 

[pcruz]

Fair enough.

You won't hear me downplay Foppa though, I think it's a damn shame we never got to watch more of him.
Missing a season in the peak of your career and then also missing so much of the best years really sucks.

He absolutely deserves to be in this list of players, and it really could be down to personal preference for 4 of them as to which would be best.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

You think Fedorov was the best player in the world in 93-94?


Thats assuming Lemieux stopped existing ?Thats right in Lemieux peak, Fedorov only got the trophies because Lemieux got injured, I don't think anyone would kid themselves into thinking Feds was the best player in the world, same way no one thought Jamie Benn was the best player in the world either.

And if you want to discount Lemieux, I mean, he's the anomalies of anomalies in that time frame... Theres a guy named Lindros that was outpacing Fedorov and who who the hart pearson the year just after and got AS-1, AS-2.

Fedorovs hart season is great, but its not a "hes the best in the league" season, its a Carey Price perfect storm season.

Lindros was “outpacing” him by a whole two points, with a smaller sample size that likely would have dropped off and fallen short of Fedorov’s totals. Even if it did not, Fedorov was the best defensive player in the world that year, and had a big edge over Lindros in that department. He was quite easily the better player that year. Fedorov was the best player in the world that year, Lemieux had his injuries and was battling cancer and couldn’t tie his own skates etc, but playing less than 20 games and playing some very poor defense that year did not compare to what Fedorov did.

 

[Mrb1p]

Lindros was “outpacing” him by a whole two points, with a smaller sample size that likely would have dropped off and fallen short of Fedorov’s totals. Even if it did not, Fedorov was the best defensive player in the world that year, and had a big edge over Lindros in that department. He was quite easily the better player that year. Fedorov was the best player in the world that year, Lemieux had his injuries and was battling cancer and couldn’t tie his own skates etc, but playing less than 20 games and playing some very poor defense that year did not compare to what Fedorov did.

And yet Lemieux won hart trophies the year before and the hear after come on man, no one thought that.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I don't think any of these players are "slouch" and all these guys had pretty dominant seasons, but the topic was about being the best player in the world, he's pitted against guys like Crosby, who have been the best players in the world for a decade each, Ovechkin who was the best in the world for 3-4 years, McDavid who has been the best in the world over a 32 YO Crosby, Forsberg was the best player for a 100ish game period over Lemieux, Lindros, Jagr, Hasek...

Being an underrated superstar does not cut it, not when compared to these guys.

Forsberg was a guy who was never the best player in the world. Jagr was better before Forsberg’s one outlier year, and after. Just because he was stuck on a team/coach that didn’t let him play his game that season, doesn’t mean that suddenly the 5x Art Ross winner was worse than Forsberg. To put it in perspective, Forsberg even at his peak couldn’t win the Pearson trophy over Markus Naslund.