Where would you rather finish at the end of the regular season?

[DAChampion]

So we don't have elite talent on the team according to you.

Right now there are zero elite performers.

Brenden Gallagher is a top-100 forward, he is likely the only top-100 forward on the team.
Jesperi Kotkaniemi might become a top-30 forward, we'll see.
Shea Weber is plausibly a top-30 dman, but he's on his way down.

That's not enough.

Compare to Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Carlson, ... no comparison actually lol.

 

[Habs Icing]

Right now there are zero elite performers.

Brenden Gallagher is a top-100 forward, he is likely the only top-100 forward on the team.
Jesperi Kotkaniemi might become a top-30 forward, we'll see.
Shea Weber is plausibly a top-30 dman, but he's on his way down.

That's not enough.

Compare to Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Carlson, ... no comparison actually lol.

I don't agree but it is your opinion. It is what it is.

 

[Kriss E]

Why are you talking like if the 1st choice in 2020 will be ours (even if we tank, it is unlikely)? (Lafreniere)

I was responding to a post that hypothetically discussed us landing Lafreniere.

 

[Kriss E]

And you talk to me about speculative. The numerous steps I laid out are closer to happening than that one simple step in your plan.

You missed the entire point. Nothing you laid out is close to happening as there would be countless of other moves done.
Ya, if we tanked but missed on Hughes, we'd still get a top 10 pick. That's talent coming our way, unless we screw up but we wouldn't know that until quite a number of years later. So at the moment of the draft, we'd be getting talent. That improves us. Or we can use that top pick for a trade. Or or or. There are a huge number of speculative moves we could do, all of which would be as plausible as the next.

You are happy with where we are today and don't want to tank. Fine. It is understood that moving forward, things will still be done in an attempt to improve the team. Why would it be any different if we tanked? So if we tank, we are just going to keep sucking perpetually until we draft a superstar?
And again, you completely avoided the point that in your own example of missing out on Hughes (still getting top 10 talent), and landing Lafreniere, we would be in trouble because Weber and Price would suck soon after, but I would argue having Kotka, Lefreniere, top 10 pick, on top of all the young guys you listed as excited to have today, would be more than enough to compensate the decrease in Price and Weber, not to mention, we could make trades and have way more assets to dangle in front of willing partners.

And yes, I said you were speculative and mentioned how I could do the same, to show how pointless of an exercise this is. This was in no way shape or form, a plan.
My plan would be to trade Price and Weber right now, move Byron, move Tatar, load up on picks and prospects. We aren't going to win anything with the current foundation, not even contend. You're being fooled by a mirage right now.
If all you care about is seeing some entertaining hockey, then by all means, enjoy the games, but that has nothing to do with what I am discussing, ie become a legit contender.

 

[DAChampion]

I don't agree but it is your opinion. It is what it is.

Who in the Habs system, other than Kotkaniemi, has the potential to be a top-30 forward in the NHL?

 

[Habs Icing]

Who in the Habs system, other than Kotkaniemi, has the potential to be a top-30 forward in the NHL?

Price is an elite goalie, Weber an elite d-man, Suzki, Brook. That's five with Kotkaniemi.

 

[Habs Icing]

You missed the entire point. Nothing you laid out is close to happening as there would be countless of other moves done.
Ya, if we tanked but missed on Hughes, we'd still get a top 10 pick. That's talent coming our way, unless we screw up but we wouldn't know that until quite a number of years later. So at the moment of the draft, we'd be getting talent. That improves us. Or we can use that top pick for a trade. Or or or. There are a huge number of speculative moves we could do, all of which would be as plausible as the next.

You are happy with where we are today and don't want to tank. Fine. It is understood that moving forward, things will still be done in an attempt to improve the team. Why would it be any different if we tanked? So if we tank, we are just going to keep sucking perpetually until we draft a superstar?
And again, you completely avoided the point that in your own example of missing out on Hughes (still getting top 10 talent), and landing Lafreniere, we would be in trouble because Weber and Price would suck soon after, but I would argue having Kotka, Lefreniere, top 10 pick, on top of all the young guys you listed as excited to have today, would be more than enough to compensate the decrease in Price and Weber, not to mention, we could make trades and have way more assets to dangle in front of willing partners.

And yes, I said you were speculative and mentioned how I could do the same, to show how pointless of an exercise this is. This was in no way shape or form, a plan.
My plan would be to trade Price and Weber right now, move Byron, move Tatar, load up on picks and prospects. We aren't going to win anything with the current foundation, not even contend. You're being fooled by a mirage right now.
If all you care about is seeing some entertaining hockey, then by all means, enjoy the games, but that has nothing to do with what I am discussing, ie become a legit contender.

You're going to move Price, Weber, Byron, Tatar with the hope of maybe getting comparable players in the future.

Your plan is more risky than mine. We have those players now. We need to build quickly around them. And it can be done. Last year at this time how many top line centers did we have on the team or in our prospect pool? None. Today we may have three: Kotkaniemi, Suzuki, Domi.

 

[Perrah]

Price is an elite goalie, Weber an elite d-man, Suzki, Brook. That's five with Kotkaniemi.

You said in 4 years Price and Weber will be past their due date, yet you use Suzuki and Brook as elite players for the habs going forward? Is their ascension to elite instantaneous next year? Will they need 2 years to be NHL hardened like you said Hughes or Lafreniere would need as much more highly touted prospects?

 

[DAChampion]

Price is an elite goalie

Suzki, Brook. That's five with Kotkaniemi.

Suzuki and Brook both have decent chances to be good players at the NHL level.

When I said "top-30 forwards" (and implied equivalent in dmen) I meant guys like Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Kane, Toews, Carter, Kopitar, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov; or for dmen, Carlson, Letang, Doughty, or prime Duncan Keith.

If, as you're suggesting, Josh Brook becomes John Carlson, Nick Suzuki becomes Phil Kessel, and Kotkaniemi becomes Kopitar ... that will be a bloody miracle.

 

[Habs Icing]

You said in 4 years Price and Weber will be past their due date, yet you use Suzuki and Brook as elite players for the habs going forward? Is their ascension to elite instantaneous next year? Will they need 2 years to be NHL hardened like you said Hughes or Lafreniere would need as much more highly touted prospects?

Why don't you do the math. Suzuki and Brook are already at draft + 1 year. Lafreniere is at draft - 2 year. And as for Hughes you're assuming you are gonna make a wish (we're gonna tank) and puff you get an elite player. So with Lafreniere and Hughes they are not only two and one year away from drafting but you don't have them and you gotta pray to the hockey gods to smile on you. So basically you and Kriss are making plans with players that are not in your system and the odds of getting them are slim and pretty close to none.

 

[Miller Time]

I get your point that sustained failure isn't a recipe for success. If the Habs end up around the bubble, I'll console myself with the thought that our existing young players are good enough to win games. That's a good base on which to build a contender, but it doesn't become an actual contender without adding top tier talent. And it's not a function of simply grabbing top picks -- they have to be the right picks in the right year.

Habs have had three picks between #3 and #9 in the last six years, which became Galchenyuk, Sergachev and Kotkaniemi. Switch the years and there were other players available in that same range, including Marner, Draisaitl, Dubois, Nylander, Horvat. Had we sucked the same but in different seasons, three of those players might've been Habs, which might've changed the team's fortunes drastically.

Don't know that any of the players you listed were better prospects than Galch at the time of their respective drafts...

 

[Habs Icing]

View attachment 149101


Suzuki and Brook both have decent chances to be good players at the NHL level.

When I said "top-30 forwards" (and implied equivalent in dmen) I meant guys like Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Kane, Toews, Carter, Kopitar, Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov; or for dmen, Carlson, Letang, Doughty, or prime Duncan Keith.

If, as you're suggesting, Josh Brook becomes John Carlson, Nick Suzuki becomes Phil Kessel, and Kotkaniemi becomes Kopitar ... that will be a bloody miracle.

As I said earlier you got an opinion. I got a different one.

 

[montreal]

So we don't have elite talent on the team according to you.

When was the last time the Habs had a player with over 70 points? Last year 33 players had over 70 points, our best scorer was tied for 94th in the league in scoring with 54 pts. So unless Tatar, Gallagher and Byron all have the best seasons they ever had by far, where are the 70+ point players on our team?

 

[Lebowski]

Going for it with our current nucleus of young players would be oddly similar to the 2012 roster Bergevin took over, except it's worse in almost every regard.

 

[BrendanGallagher11]

I love watching this habs hockey its obvious we are rolling right now forwards and d using fast hockey and giving 100% effort

But we need to keep rebuilding

Once this team hits its long road trips its gonna be ugly


We need another good draft to have a real shot at being a contender in 3 yrs

 

[Habs Icing]

When was the last time the Habs had a player with over 70 points? Last year 33 players had over 70 points, our best scorer was tied for 94th in the league in scoring with 54 pts. So unless Tatar, Gallagher and Byron all have the best seasons they ever had by far, where are the 70+ point players on our team?

He said elite talent. I didn't know talent only referred to forwards. And I indirectly answered your implied question in post 921.

Look, you guys think tanking for X number of years will make you into contenders. Go ahead and continue thinking that. I don't want to dissuade you but don't freaking come posting that nonsense here expecting no push back from the few of us who think you're dead wrong.

 

[montreal]

He said elite talent. I didn't know talent only referred to forwards.

Look, you guys think tanking for X number of years will make you into contenders. Go ahead and continue thinking that. I don't want to dissuade you but don't freaking come posting that nonsense here expecting no push back from the few of us who think you're dead wrong.

you don't win hockey games if you don't score and in order to consistently score you need guys that can put up a ton of points. So having a great goalie is huge, as long as he's not ranked 40 something out of 50 goalies in gaa.

As for tanking, I have said over and over and over that there is NO do this and you are a contender. Getting a top 2 pick imo is step one in a long line of moves. All I know is that what we have done for 25 years hasn't even gotten us past a conference final. So there's nothing wrong with wanting to try something different. I have never once said that others have to agree.

But at the end of the day who cares? It's just words, nothing we say matters. You want one thing, others want another, but so what? We aren't in charge, we don't make decisions. The Habs tanked last year because they sucked and management made poor decisions. The Habs have been going nowhere for 25 years and counting, nothing we say on this board is going to change anything. This place is here to discussion opinions, everyone is free to voice their own opinion on what the Habs should or shouldn't be doing but at the end of the day it means nothing in relation to what happens to the Habs. They will win and lose games, just a question of how many and what moves they make to fix this team so it can finally win a cup again.

 

[Habs Icing]

Going for it with our current nucleus of young players would be oddly similar to the 2012 roster Bergevin took over, except it's worse in almost every regard.

Really? Yeah our center position right now is worse than that 2012 team and it's prospect pool.

 

[groovejuice]

Price is an elite goalie, Weber an elite d-man, Suzki, Brook. That's five with Kotkaniemi.

It's arguable whether Price and Weber are currently elite. Those other players are not, and may never be. It's your fantasy, and it's a good one, but there's absolutely no guarantees.

 

[scrubadam]

Once we change out Alzner/Benn/Ouellete for Weber/Mete/Schelmko the D is going to improve drastically. If Carey can keep up his play bottom 5 finish is not likely.

The team may still struggle to score goals, but might not be enough to push them to the bottom.

 

[Habs Icing]

you don't win hockey games if you don't score and in order to consistently score you need guys that can put up a ton of points. So having a great goalie is huge, as long as he's not ranked 40 something out of 50 goalies in gaa.

As for tanking, I have said over and over and over that there is NO do this and you are a contender. Getting a top 2 pick imo is step one in a long line of moves. All I know is that what we have done for 25 years hasn't even gotten us past a conference final. So there's nothing wrong with wanting to try something different. I have never once said that others have to agree.

But at the end of the day who cares? It's just words, nothing we say matters. You want one thing, others want another, but so what? We aren't in charge, we don't make decisions. The Habs tanked last year because they sucked and management made poor decisions. The Habs have been going nowhere for 25 years and counting, nothing we say on this board is going to change anything. This place is here to discussion opinions, everyone is free to voice their own opinion on what the Habs should or shouldn't be doing but at the end of the day it means nothing in relation to what happens to the Habs. They will win and lose games, just a question of how many and what moves they make to fix this team so it can finally win a cup again.

I see this fixation with a lot of posters. It's all about top draft picks. I'm telling you it's the draft picks, trading, signing UFAs, scouting, development and coaching. I keep making this point but no one responds to it. Last year at this time how many top 2 centers did we have on the team or in our prospect pool? Answer none. Today we may have 3: Kotkaniemi, Domi and Suzuki. Last April we had JJD, Lefebvre and Lacroix. Today we have Richardson, Ducharme and Bouchard. We unloaded a slug like Patches for a virtual goldmine. Think about it. An idiot like MB made such drastic and sweeping improvements We don't need to tank..

 

[Habs Icing]

It's arguable whether Price and Weber are currently elite. Those other players are not, and may never be. It's your fantasy, and it's a good one, but there's absolutely no guarantees.

There are even less guarantees in the pipedreams being peddled in this forum. Yeah let's continue tanking. My freaking blood boils when I hear myself repeating that sentence. It's a loser's mantra.

 

[DAChampion]

There are even less guarantees in the pipedreams being peddled in this forum. Yeah let's continue tanking. My freaking blood boils when I hear myself repeating that sentence. It's a loser's mantra.

No, the loser mentality is that of seeking the instant gratification of "making the playoffs", rather than being willing to make the investment to build a true contender.

Within the real world, you have to lose before you can win. Winners know this. For example, people who start their own businesses typically take pay cuts in the first year or two.

 

[Lebowski]

Really? Yeah our center position right now is worse than that 2012 team and it's prospect pool.

Key word being "almost".

And this team doesn't have a center as polished as Plekanec was back then, on top of DD coming off a 50+ points season and Eller being a promising young up and coming center. And Galchenyuk at that point was one of the best center prospect in the game.

We have volume in terms of center depth right now, remains to be seen if there's enough quality there to turn this into a winning team. I don't like our odds enough to risk it as of right now. We need more talent. Just like we needed more talent in 2012.

 

[Lebowski]

There are even less guarantees in the pipedreams being peddled in this forum. Yeah let's continue tanking. My freaking blood boils when I hear myself repeating that sentence. It's a loser's mantra.

You'd think most people would have come to understand that you need to endure a little pain in order to sustain any sort of meaningful success in the modern NHL.

If the goal is to be mediocre for another 25 years, then, by all means, let's go all in with our group.