Where does Ovie now rank all time?

[Zuluss]

Nice job. Ovechkin is now in a free fall below Maurice Richard who has 6 playoff OT goals, Joe Sakic who has 8:

Maurice Richard Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Joe Sakic Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Countless players down to Pete Babando who have 1.

Ovechkin has 0 OT playoff goals:
Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

How many players have assists on playoff OT goals?

Very funny. Mario Lemieux has 0 playoff OTG, Nick Backstrom has 4. A useful career stat indeed.

 

[Zuluss]

Maybe. But also maybe not as good as Crosby’s 2008 and 2009, and he only outscored 2018 playoff Crosby by 6 points in 12 extra games, so let’s not overstate the relevance of 27 points in 24 games against teams that allowed ~236 GA.

I am not sure about 07/08. 6g+21a vs 15g+12a - the latter stat line seems superior
Granted, Crosby achieved his totals in 4 games less, but 9 goals is a big difference.
08/09 is close - Crosby has 4 extra assists in the same number of games (15g+16a vs 15g+12a), but one thing that leaves a bad taste about his totals that year is that half of his points came against WSH (with suspect defense and a rookie goalie) and he was shut down in the finals (1g+2a in 7 games vs. 3g+2a in 5 games for Ovechkin this year).
It is a shame 2007-2010 OV did not have a team around him to make a deep run and now we can only guess what it could have been.

 

[daver]

"Leading" is part of the non-sensical "intangibles" that people use to rank Toews over Malkin.
Ovechkin's Conn Smythe run was better than any of Crosby's Conn Smythe runs.
Crosby was just fortunate to play on better/luckier teams.

Peak and historical significance are in Ovechkin's favor, prime is a wash at best, and may even be in Ovechkin's favor if you value goals enough.

Crosby's case is ppg and team awards, and it has been this way for a decade. Both ppg and team awards are horrible ways of comparing players.

That's debatable. Crosby's run last year was just as strong and his 2009 is clearly better.

You cannot deny that Crosby clearly influenced his team's success and "luck" with superior playoff performances as evidenced by his high end point totals and a PPG that is 20% higher than OV's.

 

[daver]

Lemieux is an obvious outlier but Crosby > any other competition Jagr had. Malkin, who I'm guessing you forgot, is also better than Lindros, Thornton, etc.

I like how Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg are in the "etc." category.

Jagr's best seasons > OV's best seasons (not by much though)
Jagr's longevity > OV's longevity (not a huge factor but worth mentioning)
OV's playoff legacy >= Jagr's playoff legacy

I don't see the first one changing but OV has a chance to add more solid regular seasons to his resume which can close that gap. I really think this is Sakic/Yzerman or Bourque/Lidstrom close.

 

[Sentinel]

I'm not saying I prefer any one thing to another; I'm just saying that trophy-counting NEVER tells us the whole story, despite your best attempt (above). Jagr's competition for Hart trophies was Mario Lemieux, prime Lindros, and Joe Thornton in 2006. Ovechkin's was frequently-injured Crosby. I would venture to suggest that Jagr's and Ovechkin's Hart trophy-'countings' would be in Jagr's favor if the situations were reversed. (Anyway, Jagr might have won the Hart in 1995. He probably should have won it in 2006.)

1. Leave the "might have won" and "should have won" comments for the Crosby fans.

2. Lemieux was Jagr's competition ONCE, in 1996, when they were teammates. Other than that, his competition were Fedorov, Thornton, Pronger, Sakic, and Hasek. Crosby ranks higher than all of them on the all-time scale, except Hasek, and Crosby would lose to Hasek too. The fact remains: 1 Hart for Jagr, 3 for Ovechkin. You can twist it any which way you want. We can even call Ovy's third Hart "weak" (on par with Jagr's 95 loss?), but Ovy still was deemed League's MVP more times than Jagr.

Which generational talent was Jagr playing with in 1995, 1997-2001, and 2006?

Lemieux in 2001. Which generational talent did Ovechkin EVER play with? None.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Keep in mind that the post I was replying to used Jagr's "team success" as a point in his favor.

Yeah I wasn't responding to you in particular, but maybe it looked that way in context.

 

[Sentinel]

Information is not knowledge, knowledge alone is not wisdom.

If you authored this, sir, hats off to you. This is marble-worthy.

That said, writers always exaggerate, hyperbolize, make assumptions and assertions. Tretiak was given the MVP of the Soviet League a stunning FIVE times and was routinely called "The Best Goalie of All Times" by journalists, but I don't see people here ranking him in the Top 3 goalies (I do, but I'm in glaring minority). Fetisov was referred to by journalists as "The best defenseman since Orr," and again, people here don't seem to share that viewpoint. Writers' opinions should contribute to the overall evaluation of players but not be the main one.

TBH I don't see the case for Morenz over Ovechkin. They both won the Hart three times. Morenz lead the league in goals ONCE. Ovechkin (in a much bigger league) -- SEVEN times.

 

[Sentinel]

That's debatable. Crosby's run last year was just as strong and his 2009 is clearly better.

You cannot deny that Crosby clearly influenced his team's success and "luck" with superior playoff performances as evidenced by his high end point totals and a PPG that is 20% higher than OV's.

In vacuum ("vacuum" being defined as "no Malkin"), Crosby's 2009 run is far superior to Ovechkin's 2018. In reality, Ovechkin's 2009 run is not that far behind Crosby's 2009. But 09 Ovechkin was, in fact, in vacuum (i.e. "no Malkin"). It would be interesting to see if Zetterberg could shut him down the way he shut down Crosby. I strongly suspect in a series against Capitals the Wings successfully repeat as champions.

 

[daver]

1. Leave the "might have won" and "should have won" comments for the Crosby fans.

2. Lemieux was Jagr's competition ONCE, in 1996, when they were teammates. Other than that, his competition were Fedorov, Thornton, Pronger, Sakic, and Hasek. Crosby ranks higher than all of them on the all-time scale, except Hasek, and Crosby would lose to Hasek too. The fact remains: 1 Hart for Jagr, 3 for Ovechkin. You can twist it any which way you want. We can even call Ovy's third Hart "weak" (on par with Jagr's 95 loss?), but Ovy still was deemed League's MVP more times than Jagr.


Lemieux in 2001. Which generational talent did Ovechkin EVER play with? None.

So you acknowledge that OV's main competition would also lose to Hasek while at the time pointing out how impressive OV's Harts were given how he beat Crosby head to head.

Sounds like you want your cake and eat it too.

And aren't you the one who wants to ignore OV's 23rd place in Hart voting in 13/14 despite winning the Rocket? Funny how applying context to Hart finishes only goes one way.

 

[Sentinel]

I like how Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg are in the "etc." category.

Jagr's best seasons > OV's best seasons (not by much though)

If at all. Jagr's 1998-99 was great, and people referred to it as such, but on the heals of 20 seasons of total offensive domination from Gretzky, Lemieux, etc. it did not feel all that special. Ovechkin's 2007-08 was regarded with shock and awe, because people could not believe scoring 65 goals was possible any more.

Jagr's longevity > OV's longevity (not a huge factor but worth mentioning)

Well, yeah...

 

[Sentinel]

So you acknowledge that OV's main competition would also lose to Hasek while at the time pointing out how impressive OV's Harts were given how he beat Crosby head to head.

Actually, I always stated that the 90s Harts were better than post-lockout Harts, and that the only 90s Hart either Crosby, Ovechkin, or Malkin would snatch was the 95 Lindros... and that would be 08 Ovechkin. I also happen to think 08 Ovy is a tad better than 99 Jagr, but that's highly subjective and lies more with the sentiments at the time (see my other post).

Sure, Ovechkin is practically guaranteed to lose to 94 Fedorov, 96 Lemieux, 97 and 98 Hasek, and 01 Sakic. I don't see how this invalidates what I said.

And aren't you the one who wants to ignore OV's 23rd place in Hart voting in 13/14 despite winning the Rocket? Funny how applying context to Hart finishes only goes one way.

Uhm... it shows that even on a bad season Ovy was a goal-scoring machine unseen since Hull Sr. Nobody holds Gretzky's Art Ross-winning 1993-94 season against him, despite him not getting a single Hart vote. It just proves the man was insanely consistent point producer from another galaxy.

 

[daver]

In vacuum ("vacuum" being defined as "no Malkin"), Crosby's 2009 run is far superior to Ovechkin's 2018. In reality, Ovechkin's 2009 run is not that far behind Crosby's 2009. But 09 Ovechkin was, in fact, in vacuum (i.e. "no Malkin"). It would be interesting to see if Zetterberg could shut him down the way he shut down Crosby. I strongly suspect in a series against Capitals the Wings successfully repeat as champions.

In reality, Crosby's 2018 run is superior to OV's 2018 run.

 

[daver]

If at all. Jagr's 1998-99 was great, and people referred to it as such, but on the heals of 20 seasons of total offensive domination from Gretzky, Lemieux, etc. it did not feel all that special. Ovechkin's 2007-08 was regarded with shock and awe, because people could not believe scoring 65 goals was possible any more.

What does this have to do with an objective rating of each season?

Anyways, Stamkos scoring 60 in 11/12 when scoring was down from 07/08 should temper the "shock and awe" of OV's 65 goals. It is arguably the better goalscoring season:

OV - 65
Kovy 52
Iggy - 50
Malkin - 47

Stamkos - 60
Malkin - 50
Gaborik - 41
Neal - 40

 

[Canadiens1958]

Very funny. Mario Lemieux has 0 playoff OTG, Nick Backstrom has 4. A useful career stat indeed.

Actually revealing. OTGs tend towards players on teams that roll an extra line since fatigue is a major OT factor. You also have to factor in defensive play.

Maurice Richard had 6 while Howe had 0. Canadiens rolled an extra line while the Wings extra shifted Howe while rolling one fewer line. 1951 Richard scored goals in the 3rd and 4th OT period due to his aggressive forecheck against Detroit.1953 he assisted on the cup winning goal by Lach due to his aggressive forecheck.

Likewise Backstrom with 4 - tribute to his defensive play.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I am not sure about 07/08. 6g+21a vs 15g+12a - the latter stat line seems superior
Granted, Crosby achieved his totals in 4 games less, but 9 goals is a big difference.
08/09 is close - Crosby has 4 extra assists in the same number of games (15g+16a vs 15g+12a), but one thing that leaves a bad taste about his totals that year is that half of his points came against WSH (with suspect defense and a rookie goalie) and he was shut down in the finals (1g+2a in 7 games vs. 3g+2a in 5 games for Ovechkin this year).
It is a shame 2007-2010 OV did not have a team around him to make a deep run and now we can only guess what it could have been.

Overlooking statistical depth and interpretation again:

Playoffs with fewer penalties called,career, Ovechkin has 40 ESG, 8 GWGs and is +13. Crosby has 47 ESG, 9 GWGs and is +22. Superior across the board.


Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Sidney Crosby Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Didn't Crosby and the Penguins win an SC with a Rookie goalie in 2016 and without Kris Letang their best defenceman in 2017, beating Ovechkin and the Capitals both times?

 

[Sentinel]

What does this have to do with an objective rating of each season?

Anyways, Stamkos scoring 60 in 11/12 when scoring was down from 07/08 should temper the "shock and awe" of OV's 65 goals. It is arguably the better goalscoring season:

OV - 65
Kovy 52
Iggy - 50
Malkin - 47

Stamkos - 60
Malkin - 50
Gaborik - 41
Neal - 40

1. 2011-12 season came after 2007-08. You may be aware of that.

2. No, "60 goals" is not better than "65 goals" in the same exact era.

3. When comparing different eras (99 Jagr vs. 08 Ovechkin) the perception of the contemporaries and eyewitnesses matters. Certainly no less than your metric of "next three players."

In reality, Crosby's 2018 run is superior to OV's 2018 run.

It is?
Notice, I didn't say "09 Ovy =/> 09 Crosby." I said "not far behind." Which means "behind."

 

[The Panther]

The fact remains: 1 Hart for Jagr, 3 for Ovechkin. You can twist it any which way you want. We can even call Ovy's third Hart "weak" (on par with Jagr's 95 loss?), but Ovy still was deemed League's MVP more times than Jagr.

No one is denying that Ovechkin has three Harts and Jagr one. I am very happy that Ovechkin has three Harts -- he deserves all the accolades he gets.

But are we just going to stop there, in making a comparison? FOUR times Jagr was second in Hart voting (which might be a unique achievement). That means both Jagr and Ovechkin have been either 1st or 2nd in Hart voting five times apiece. In terms of top-5 finishes, there are seven for Jagr and five for Ovechkin.

So, YES, Ovechkin has three Hart trophies to Jagr's one (even if we all know each should probably have two apiece).

Now, let's look at some things besides Hart finishes:
- 1st-team All Star: Jagr 7, Ovechkin 5
- Art Ross: Jagr 5, Ovechkin 1
- Playoff points (Jagr in 'dead-puck era', from 1997-->): Jagr 111 points /115 games, Ovechkin 117 points /121 games (exactly even, and both are +13)
- Playoff overtime goals: Jagr 4, Ovechkin 0
- Stanley Cups: Jagr 2, Ovechkin 1
- Olympic Gold: Jagr 1, Ovechkin 0

Lemieux in 2001. Which generational talent did Ovechkin EVER play with? None.

To summarize your argument here: Jagr benefitted, as compared to Ovechkin, because he played with a generational talent (Mario).

Yet, as I pointed out, most of Jagr's greatest seasons -- 1995, 1997-98, 1998-99, 1999-2000, half of 2000-01, and all of 2005-06, were played without Lemieux.

But according to you, because he got in 43 games with Lemieux in 2000-01, we'll ignore that inconvenient fact.

 

[Sentinel]

But are we just going to stop there, in making a comparison? FOUR times Jagr was second in Hart voting (which might be a unique achievement). That means both Jagr and Ovechkin have been either 1st or 2nd in Hart voting five times apiece. In terms of top-5 finishes, there are seven for Jagr and five for Ovechkin.

And in terms of Top-500 finishes...

So, YES, Ovechkin has three Hart trophies to Jagr's one (even if we all know each should probably have two apiece).

It's that "could," "should," and "probably" argument again.

- 1st-team All Star: Jagr 7, Ovechkin 5

Wrong. 7 for Ovechkin: 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2015. And 4 2nd AST on top of that.
I brought up Art Rosses, but you skipped Rockets. Ni-ice.

- Playoff points (Jagr in 'dead-puck era', from 1997-->): Jagr 111 points /115 games, Ovechkin 117 points /121 games (exactly even, and both are +13)

The scoring in Ovechkin's era was hardly higher than the DPE, and Ovy never played in the early 90s free-for-all. Ovechkin also led his team to the Cup, and there is more to life than offensive stats.

- Playoff overtime goals: Jagr 4, Ovechkin 0
- Stanley Cups: Jagr 2, Ovechkin 1
- Olympic Gold: Jagr 1, Ovechkin 0

Playoff OT goals: Mario 0, Sakic 8. Sakic >>>>>>>> Mario (that's 8 ">"s)
Conn Smythe: Jagr 0, Ovechkin 1
Olympic record: Jagr (with Hasek) 1-2, Ovechkin (with Nabokov & Bobrovsky) 0-3. Okay. FWIW, I readily admit that international performance is where Jagr is ahead of Ovy, and Crosby is ahead of them both.

But according to you, because he got in 43 games with Lemieux in 2000-01, we'll ignore that inconvenient fact.

I don't know what "inconvenient fact" you're talking about. My FACT is that Jagr, throughout his career, had MUCH BETTER TEAMMATES than Ovechkin ever did. Why are you disputing it?

Oh, and how many Cups, do you think, would Jagr win without Lemieux?

 

[Sentinel]

Overlooking statistical depth and interpretation again:

Playoffs with fewer penalties called,career, Ovechkin has 40 ESG, 8 GWGs and is +13. Crosby has 47 ESG, 9 GWGs and is +22. Superior across the board.

I absolutely refuse to subscribe to your belief that ESGs are more valuable than PPGs. A puck in the net is a puck in the net. Efficient power play acts as a deterrent for the opposition. As Tarasov said: "Let them take penalties and punish them with goals. They won't be so aggressive."

Didn't Crosby and the Penguins win an SC with a Rookie goalie in 2016 and without Kris Letang their best defenceman in 2017, beating Ovechkin and the Capitals both times?

Whattahell does this have to do with anything? Are you knocking Bobby Orr for losing to the 1971 Canadiens with a rookie goalie?

 

[Crosbyfan]

Wrong. 7 for Ovechkin: 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2015. And 4 2nd AST on top of that.
I brought up Art Rosses, but you skipped Rockets. Ni-ice.

Would it change your opinion if in the future Jagr collected a few retro-Wayne Gretzky Awards for assists?

 

[daver]

1. 2011-12 season came after 2007-08. You may be aware of that.

2. No, "60 goals" is not better than "65 goals" in the same exact era. "

Can you provide the official list of "NHL eras" so I am clear on when to make or not make comparisons.

Or should we take Crosby's 120 point season as being miles ahead of anything OV has done since 2010 since it's all the same era.

 

[daver]

It is?
Notice, I didn't say "09 Ovy =/> 09 Crosby." I said "not far behind." Which means "behind."

Yes, I did notice that and determined that if you think OV was "not far behind" of Crosby in 2009 then using the same metrics, Crosby was a bit ahead of OV in 2018.

 

[daver]

Whattahell does this have to do with anything? Are you knocking Bobby Orr for losing to the 1971 Canadiens with a rookie goalie?

No, they are knocking OV for not producing as well as Crosby in the playoffs instead of writing off less team or individual success on OV's team.

Give Crosby the same support and goaltending that OV had this year and it's Crosby raising the Cup not OV. It works both ways.

 

[Zuluss]

That's debatable. Crosby's run last year was just as strong and his 2009 is clearly better.

The poll on the main board comparing Crosby's last year run to Ovechkin's run this year has just been closed due to lopsided result Ovechkin's way. And that's for a good reason: points and games played are the same, but 15 goals vs. 8 goals are a major difference.

Crosby's 08/09 run vs. Ovechkin's 17/18 run is a more interesting comparison. On the surface, Crosby has 4 extra assists, but one thing that leaves a bad taste about his totals that year is that half of his points came against WSH (with suspect defense and a rookie goalie) and he was shut down in the finals (1g+2a in 7 games vs. 3g+2a in 5 games for Ovechkin this year).

You cannot deny that Crosby clearly influenced his team's success and "luck" with superior playoff performances as evidenced by his high end point totals and a PPG that is 20% higher than OV's.

Depends on how you define success. If you define it as getting out of the 1st round, then yes, Crosby's ppg in the 1st round is clearly superior.
Outside of the 1st round, Ovechkin's ppg is a tad higher and his gpg is way higher, so he was worse, but his team was better, and that's how he had his "success".

 

[Sentinel]

No, they are knocking OV for not producing as well as Crosby in the playoffs instead of writing off less team or individual success on OV's team.

Give Crosby the same support and goaltending that OV had this year and it's Crosby raising the Cup not OV. It works both ways.

Well, for starters, Crosby DID have the same exact players this year and last year and the year before. Unless you put enormous weight on Cullen and Bonino. Ovechkin OTOH did not have players like Shattenkirk and Williams. Oh, yeah, Smith-Pelle came through. Great.

Seriously. Who in their right mind can argue that Ovechkin and Crosby had similar support cast over their careers?