Where does Ovie now rank all time?

[895]

Re: Morenz

You guys are acting like it was all august and serious writers voting him as the best. Writers back then weren't any better than they are now. Maybe worse even, because with the internet we all have a voice and can shit on bad writers.

Even today we have absolute hacks like Steve Simmons and Bruce Garrioch. Writers that collectively think Toews is a better hockey player than Malkin on Thornton.

 

[edog37]

Other than the Conn Smythes (both of them weaker than Ovy's), all of these are team accomplishments.

Crosby had the same amount of points last year in the same amount of games as Ovechkin this year & thats “weaker”. This board never ceases to amaze.

 

[edog37]

So Crosby's team has been better than Ovechkin's, fine.
Can we now talk about them as individual players? Or do Crosby+Malkin always come as a package?

Both Crosby & Ovechkin are captains so leading is part of the overall package. Crosby’s has led his teams to multiple championships while being the best player. There’s really no debate...Crosby is the far better player.

 

[Canadiens1958]

And this matters how, when compared to his peers? Or was he the only one not allowed to make forward pass?

Morenz was definitely the fastest so he would have been hindered the most in terms of scoring.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Do you find it unlikely that two forwards with the highest peak / best prime in history played almost simultaneously?

Not really. Probably the four best goaltenders were born in pairs too: 1929 and 1965.

But if we’re taking the 5th best offensive forward (8th-10th best player) since WHA expansion and placing him above every pre-1942 player, we’re basically ignoring that hockey existed before the Original 6.

Two is a coincidence; 8-10 is actively downplaying a half-century of history in favor of what you’ve seen in your lifetime. We’re fortunate but not that fortunate.

 

[daver]

Is there general agreement that Hull, Jagr and OV have similar playoff legacies?

If so, then the quality of their regular seasons should be the difference maker. Here's how I would rank their best seasons:

Tier 1 (all-time great season) - Hull 65/66, Jagr 98/99, OV 07/08

Tier 2 (generational season) - Hull 61/62, , Jagr 99/00, OV 09/10

Tier 3 - (one of the best of their era) - Hull 59/60, Hull 63/64, Hull 66/67, Hull 68/69, Jagr 94/95, Jagr 97/98, Jagr 00/01, Jagr 05/06, Jagr 95/96, OV 08/09, OV 12/13

Tier 4 - (one of the season's best) - Hull 67/68, Jagr 96/97, OV 05/06, OV 14/15

Tier 5 - (Top Ten player for the season) - Hull 70/71, Hull 71/72, Jagr 01/02, OV 15/16, 17/18


Giving five points for a Tier 1 season down to one point for a Tier 5 season:

Jagr - 27 points
Hull - 25 points
OV - 21 points

I think Jagr and Hull have the slightly better regular season NHL resumes. I think OV has the slightly better playoff resume vs. Jagr and Hull's WHL resume keeps him clearly ahead of OV, for now.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Do you find it unlikely that two forwards with the highest peak / best prime in history played almost simultaneously?

Read Bill James, linked and how certain talents converge to a certain narrow era.

Shakespeare and Verlander | Articles | Bill James Online

Function of demand in any given society.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Also applies to Bobby Hull, so that's some nice logic.

Weird. I don’t know that I’ve ever had to explain to someone that NHL seasons used to be shorter and that Bobby Hull left for the WHA for 7 seasons so his NHL career totals aren’t exactly analogous to everyone else’s situation... but here we are.

Hell, Stan Mikita outscored Bobby Hull by ~300 NHL points, but I wouldn’t read into it too much.

 

[Killion]

Re: Morenz

You guys are acting like it was all august and serious writers voting him as the best. Writers back then weren't any better than they are now. Maybe worse even, because with the internet we all have a voice and can **** on bad writers.

Who's "pretending" that? August & serious. Sports reporters who take themselves that seriously generally arent worth reading. Full of themselves & often full of ****.... Not here to debate the superiority of past vs future, todays sports reporters vs the old guys, the "hockey beat writers" & so on of the 1st half of the 20th Century into the 50's (just as so many like to try & pull around here with players). They all had/have flaws, all had various masters to whom they had to & have to cowtow, slanted, biased in so many cases. Turning a blind eye... But I'll tell ya what... give me a sports reporter from the dirty 30's, 40's through 50's any day over the modern day approximations. Internet n' all. World at their fingertips. Information is not knowledge, knowledge alone is not wisdom.

Those old timers were Wordsmiths, they loved the english language; words. Painted pictures with those words. Masterpieces. Knew their stuff, the game & players inside out. What'dya get today? Some idiot running his mouth on sports talk radio, a "media celebrity" like Bob McCown or whomever... so called "writers"... fingertips across a keyboard, 140 characters or less on twitter... David Shoalts of the Globe & Mail being duped by a bunch of Frat Boyz, wanna be Franchise owners down in Arizona with barely 2 nickles to rub together, cant even finance a ham sandwich... that theyve decided instead to run off & buy Manchester United for Billions, eff the Coyotes... which Davey Boy there reports as FACT in the Globe & Mail; "Canada's Newspaper"... on & on & on. These guys are better are they? Better than the likes of a Ted Reeve? A Dink Carroll? On & on. Dozens upon dozens more. So no. Not buyin. Not for a second. One of my biggest beefs, pet peeves; the state of so called journalism, reporting & writing, hockey, sports, pretty much everything. Its absolutely pathetic. Not all but my God, the good so few & far between you really have to go hunting to find it. Not back in the day you didnt.

 

[Fantomas]

Weird. I don’t know that I’ve ever had to explain to someone that NHL seasons used to be shorter and that Bobby Hull left for the WHA for 7 seasons so his NHL career totals aren’t exactly analogous to everyone else’s situation... but here we are.

Hell, Stan Mikita outscored Bobby Hull by ~300 NHL points, but I wouldn’t read into it too much.

Hull left for the WHA at approximately the same age as Ovechkin is now, which is precisely why your comment is so dumb.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not really. Probably the four best goaltenders were born in pairs too: 1929 and 1965.

But if we’re taking the 5th best offensive forward (8th-10th best player) since WHA expansion and placing him above every pre-1942 player, we’re basically ignoring that hockey existed before the Original 6.

Two is a coincidence; 8-10 is actively downplaying a half-century of history in favor of what you’ve seen in your lifetime. We’re fortunate but not that fortunate.

Some one appreciates Bill James. Also significant is that one pair played mainly in the O6 NHL and the 1965 pair played mainly in what some refer to as the International NHL.

League size or population or provenance had nothing to do with either pair.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Hull left for the WHA at approximately the same age as Ovechkin is now, which is precisely why your comment is so dumb.

Does have Ovechkin 7 seasons in the WHA that you feel I have not adequately factored into my evaluation of his career?

Then I’m still pretty dismissive of this idea that he’s surpassed Jagr’s career.

 

[Iapyi]

He's won just about every regular season award he could win, now he finally wins it all with a Conn Smythe, silencing all his doubters. Where does the GOAT of our generation rank amongst the all time greats?

What does this have to do with the thread title? Maybe be more clear next time?

As for both the subject matter in the title and the bold portion of the OP nothing is changed at all.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Well it could be argued that Ovechkin is both - he is ahead of Hull but there is still Hull ahead of him.
But now, with Cup and Conn Smythe, maybe he is already ahead of two Hulls...

...he's a catamaran!

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Ovechkin is ahead of Jagr and Lafleur. He's already got an argument over Hull so any combination of 1 more rocket, couple high end hart finishes or strong playoff run and he's easily the 2nd best W of all time.

 

[The Panther]

So you prefer point-counting to trophy-counting. Well, I don't. There is a reason AR winners arent automatically MVPs.

I'm not saying I prefer any one thing to another; I'm just saying that trophy-counting NEVER tells us the whole story, despite your best attempt (above). Jagr's competition for Hart trophies was Mario Lemieux, prime Lindros, and Joe Thornton in 2006. Ovechkin's was frequently-injured Crosby. I would venture to suggest that Jagr's and Ovechkin's Hart trophy-'countings' would be in Jagr's favor if the situations were reversed. (Anyway, Jagr might have won the Hart in 1995. He probably should have won it in 2006.)

And, again: unlike Hull, Yzerman, Crosby, and Jagr, Ovechkin never had the benefit of playing with another generational talent.

Which generational talent was Jagr playing with in 1995, 1997-2001, and 2006?

 

[Batis]

It has been so great watching Ovechkin during this playoff-run. Such an inspired performance. I would probably have him somewhere in the 10-20 range at this point.

Ovechkin is not done yet. Let's see inside a few years. I only hope - for his own sake, since he is always willing to play for his country - that one day he could give a legendary performance on the Russian national team too.

Yes this is what I am hoping for as well. After this strong playoff-run his international resume is really the only (relatively) weak spot on his resume. Especially his sub-par performances at the knock-out stage of best-on-best tournaments.

Especially when we consider that Ovechkin in best-on-best tournaments has scored almost all of his points in the group stage. If we only look at the knockout stage (including the bronze medal game in 2006 and the qualification playoff game in 2014) this is Ovechkins stats in best-on-best tournaments.

World Cup 2004: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2006: 3 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
Olympics 2010: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2014: 2 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
World Cup 2016: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Total: 8 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts

Considering how passionate Ovechkin seems to be about playing for his national team I am sure that he would love to give a legendary performance there as well like you said. Hopefully he manages to give one before age starts to really catch up to him.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I'm not saying I prefer any one thing to another; I'm just saying that trophy-counting NEVER tells us the whole story, despite your best attempt (above). Jagr's competition for Hart trophies was Mario Lemieux, prime Lindros, and Joe Thornton in 2006. Ovechkin's was frequently-injured Crosby. I would venture to suggest that Jagr's and Ovechkin's Hart trophy-'countings' would be in Jagr's favor if the situations were reversed. (Anyway, Jagr might have won the Hart in 1995. He probably should have won it in 2006.)

Which generational talent was Jagr playing with in 1995, 1997-2001, and 2006?

Lemieux is an obvious outlier but Crosby > any other competition Jagr had. Malkin, who I'm guessing you forgot, is also better than Lindros, Thornton, etc.

 

[Zuluss]

Both Crosby & Ovechkin are captains so leading is part of the overall package. Crosby’s has led his teams to multiple championships while being the best player. There’s really no debate...Crosby is the far better player.

"Leading" is part of the non-sensical "intangibles" that people use to rank Toews over Malkin.
Ovechkin's Conn Smythe run was better than any of Crosby's Conn Smythe runs.
Crosby was just fortunate to play on better/luckier teams.

Peak and historical significance are in Ovechkin's favor, prime is a wash at best, and may even be in Ovechkin's favor if you value goals enough.

Crosby's case is ppg and team awards, and it has been this way for a decade. Both ppg and team awards are horrible ways of comparing players.

 

[Zuluss]

Crosby had the same amount of points last year in the same amount of games as Ovechkin this year & thats “weaker”. This board never ceases to amaze.

Goals are in Ovechkin's favor (15 vs. 8). Goals in SCF are also 3 to 1 Ovechkin, and then we can also dig into pivotal plays like setting up the series-clinching OT goal vs. PIT or scoring the GWG in Game 7 vs. TBL.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Ovechkin's Conn Smythe run was better than any of Crosby's Conn Smythe runs.

Maybe. But also maybe not as good as Crosby’s 2008 and 2009, and he only outscored 2018 playoff Crosby by 6 points in 12 extra games, so let’s not overstate the relevance of 27 points in 24 games against teams that allowed ~236 GA.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Goals are in Ovechkin's favor (15 vs. 8). Goals in SCF are also 3 to 1 Ovechkin, and then we can also dig into pivotal plays like setting up the series-clinching OT goal vs. PIT or scoring the GWG in Game 7 vs. TBL.

Nice job. Ovechkin is now in a free fall below Maurice Richard who has 6 playoff OT goals, Joe Sakic who has 8:

Maurice Richard Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Joe Sakic Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

Countless players down to Pete Babando who have 1.

Ovechkin has 0 OT playoff goals:
Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

How many players have assists on playoff OT goals?

 

[Evincar]

You can thank Lemieux and Hasek for that.

(Yes, I realize I'm simplfying, but Jagr was never really "the guy" on a team that had a lot of success).

Edit: as for well-roundedness, Jagr was definitely more rounded offensively, but overall? Ovechkin's physical play has always been a factor - in fact, it just helped his team win the Cup.

Why Jagr have Hasek to thank for the 1998 Olympic Gold? Jagr was their 2nd best player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Why Jagr have Hasek to thank for the 1998 Olympic Gold? Jagr was their 2nd best player.

When did Team Russia have goaltending that good?

Back to 1998, Jagr's 5 points in 6 games onky tied him for the team lead:
Team Czech Republic at Olympic Games in 1998

That team won because of Hasek and a great team defense.

 

[Evincar]

When did Team Russia have goaltending that good?

Back to 1998, Jagr's 5 points in 6 games onky tied him for the team lead:
Team Czech Republic at Olympic Games in 1998

That team won because of Hasek and a great team defense.

Given how talent deficient the Czech roster at the time, Jagr played a key role by drawing so much defensive attention. 5 points in 6 games would have tied him for the team lead on Team Canada.

Yeah they played great team defense but its the only way they could have won.