Where do you place the blame?

[Barrie22]

Yes, this is true in part.

Part of my I give DW and now TMac some slack, is that keeping Thornton and Marleau as the core is something that 99% of good GMs would have done, especially after it looked like JT was turning a corner in 2011. Plus, both players give the Sharks a playoff spot...

With Tmac, he's generally regarded as a very good coach, the players have stuck by him strongly, and I have liked the general strategy he has brought to the team.

Lastly, I will say that if you fire DW for not hiring an effective coach or for bringing in the wrong types of core players, you also have to get rid of the coach and the players.

You do that before changing the players. I am sure boston's new GM would of rather had thornton on the ice when he took over with the new coach and front office. Then having to try and find a replacement, later on.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Yes, this is true in part.

Part of my I give DW and now TMac some slack, is that keeping Thornton and Marleau as the core is something that 99% of good GMs would have done, especially after it looked like JT was turning a corner in 2011. Plus, both players give the Sharks a playoff spot...

With Tmac, he's generally regarded as a very good coach, the players have stuck by him strongly, and I have liked the general strategy he has brought to the team.

Lastly, I will say that if you fire DW for not hiring an effective coach or for bringing in the wrong types of core players, you also have to get rid of the coach and the players.

But if you consistently call the players a disappointment for the time frame we're speaking of, you have to have the same standard for the GM because he backed them up and is in essence behind the disappointments himself. I don't see a good reason to hold the players accountable yet not the GM in this situation.

 

[hockeyball]

But if you consistently call the players a disappointment for the time frame we're speaking of, you have to have the same standard for the GM because he backed them up and is in essence behind the disappointments himself. I don't see a good reason to hold the players accountable yet not the GM in this situation.

The difference is the GM appears to be improving and they believe he's learning from his mistakes. Also, the GM is much harder to replace (with similar ability) than a player, even of Thorntons levels. You might take a step back with moving Thornton, but you might get a complete cluster **** with a bad gm.

They don't seem to feel the same way about Thornton, and I don't blame them. If he hasn't changed by now he isn't going to.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The difference is the GM appears to be improving and they believe he's learning from his mistakes.

They don't seem to feel the say way about Thornton, and I don't blame them. If he hasn't changed my now he isn't going to.

Even if the GM starts to come around with Thornton after 9 seasons, what about all the other stuff that is wrong that he's never figured out? A blue line...goaltending...depth up front...never having all of that in a given season let alone consistently. He certainly can sound convincing, I can give him that. I don't buy it. There's more wrong with this team than just Thornton's or Marleau's shortcomings.

 

[Gilligans Island]

<bump>

Wasn't sure where to put this, didn't want to clutter other threads.

Doughty on SJ: "You could see it in their eyes and their team and their captains and leaders that they were worried about us coming back."

https://twitter.com/MarkLazerus/status/476759812655833088

Nothing new really - just the first actual quote I've seen from a Kings player citing our lack of mental toughness and self-defeated attitude. It's very sad that it's defined this team.

I heard Sutter before Game 3 (in this series) said he knew in the 1st period of Game 4 (of our series) that the Kings would come back.

 

[hohosaregood]

I wonder what the hell happened this year. It's not like they were all that mentally weak last year when they took LA to 7. The year before, Joe was by far the best player for the team against St. Louis. Two years of back to back WCFs. They rolled over and took it this year.

 

[Gilligans Island]

I wonder what the hell happened this year. It's not like they were all that mentally weak last year when they took LA to 7. The year before, Joe was by far the best player for the team against St. Louis. Two years of back to back WCFs. They rolled over and took it this year.

My guess is it's a cumulative effect of all the years of playoff failure. For those of us who've played sports, we know how it is - you have to be extremely mentally tough to put the past in the past. The vets on this team probably see ghosts and it becomes pavlovian.

Enough psycho analysis for me

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Easy to say that **** after they won. What if the refs actually call goalie interference on the game 6 goal or don't call the Muzzin dive/running into Couture's elbow in game 7?

Poughty Doughty said stupid **** after the Sharks knocked them out in 11. Besides cheeseburgers, he's full of hot air.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I wonder what the hell happened this year. It's not like they were all that mentally weak last year when they took LA to 7. The year before, Joe was by far the best player for the team against St. Louis. Two years of back to back WCFs. They rolled over and took it this year.

I've been often wondering this myself.

 

[LeeIFBB]

You don't think they rolled over in those WCFs?

 

[magic school bus]

Doughty can go **** himself. That is absolute bs. His teammates were basically crying after they went down 3-0.

 

[slocal]

Easy to say that **** after they won. What if the refs actually call goalie interference on the game 6 goal or don't call the Muzzin dive/running into Couture's elbow in game 7?

Poughty Doughty said stupid **** after the Sharks knocked them out in 11. Besides cheeseburgers, he's full of hot air.

Exactly. Doughty's probably hoping Jumbo gets traded to the East so Joe's fist doesn't go into his eyes.

 

[LadyStanley]

Kings' Doughty: Sharks' leaders worried about comeback

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=454566

Doughty claims that Sharks were "worried" about a comeback after the game 4 win.

"Once we won that first game of the San Jose series, we kind of had a feeling we were going to come back and win that series," Doughty said Wednesday several hours before Game 4 of the final. "And you could see it in their eyes and their team and their captains and leaders that they were worried about us coming back. So we don't want to give these guys any life."

Definitely need a huge dose of confidence to overcome this doubt going forward.

 

[Friday]

Ouch.

 

[SJSharksfan39]

I can believe that. The Sharks got complacent and it showed. I've been reading comments about how fans don't want Thornton to leave, yet I remember that series and if we can get some good return, why don't we want him to leave. I like the guy too, but this is a what have you done for me lately league, and I remember Thornton being pretty useless in that series.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I can believe that. The Sharks got complacent and it showed. I've been reading comments about how fans don't want Thornton to leave, yet I remember that series and if we can get some good return, why don't we want him to leave. I like the guy too, but this is a what have you done for me lately league, and I remember Thornton being pretty useless in that series.

That's not getting complacent. They panicked.

 

[OrrNumber4]

You don't think they rolled over in those WCFs?

They might have. It is difficult, because at the time, the analysis are influenced by expectations.

The Hawks were just such a dominant team....that series was Chicago's to lose. Chicago was a very talented team, firing on all cylinders, with good intangibles/x factors. Even if the Sharks had found that extra gear to their game, even if they had been able to adapt better to Chicago, I think it was very clear that Chicago's significant talent edge would give them the series. The Sharks needed Chicago to give them an opening, and Chicago really didn't give them one. Plus, blame at specific players was almost exclusively heaped upon Nabokov.

It is kind of similar to LA-NYR. Strong odds were that if both teams showed up at their best, the series would go to LA. Considering LA's weak start...maybe if Nash shows up, and if Lundqvist played better, perhaps NYR would be up 2-1. But since the expectation was already that they would lose, NYR fans might overlook their own team's deficiencies.

Against Vancouver, I think many of us thought felt that the Sharks had a good chance to beat Vancouver. Plus, while they might not have "rolled over", there was a lot more the Sharks could have done to have helped them take the series. Finishing Detroit off sooner, for one. Showing up in games 2 and 4, not ceding the lead in game 5 (or game 1 for that matter...didn't the Sharks lead going to the 3rd?) as others. There was no convenient scapegoat, as well.

 

[Gilligans Island]

That's not getting complacent. They panicked.

Both. Game 5 = complacency/lack of urgency.

Game 6 and 7 panic after Kings broke the tie and tied it, respectively.

Against Vancouver, I think many of us thought felt that the Sharks had a good chance to beat Vancouver. Plus, while they might not have "rolled over", there was a lot more the Sharks could have done to have helped them take the series. Finishing Detroit off sooner, for one. Showing up in games 2 and 4, not ceding the lead in game 5 (or game 1 for that matter...didn't the Sharks lead going to the 3rd?) as others. There was no convenient scapegoat, as well.

Yep. Complacency in the Wings series was an issue.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Doughty can go **** himself. That is absolute bs. His teammates were basically crying after they went down 3-0.

He said they started to feel that way after winning Game 4, and is that really so hard to believe? The Sharks completely no-showed for Game 5 at home where they almost never lose, and overall they were a completely different team the last three games. And no, I don't chalk all of that up to the Kings changing up their strategy and being a better possession team in the regular season. I know the advanced stats crowd likes to downplay media-driven narratives and things like "mental toughness", "intangibles", and "confidence", and I agree with them to a certain extent, but there was a very clear shift in momentum after that Williams goal in Game 4, and you could see it in the way that both teams played from that point on.

 

[hohosaregood]

Against Vancouver, I think many of us thought felt that the Sharks had a good chance to beat Vancouver. Plus, while they might not have "rolled over", there was a lot more the Sharks could have done to have helped them take the series. Finishing Detroit off sooner, for one. Showing up in games 2 and 4, not ceding the lead in game 5 (or game 1 for that matter...didn't the Sharks lead going to the 3rd?) as others. There was no convenient scapegoat, as well.

If they finish off the Wings series early, Clowe wouldn't have gotten Kronwalled and no separated shoulder. That could've led to a lot of changes.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Yep. Complacency in the Wings series was an issue.

No it wasn't.

Each one of those games was close. Hell, game 4 in Detroit was tied until Helm scored near the very end.

I think most confuse poor result and execution to things like effort. Do you really think they didn't try in game 5 this year? Yes, they lookes horrid, that's because they got out played in every zone. It's not like they really thought 'oh well, we got a couple more chances'.

 

[hohosaregood]

No it wasn't.

Each one of those games was close. Hell, game 4 in Detroit was tied until Helm scored near the very end.

I think most confuse poor result and execution to things like effort. Do you really think they didn't try in game 5 this year? Yes, they lookes horrid, that's because they got out played in every zone. It's not like they really thought 'oh well, we got a couple more chances'.

Beer league hockey games have better execution than they did during game 5. I don't know what was going on on their end but they did not go into that game ready. They had like 22 giveaways to 12 shots at one point. You almost have to try to actually be that bad.

 

[Gilligans Island]

No it wasn't.

Each one of those games was close. Hell, game 4 in Detroit was tied until Helm scored near the very end.

I think most confuse poor result and execution to things like effort. Do you really think they didn't try in game 5 this year? Yes, they lookes horrid, that's because they got out played in every zone. It's not like they really thought 'oh well, we got a couple more chances'.

Game 5 against the Wings, leading going into the 3rd. They sat back and got what they deserved.

and this year's Game 5, I think it was a combination of complacency and lack of focus/attention to detail/commitment to the game. The Kings came out firing and the results showed for themselves.

 

[Gilligans Island]

Beer league hockey games have better execution than they did during game 5. I don't know what was going on on their end but they did not go into that game ready. They had like 22 giveaways to 12 shots at one point. You almost have to try to actually be that bad.

To me that's the definition of complacency / lack of focus/ lack of attention to detail...

 

[hohosaregood]

To me that's the definition of complacency / lack of focus/ lack of attention to detail...

Wasn't really arguing against you but it when I think of complacency, I think lazy like they can kick back and it'll be fine. Game 5 was worse than that. It was like they went to the game extremely hungover. As much as you want to do something well when you're super hungover, you just can't. Although I can't really say they were really tried that game.