Where do you place the blame?

[Juxtaposer]

Protection is not what line or pairing, it is the quality of competition. In that sense, JT was protected in SJ this year. The guys who weren't protected in TO were Gunnarson and Phaneuf.

The end of the year debacle wasn't just percentages catching up. There was some definite tanking going on. I grant the other obstacles, but just chance should have given them a lot better record.

BTW, after some of the stuff in Edmonton, I don't think Eakins should be a coach, much less an NHL coach. This just adds to it.

IMO, the Leafs made a mistake with Grabo. They should have kept him around to face top comp at least til their top forwards improved their defense.

Buying out Grabovski was the single dumbest move the Leafs made.

 

[SJeasy]

Buying out Grabovski was the single dumbest move the Leafs made.

It astounded me. I assumed Carlyle used metrics. Carlyle and Babcock are the two most intense matchup coaches in the league. They pull out all the stops to get their matchups. I also raised my estimation of Sutter's matchup abilities after this latest series with LA. From game 3 onwards, I was watching Kopitar get a variety of matchups. The only reservation I have on Sutter is that TM might have been partly responsible himself.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Your argument is the same every time. Its real easy to pick an opposite point of view however the problem is still there. Yes you need players that can play with the puck, but if you want success you need a balance of that and being tough to play against. Every year its the same story with the Sharks, and every year people bring up the same names. Its time to finally stop coddling these players. How many teams have given up a 3-0 lead? Its outright embarassing and heads should roll.

Heads will roll but the only head that should be rolling, if anyone on the ice among the same names you're talking about, is Thornton. He was dreadful and put out easily his worst playoff performance since being a Shark. His performance, to me, was the single biggest reason the team lost. His line essentially only produced in game 1 on the first goal of the series three minutes into the game. Between him, Jumbo, Pavelski, and Hertl when he was up there, those guys managed to produce an empty net goal as a line in game one after that...the unassisted Brent Burns goal.

Silver lining though is that the previous three teams that blew the 3-0 series lead eventually won the Cup after that so take that solace for what it's worth. lol

 

[Juxtaposer]

It astounded me. I assumed Carlyle used metrics. Carlyle and Babcock are the two most intense matchup coaches in the league. They pull out all the stops to get their matchups. I also raised my estimation of Sutter's matchup abilities after this latest series with LA. From game 3 onwards, I was watching Kopitar get a variety of matchups. The only reservation I have on Sutter is that TM might have been partly responsible himself.

The Leafs overreacted to bad luck in the playoffs. Same reason the Bruins gave away Seguin.

 

[Led Zappa]

Trade Marleau. He sucks. He's the single biggest reason we lost. I'm sick of his non-intensisty wansy pansy disappearing act every year.


Ah.......... that felt good.

 

[DarrylshutzSydor]

Silver lining though is that the previous three teams that blew the 3-0 series lead eventually won the Cup after that so take that solace for what it's worth. lol

If that is indeed true, then I could live with that.

 

[Swervin81]

Buying out Grabovski was the single dumbest move the Leafs made.

It astounded me. I assumed Carlyle used metrics. Carlyle and Babcock are the two most intense matchup coaches in the league. They pull out all the stops to get their matchups. I also raised my estimation of Sutter's matchup abilities after this latest series with LA. From game 3 onwards, I was watching Kopitar get a variety of matchups. The only reservation I have on Sutter is that TM might have been partly responsible himself.

Knee jerk reaction. Grabovski has one bad season? Buy him out! Clarkson has one bad season with even more disastrous production levels? Welcome to the top 6

Matchups are the only thing Carlyle is good at. Otherwise, he is a stubborn mule whose archaic system is really old and no longer anywhere near a recipe for success in today's game. Carlyle hates metrics. Him and Nonis were mocking those advanced stats all season long until they finally caught up to the Leafs.

The Leafs overreacted to bad luck in the playoffs. Same reason the Bruins gave away Seguin.

Agreed. The collapse was a once in a generation fluke. 4-1 leads can be blown by anyone and they are blown by anyone. The only thing that made Toronto's special was that it was in a game 7, which never happened before.

Same thing with this year's Sharks. There is no way any of these players will repeat this collapse, blowing a 3-0 series lead. The chances of it happening again are virtually impossible.

 

[Negatively Positive]

Same thing with this year's Sharks. There is no way any of these players will repeat this collapse, blowing a 3-0 series lead. The chances of it happening again are virtually impossible.

From now on when the Sharks go up 2-0, they'll give away game 3 because they're afraid of being up 3-0 ever again

 

[Swervin81]

From now on when the Sharks go up 2-0, they'll give away game 3 because they're afraid of being up 3-0 ever again

Except against the Canucks, then we're good. Can't outchoke the ultimate chokers. If we did, that means we choked against chokers, which is a double negative and means we didn't choke, which would be a Sharks franchise first

 

[SJGoalie32]

The collapse was a once in a generation fluke.

There is no way any of these players will repeat this collapse, blowing a 3-0 series lead. The chances of it happening again are virtually impossible.

Really? Because the Sharks blew a 3-0 series lead before managing to hold on at the last possible moment just 3 years ago.

I'll say this again, the Sharks are the only team in North American professional sports history to even allow a Game 7 after having a 3-0 series lead twice in the same half century. They did it 36 months apart. The odds of that happening were pretty astronomical, too. But when it comes to the Sharks, never underestimate their ability to disappoint.

This was a team that already had a reputation for choking, a history of squandering series leads, a history of taking their foot of the gas and coasting in games where they get a decent lead, then they squander a 3-0 lead against Detroit before finally squeaking their way to a victory en route to a 5-game beatdown by Vancouver, that nearly let a 5-0 lead get away from them in Game 1 this year.....and then just completely self-destructed.

If the guys on this team (particularly those still around from the 2011 postseason) STILL haven't figured out how to not let teams crawl back into series.....then they never will. Frankly, I don't think this series will serve any meaningful lesson on overcoming that.

They may not repeat this collapse again. If for no other reason than that the Sharks have only ever had a 3-0 series 5 times in franchise history (so they may not even get another such lead for awhile). But I doubt any such future outcome will be a reflection of some great intangible lesson learned in the last few weeks.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Sharks have been up 3-0, and allowed:

4 straight wins (LA, 2014)
3 straight wins (Detroit, 2011)
2 straight wins (Colorado, 2004)
1 win (Detroit, 2010)
0 wins (Vancouver, 2013)

The Sharks have been up 3-1 and allowed:
2 straight wins (St.Louis, 2000)
1 straight win (LA, 2011)
0 straight wins (Nas x2)

What does it mean? I don't know...

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Sharks have been up 3-0, and allowed:

4 straight wins (LA, 2014)
3 straight wins (Detroit, 2011)
2 straight wins (Colorado, 2004)
1 win (Detroit, 2010)
0 wins (Vancouver, 2013)

The Sharks have been up 3-1 and allowed:
2 straight wins (St.Louis, 2000)
1 straight win (LA, 2011)
0 straight wins (Nas x2)

What does it mean? I don't know...

They're poised to blow a 3-1 series lead to complete the choke collection.

 

[DystopianTierney]

I'll say this again, the Sharks are the only team in North American professional sports history to even allow a Game 7 after having a 3-0 series lead twice in the same half century. They did it 36 months apart. The odds of that happening were pretty astronomical, too. But when it comes to the Sharks, never underestimate their ability to disappoint.

It's really unbelievable. Even if the Sharks had done it twice in franchise history it would hurt in contrast to everything on the books. To do it twice in that short a span..... while having the best players the franchise has ever had....

 

[Negatively Positive]

Sharks fans will never be totally comfortable with a 3-0 lead ever again. It's pretty sad. Damn you Sharks.

 

[sharski]

Same thing with this year's Sharks. There is no way any of these players will repeat this collapse, blowing a 3-0 series lead. The chances of it happening again are virtually impossible.

 

[ChompChomp]

Sharks fans will never be totally comfortable with a 3-0 lead ever again. It's pretty sad. Damn you Sharks.

Sad, but funny. Because say next season they are up 2-0 and then win Game 3 in a series to go up 3-0.

Even though they will have just WON a PLAYOFF game, half the fanbase will immediately jump off a cliff and "here we go again" threads will pop up here.

It's something you will never see with fans of any other team in any sport on the planet.

 

[HOOCH2173]

Sad, but funny. Because say next season they are up 2-0 and then win Game 3 in a series to go up 3-0.

Even though they will have just WON a PLAYOFF game, half the fanbase will immediately jump off a cliff and "here we go again" threads will pop up here.

It's something you will never see with fans of any other team in any sport on the planet.

I think the beginning of the season all fans who attend home and or away games should don this:

Then only take it off should they go up 3-0 and actual win the so called game 4!

 

[Swervin81]

It's something you will never see with fans of any other team in any sport on the planet.

Multiply that negativity mentioned by 1000000 and you get Toronto fans. Trust me, you guys aren't even that bad for HF bipolar standards.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Sharks have been up 3-0, and allowed:

4 straight wins (LA, 2014)
3 straight wins (Detroit, 2011)
2 straight wins (Colorado, 2004)
1 win (Detroit, 2010)
0 wins (Vancouver, 2013)

The Sharks have been up 3-1 and allowed:
2 straight wins (St.Louis, 2000)
1 straight win (LA, 2011)
0 straight wins (Nas x2)

What does it mean? I don't know...

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Sad, but funny. Because say next season they are up 2-0 and then win Game 3 in a series to go up 3-0.

Even though they will have just WON a PLAYOFF game, half the fanbase will immediately jump off a cliff and "here we go again" threads will pop up here.

It's something you will never see with fans of any other team in any sport on the planet.

It happened with the Bruins in 2011. They had lost to Philadelphia in 7, winning the first 3 and losing the next 4 in 2010. In 2011, Boston once again won the first three games, and the threads all popped up, but the Bruins just won game 4 to end things very quickly

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

It had ALOT to do with tough ness and abrasiveness. Couture was owned by Mike Richards. Stoll owned whoever he played against. Kopitar AND Williams showed grit. Go up and down the sharks roster and you may come up with only a handful of guys that are gritty, but waay more that are easy to play against, and it showed.

Couture beat up mike Richards in a fight and was still awful...how did the Kings players show grit? I want a solid example, because I didn't see it. I saw a better hockey team win a hockey game.

 

[The Nemesis]

Something funny I saw last night/this morning on TSN with their panel dissecting Pittsburgh firing Shero but not Bylsma:

Talking about the Pens' failure to be the dynasty everyone predicted, Aaron Ward specifically said that the players were trying to fall on the sword for the team's disappointing results but that it wasn't their fault and that it was on Bylsma for not being able to steer the team toward success. I also remember someone in a different segment hanging everything on Shero for not getting the right pieces to support Crosby and Malkin and Letang and co. Even M-A Fleury, who gets a ton of blame for his collapses in previous years wasn't held up as a key contributor to Pittsburgh's continued failures. It was almost all about absolving the players from blame and making the coach/front office shoulder the responsibility.

What a stark contrast to San Jose, where a team with similar problems ends up having all the blame laid at the feat of "No-Show Joe" and "gutless" Patrick Marleau and all the players while DW and McLellan get off scot free in the media's eyes.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Talking about the Pens' failure to be the dynasty everyone predicted, Aaron Ward specifically said that the players were trying to fall on the sword for the team's disappointing results but that it wasn't their fault and that it was on Bylsma for not being able to steer the team toward success. I also remember someone in a different segment hanging everything on Shero for not getting the right pieces to support Crosby and Malkin and Letang and co. Even M-A Fleury, who gets a ton of blame for his collapses in previous years wasn't held up as a key contributor to Pittsburgh's continued failures. It was almost all about absolving the players from blame and making the coach/front office shoulder the responsibility.

What a stark contrast to San Jose, where a team with similar problems ends up having all the blame laid at the feat of "No-Show Joe" and "gutless" Patrick Marleau and all the players while DW and McLellan get off scot free in the media's eyes.

Difference is that Bylsma has specifically made very, very questionable moves that TMac hasn't. TMac hasn't shown the same disdain for rookies, for example.

When it comes to the GM, DW (and IMO Shero as well) he's given his team chance after chance. A GM's job to assemble the roster, the coach's job to prepare the team, and the team's to go out and execute.

With San Jose, the failures tend to fall heavily into that last category.

In my opinion, Shero did what he could. He had a contending team with several "fixed" pieces, with little cap space and low draft picks. So he consistently did what he could to give his team the best chance year-in and year-out.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Difference is that Bylsma has specifically made very, very questionable moves that TMac hasn't. TMac hasn't shown the same disdain for rookies, for example.

When it comes to the GM, DW (and IMO Shero as well) he's given his team chance after chance. A GM's job to assemble the roster, the coach's job to prepare the team, and the team's to go out and execute.

With San Jose, the failures tend to fall heavily into that last category.

In my opinion, Shero did what he could. He had a contending team with several "fixed" pieces, with little cap space and low draft picks. So he consistently did what he could to give his team the best chance year-in and year-out.

And why isn't the GM held accountable for bringing in the players that tend to fail consistently in the execution department or for bringing in the coach that can't effectively prepare them?

 

[OrrNumber4]

And why isn't the GM held accountable for bringing in the players that tend to fail consistently in the execution department or for bringing in the coach that can't effectively prepare them?

Yes, this is true in part.

Part of my I give DW and now TMac some slack, is that keeping Thornton and Marleau as the core is something that 99% of good GMs would have done, especially after it looked like JT was turning a corner in 2011. Plus, both players give the Sharks a playoff spot...

With Tmac, he's generally regarded as a very good coach, the players have stuck by him strongly, and I have liked the general strategy he has brought to the team.

Lastly, I will say that if you fire DW for not hiring an effective coach or for bringing in the wrong types of core players, you also have to get rid of the coach and the players.