When Does the USA Surpass Canada as the #1 Hockey Country?

[Choice]

it will never happen

 

[therealdeal]

You’re absolutely correct, but I’m talking about the future and not too far in the future either, but yeah right now there’s no doubt about what you say. Things go in cycles and the US is coming out of a dry cycle right now. Look at the last few NHL entry drafts, the number of high picks for the US has gone up, this next draft there will probably be 10-11 first rounders for USA hockey, which may actually be more than what Canada gets. As long as I’ve followed the game there has never been this many top rated Americans coming up through their system. And from what I’ve seen and read this is nothing but the tip of the iceberg, like I said in a previous post the US has already passed Canada in registered players, so they have the quantity all they have to do is work on the quality .

Don’t forget their best has already beaten our best. Remember the 96 World Cup? And those players came from a system that had a player pool half the size of what they have now.

So they managed to win 1 tournament 10 years ago? Oh, and the junior one, okay 2, but thats not even best on best.

Canada is still producing far more top level talent in every facet of the game, offense, defense, goaltending. The US is the top rated team because Canada's best players are too good. And after Kessel, who is their phenom of sorts?

 

[nomorekids]

So they managed to win 1 tournament 10 years ago? Oh, and the junior one, okay 2, but thats not even best on best.

Canada is still producing far more top level talent in every facet of the game, offense, defense, goaltending. The US is the top rated team because Canada's best players are too good. And after Kessel, who is their phenom of sorts?

Kyle Okposo

 

[therealdeal]

Kyle Okposo

Cool, can I get like a link or something? Or stats or something?

When an US player wins the WJC and the WC in the same year you can claim to be the best, when a US player wins the Richard trophy before he turns 21 you can claim to the best, when you win 2 or 3 best on bests in a row you can claim to be the best.

Heck, when you have even 10 players under the age of 21 playing in the NHL and doing well, you can claim to be the best.

I don't see any of those things happening in the near future.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

The US is the top rated team because Canada's best players are too good.

Okay, if it makes you sleep better at night.

 

[therealdeal]

Okay, if it makes you sleep better at night.

Ask yourself this question, if Crosby was in the tournament, who would have the best player between Canada and the States?

 

[nomorekids]

Ask yourself this question, if Crosby was in the tournament, who would have the best player between Canada and the States?

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

 

[therealdeal]

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

Yeah, IF only our 18 year old wasn't leading his team in scoring, unlike you're 18 year olds who are projected to be pretty good when they one day make the NHL.

Well you're right, America takes the title.

 

[nomorekids]

Yeah, IF only our 18 year old wasn't leading his team in scoring, unlike you're 18 year olds who are projected to be pretty good when they one day make the NHL.

Well you're right, America takes the title.

See, this kills me. Even if the USA wins gold this year, there will be those like yourself who will forever try to take something away from it. Always out to apply an asterisk. "Well, if we had CROSBY and BRULE..." Never willing to just shut up and give credit where it's due. "Well, yeah they won gold in '03, but it was only because Fleury crapped the bed." There's always an excuse. Does the concept of sportsmanship mean nothing to you?

 

[therealdeal]

See, this kills me. Even if the USA wins gold this year, there will be those like yourself who will forever try to take something away from it. Always out to apply an asterisk. "Well, if we had CROSBY and BRULE..." Never willing to just shut up and give credit where it's due. "Well, yeah they won gold in '03, but it was only because Fleury crapped the bed." There's always an excuse. Does the concept of sportsmanship mean nothing to you?

I'll admit you had the best team, but not the best U-20 players.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Yeah, IF only our 18 year old wasn't leading his team in scoring, unlike you're 18 year olds who are projected to be pretty good when they one day make the NHL.

Well you're right, America takes the title.

Kessel will be more than pretty good. You may also want to take note of their top 3 defencemen Erik Johnson, Jack Johnson and Brian Lee. They're gonna be big time blueliners in the NHL.

 

[sunb]

So they managed to win 1 tournament 10 years ago? Oh, and the junior one, okay 2, but thats not even best on best.

Canada is still producing far more top level talent in every facet of the game, offense, defense, goaltending. The US is the top rated team because Canada's best players are too good. And after Kessel, who is their phenom of sorts?

You're being ignorant and completely confused about the point of this entire thread.

The US isn't on the same level of Canada yet and cannot testify to their greatness with medals and honors. However, this thread isn't about current accolades and past accomplishments but the USA's latent potential and their ability to match and surpass Canada's output in the future.

Guys like Roenick, Tkachuk, Chelios, Weight et al are a step below Sakic, Iginla, Yzerman et al but if you look at the future, the US has elite youths like Kessel, Johnson (Erik), Johnson (Jack), Parise, Ryan, Wheeler, Schremp, Suter, Lee and a cupboard full of other guys. The key is that USA hockey is developing and catching up at a torrid rate. In 10 years, the US should have a firm grip of #2 above Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic and Slovakia. Maybe in 30 years, they may challenge Canada for the #1 spot. Maybe 100 years later, they may surpass Canada. Nothing is infinite in this discussion.

With the arrival of Gretzky in LA, a huge US market was opened up. A generation of players picked up hockey and are now breaking into the NHL. Those players are the various youngsters I've named above. With Gretzky's arrival in LA in 1993, it must have had an impact in this generation of super prospects (Suter, Lee, Johnson (Erik), Johnson (Jack), Skille, Kessel, Parise, Wheeler, Schremp, Ryan, Kesler, Montoya, et al).

As more and more markets become opened up through burgeoning NHL franchises in places like Columbus, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta and other places, more and more American players will try hockey. The population of the US is tens times bigger than that of Canada. If you think critically, it will only be a matter of time before more Americans grow accustomed to hockey. And if hockey is such an extraordinary game as all of us seem to believe - the kids in the US will start to play more hockey. If that is the case, can you envision the possibilties of USA hockey by 2020? By 2050? By 2100?

 

[Drake1588]

Well, it's certainly a possibility, simply as a numbers game. It's possible for the same reasons that China will probably become a power in world soccer in the future, due chiefly to population. If a country that is massively populated (and with the ample economic resources to build the requisite infrastructure) starts to take a lasting interest in a sport, then simply as a function of numbers it stands to reason that its talent factories should begin churning out players. A country of 300 million can quite conceivably rise to a level commensurate with a country of 30 million in producing players. The level of the sport's popularity will never be as high, but a tenfold population advantage can make up for that over time.

I don't think it's likely to happen soon, though. Refer to the same philosophy behind expansion: the NHL is less concerned with immediate returns from expansion, but rather with fostering a fan base out of the children who grow up with hockey teams in their states across the US, who then have children themselves and teach their own kids to play hockey, to watch hockey and to love hockey from a young age.

A number of friends of mine in Maryland and Virginia were talking just this week about their experiences over the holidays in enrolling their own young kids in ice skating programs, debating the right pace to take (e.g. whether three years old was the right age, etc.) and already trying to figure out the right time to buy hockey equipment. I'm a native Montrealer, but these are locals, whose parents have always been Redskins fans, college football and basketball fans. Things are changing here, straddling the Mason-Dixon line, in more places than people realize. This is being repeated across the country. Hockey programs in Texas stemming from the Dallas Stars' success are well documented. Obviously this is gradual growth and still in pockets only, but it's certainly an ongoing phenomenon.

I think this is a valid possibility, but it's a question of decades. Certainly not before ten, and probably fifteen to twenty years. Still, Canada need hardly worry about a 'talent pool gap' any time soon.

 

[Mr. Hab]

When will USA surpass CANADA?

When USA and CANADA unite as ONE country!!
Everything will be American currency (or Canadian currency!! ) and we (together in unison! ) will be a bigger hockey force to be reckoned with!! ha ha!!

How do you like that for an idea?!!








P.S.: no but seriously...I'd take the Johnsons, the Kessels, Chris Bourque, etc...anyday on my TEAM CANADA!! Now if we can only get some paperwork done around here!! (for new passports!).

 

[Nich]

never

 

[Rogalo]

I think people are forgetting how good a team Czechoslovakia would be today.

Here we go again...
It would not be that good, trust me. The tension between Slovaks and Czechs would be too big. Plus IMO it would be more political then ever before. Players would have been picked not beacuse of their quality, but nationality. And that would lead to disasterous results... And as Michael Corleone would say: OVER!!!

 

[Rogalo]

...sweden is also high on it, but soccer is their main thing.

And what a great team they have too Ibrahimovič is GOD

 

[Rogalo]

Maybe in 30 years, they may challenge Canada for the #1 spot. Maybe 100 years later, they may surpass Canada. Nothing is infinite in this discussion.

And maybe in 200 years my great great great great grandson is gonna be born and he´ll be better than Jagr

 

[therealdeal]

With the arrival of Gretzky in LA, a huge US market was opened up. A generation of players picked up hockey and are now breaking into the NHL. Those players are the various youngsters I've named above. With Gretzky's arrival in LA in 1993, it must have had an impact in this generation of super prospects (Suter, Lee, Johnson (Erik), Johnson (Jack), Skille, Kessel, Parise, Wheeler, Schremp, Ryan, Kesler, Montoya, et al).

As more and more markets become opened up through burgeoning NHL franchises in places like Columbus, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta and other places, more and more American players will try hockey. The population of the US is tens times bigger than that of Canada. If you think critically, it will only be a matter of time before more Americans grow accustomed to hockey. And if hockey is such an extraordinary game as all of us seem to believe - the kids in the US will start to play more hockey. If that is the case, can you envision the possibilties of USA hockey by 2020? By 2050? By 2100?

Would you like me to name players that are Canadian and are already better than those of the Americans you name, becuase I would be happy to do so.

Canada is increasing its ability to develope higher end talent as well, thats just how coaching is going now, the way these kids are learning to play hockey is nothing like it was 20 years ago, and thats why they're producing better talent, because everyone is.

 

[Jagr314]

I would have thought never, but once another nation picks up the sport who's to say how long before they will be better. I'll bet the people in the U.S 50 years ago would have never thought that countries like Cuba, and the Dominican Republic could field better baseball teams than the U.S. With that I don't think that a country's population holds any weight in this argument. Even the last Olympics when the U.S. did not win the gold medal in basketball, I was floored. Even though we didn't have our best, I thought we had enough. Other countries are simply catching up. So, I don't think that it is out of the realm of possibility that the U.S. could catch up.

 

[VOB]

I would have thought never, but once another nation picks up the sport who's to say how long before they will be better. I'll bet the people in the U.S 50 years ago would have never thought that countries like Cuba, and the Dominican Republic could field better baseball teams than the U.S. With that I don't think that a country's population holds any weight in this argument. Even the last Olympics when the U.S. did not win the gold medal in basketball, I was floored. Even though we didn't have our best, I thought we had enough. Other countries are simply catching up. So, I don't think that it is out of the realm of possibility that the U.S. could catch up.

Yes, other countries have certainly made gains on us, but I still say we are the best in baseball and basketball.

As for hockey, demographics just aren't there. As long as hockey remains an affluent "white" sport in this country, the game will never open up to the masses.

As for soccer, of course we are getting better and will soon challenge for world supremacy (watch out Brazil!) since there are now more kids playing that sport than there are playing any other sport in this country.

 

[Jagr314]

Yes, other countries have certainly made gains on us, but I still say we are the best in baseball and basketball.

As for hockey, demographics just aren't there. As long as hockey remains an affluent "white" sport in this country, the game will never open up to the masses.

As for soccer, of course we are getting better and will soon challenge for world supremacy (watch out Brazil!) since there are now more kids playing that sport than there are playing any other sport in this country.

I agree with you on the point that we are still better in those sports, but basketball will never be a cakewalk like before.

As far as the demographics go, I totally agree with you. If a guy like Jarome Iginla was in the U.S., I think it would do wonders for the intrest of African-Americans in the sport. I always get asked if there are any good black players in the league. I think he could generate some intrest in the black community.
As a black guy who lives in St. Louis, I always get asked questions how did I get into the sport. The answer is, "I don't know" but, I have loved it ever since I was 9. There aren't really any opportunities for people of lesser income to get into the sport and play, which was the reason I never got an opportunity to play as I when I was younger.

 

[greatwhite101*]

USA should surpass Sweds Czech and Russians first.
It's always quality not quantity.
Most of these stats are so one sided. How many US born players in US/Canada draft. heh

 

[Devonator]

Great conversation folks.....really enjoying some of the insight here!!

A few things...

Regarding minority interest in the States, is that really the key to opening the sport upto the masses when Americans of Euro descent still are about 70 percent of the population?? I agree, it would be great too see players like Inglina and others in predominant American markets as it certainly wouldn't hurt are profile in the Black and Hispanic communities..........but I do not see it as a key in no ways whether Black and Latino populations are not really interested though it sure wouldn't hurt!!

As someone stated earlier, in States where Hockey is popular, you have something like 40 million people living there and their purchasing power is strong......that alone is a large pool to draw on......

Right now Soccer/International Football is gaining ascendancy in America and she is becoming quickly a world power to be reckoned with .........who knows.....perhaps Hockey will also one day experience the same surge in popularity amongst the young and older......as others have pointed out, it certainly is getting more popular amongst the grassroots......I think what is holding it back completely is that Hockey is a bloody expensive sport too play and thus not accessible to everyone unlike Soccer or Basketball or even Baseball....

Also, someone had stated that Russia only has 70-80 thousand players registered???? Yikes........I wasn't aware it was so low?? And yet they produce top end talent that is easily as good as Canada's if not better!! Imagine if the Russians can straightened out their economy and reverse their declining population they would no doubt return to supremacy in this great sport!!!

 

[MetalMilitia]

With pretty much every good Canadian player playing in the USA, I am predicting a Canadian-to-American revolution. The Canadian players will settle down and have children in America, making them American obviously. They will then inherit their fathers genes and become great hockey players. Take the Bourque situation for example, Chris is American, and meanwhile Ray is Canadian.