When does it become too late?

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Even though the CBJ is the youngest team in the league, when does it become too late to fix and a rebuild becomes necessary? Next year is the last year of the contracts for Bob and Panarin. The prospect pool in Cleveland is running low and filled with tweeners and never will be's. There are still some prospects in junior and europe that may or may not ever turn into anything. The veteran inconsistency on this team this year is maddening.

Let alone never winning a playoff round, this organization has never made the playoffs 2 years in a row. The metro is tough and I think if they go on to miss the playoffs this year it would be catastrophic. They won early by relying on Bob and now Bob has gone cold so the recent blowout losses have been building to this point all year. I know the CBJ are still in the top 3 playoff spot right now but another 2 weeks of play like this will easily have this team on the outside looking in. The injuries cannot be an excuse. They guys who are missing did very little when they were healthy. Why can't this team put it together consistently?

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[Johansen2Foligno]

Did we not, just a few weeks ago, have a deep prospect pool which we were willing to dip into for Duchene?

I can never tell where we are at on this board.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I would imagine that there's a lot of nervousness among the front office and coaching staff right now.

The CBJ have given up 39 non shoot out goals in their last 10 games. That's not even close to cutting it in this league. They've been blown out 3 of their last 10 as well. The offense-save for the first line and flippin Milano-is in a deep slumber. 3 regulars are injured. Atkinson's injury appears to be one which will cleanly heal, but back issues are always scary, so who knows what going on with Wennberg and what his long and short term prognosis is. (I do hope his contract is insured). Dubinsky, who relies on a degree of intimidation in his game, had his face broken in a fight. Given his general decline anyway, this isn't the type of injury that should be taken lightly. It's like a jockey who gets injured for the first time. There's always the question of whether they will be scared to take the chances they need to in order to be effective.

Foligno is in head case territory right now. That's not good. Savard and JJ are, well, not good this year. Bob has become very ordinary of late-that's a nice way of putting it. There doesn't appear to be any help coming from the AHL to overcome the injuries. There simply aren't too many things to be positive about right now.

There seems to be so many holes in the good ship CBJ, that one new player won't keep the ship from taking on more water.

John Davidson has been running this franchise since 2012. Kekalainen will be celebrating his 5th anniversary here very shortly. This is their team. They've had a chance to build it, make trades, make decisions on long term player contracts and draft. The totality of their efforts to this point amounts to 3 playoff wins and no divisional championships. If the team tanks for the rest of the year, I think that ownership has to make some very serious decisions. Davidson will be 65 next month and if the team needs a rebuild do they want the same guy who's had 6 years to produce and who's at retirement age to have the ultimate authority over it?

Since the amazing 16 game winning streak came to an end almost a year ago, the Jackets have been a very mediocre hockey team. That's reality. I'm pretty sure that even the return of The Magnificent Ryan Murray-King of The Intangibles-won't stop the bleeding.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

There's no rebuilding necessary. As you said, they're the youngest team in the league.

This season is going nowhere. Even if they get in the playoffs it'll be a quick 5 or 6 game series. They're not very good.

They just need time. Let Bjorkstrand continue to develop. Hopefuly Murray returns from his yearly severe injury and continues to play well. Jones and Z only going to get better. Carlsson, Nutivaara, and Harrington all trying to take another step forward. And at forward we have a bunch of young guys who will still improve.

I think the team can be a contender in 2-3 years, assuming they keep Panarin and have a good goalie.

 

[DJA]

I think if the team misses the playoffs this year, it’s time to start asking serious questions about Jarmo/JD. The days of “one year in, next year out” of the playoffs aren’t gonna get it done. Especially at our payroll. I think JP would have to be getting ticked

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

There's no rebuilding necessary. As you said, they're the youngest team in the league.

This season is going nowhere. Even if they get in the playoffs it'll be a quick 5 or 6 game series. They're not very good.

They just need time. Let Bjorkstrand continue to develop. Hopefuly Murray returns from his yearly severe injury and continues to play well. Jones and Z only going to get better. Carlsson, Nutivaara, and Harrington all trying to take another step forward. And at forward we have a bunch of young guys who will still improve.

I think the team can be a contender in 2-3 years, assuming they keep Panarin and have a good goalie.

Taking 2-3 years to be a contender sounds like a rebuild to me even if it isn't a complete gutting of the team. The core seems to be there in Jones, Werenski, Dubois and Anderson. My issue is the guys we we've been fed were the core this year and recent years are regressing at a scary pace. The 2 long term contracts that were signed this off season were for 2 players who have been among the worst on the team. Cam can certainly recover but I don't know if Wennberg will ever be the player we keep being fed he can be.

The guys who should be leading this team are not and some of those guys are stuck here for a few more years.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Taking 2-3 years to be a contender sounds like a rebuild to me even if it isn't a complete gutting of the team. The core seems to be there in Jones, Werenski, Dubois and Anderson. My issue is the guys we we've been fed were the core this year and recent years are regressing at a scary pace. The 2 long term contracts that were signed this off season were for 2 players who have been among the worst on the team. Cam can certainly recover but I don't know if Wennberg will ever be the player we keep being fed he can be.

The guys who should be leading this team are not and some of those guys are stuck here for a few more years.

This team has several major problems:
1. Lack of high end skill. When they should have tanked for McEichel or Matthews they had late season winning streaks that moved them back in the draft. This has been the story here for years. They got lucky and got Werenski but there is a big difference between Werenski and McDavid or PLD and Matthews/Laine. The Jackets have a long history of winning in spring when they would have been better off losing.

2. Because of the lack of high end skill, when some of their more skilled players are injured like Atkinson and Wennberg they have no margin for error. Tortorella's talk of checking is really a way of saying they need to slow their opponents down and grind because they don't have the skill to match up with a team like Tampa or Pittsburgh.

3. Bob has gone cold.

No team is going to trade the Jackets the skill they need to fix this. As Cyclone pointed out it's a one line team with one defensive pairing.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Bob is still 7th in GAA in the NHL.

Our offense is offensively ghastly: Top points Pararin ranks T34th in NHL. Next two (Anderson/Bjorkstrand) are both tied for 106th.

Leading goal scorer Anderson is T43rd in NHL.

Injuries have nothing to do with the rankings. Atkinson, Wennberg and Dubinsky would not have improved on these had they been healthy.

The architect of this offensively-challenged team needs some scrutiny.

 

[mikeyp24]

People are way to easily effected by losing streaks and how many points we put up. You can be a good team and not have huge scoring you can win by defense and low scoring. We have always been a 2-0 kinda team. The injuries are killing us right now. The players we have out are way too important to the team. The box score might not show it but watching the game will. With those guys on the ice we are 4 times the team we are now.

This isn't a front office problem this is a problem that can't just be a simple fix by trading the future to save 1 season. Getting rid of the best front office we have ever had especially as far as GM goes would be beyond stupid... don't go overboard because terrible health problems that can't be foreseen. 1 or 2 guys a year you can have depth to replace but 4 long term issues plus a 5th for a few games here and there... there is no team in the league that can handle that. The pens are the 2 time returning champs that you guys like to compare us too and we are still having a better season then them... let' save the fear of being garbage until we are at least 95% healthy...

 

[EspenK]

While I don't think a total rebuild is necessary substantial changes need to be made imo.

If the season doesn't turn around immediately I think the following moves should be made:

Trade JJ at the deadline of possible. Better than the 4th rounder we'll get for his rights. No way should he be re-signed.

Trade Jenner if/whenever possible. I wouldn't re-sign him for much more than what he is making and even then I'm not sure.

Trade Dubinsky as soon as his NTC is modified or sooner if he will waive.

Try to trade Foligno. If he won't waive giv ehim one more season then buy him out unless he reverts to 50 points.

Trade Savard.

Use the players, picks, prospects and cap space to try and sign/trade for a top 6 F.

Consider replacing Torts if he doesn't change his assistant coaches. Give Torts an ultimatum to play Milano and Bjorkstrand in top 6 roles for the rest of the season or amf. If there is any potential for either of them it will never be discovered the way they are being used.

This team is not a SC contender unless Bob stands on his head. Veteran leadership has been non-existent.

No untouchables save Werenski, Jones, Panarin & probably Anderson.

Maybe a complete rebuild is called for.

 

[Cowumbus]

I agree, trade Johnson and get picks.

 

[MoeBartoli]

While I don't think a total rebuild is necessary substantial changes need to be made imo.

If the season doesn't turn around immediately I think the following moves should be made:

Trade JJ at the deadline of possible. Better than the 4th rounder we'll get for his rights. No way should he be re-signed.

Trade Jenner if/whenever possible. I wouldn't re-sign him for much more than what he is making and even then I'm not sure.

Trade Dubinsky as soon as his NTC is modified or sooner if he will waive.

Try to trade Foligno. If he won't waive giv ehim one more season then buy him out unless he reverts to 50 points.

Trade Savard.

Use the players, picks, prospects and cap space to try and sign/trade for a top 6 F.

Consider replacing Torts if he doesn't change his assistant coaches. Give Torts an ultimatum to play Milano and Bjorkstrand in top 6 roles for the rest of the season or amf. If there is any potential for either of them it will never be discovered the way they are being used.

This team is not a SC contender unless Bob stands on his head. Veteran leadership has been non-existent.

No untouchables save Werenski, Jones, Panarin & probably Anderson.

Maybe a complete rebuild is called for.

Wow! This post is uncannily aligned with my thinking. In fact had i posted, it would have read pretty much the same. The only variances are that I would want to retain Coach Shaw and while I would try like crazy to trade Foligno, I'm not sure I have it in me for another buyout. Good post, EspenK.

 

[Jackets16]

Wow. This thread is just so bad. We are one of the youngest teams and in a playoff position despite many injuries. It is funny how quick people forget how bad we used to be. There are few teams I would trade ours for.

Rebuild? NO!
Don't make the playoffs = Failure? NO!
Need to rethink our GM if we don't make the playoffs? NO!

What we need to do is get healthy and trade a few of our older, more expensive players.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Out of curiosity: what do you expect Foligno and Dubinsky to bring back?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Wow. This thread is just so bad. We are one of the youngest teams and in a playoff position despite many injuries. It is funny how quick people forget how bad we used to be. There are few teams I would trade ours for.

Rebuild? NO!
Don't make the playoffs = Failure? NO!
Need to rethink our GM if we don't make the playoffs? NO!

What we need to do is get healthy and trade a few of our older, more expensive players.

Who are these players to be traded? Here's what I see:

Our GM signed Dubinsky to a contract that had a high predictability of going bad. Players like Dubinsky don't age well. Now he could only be traded with heavy retention and/or a bad player/contact coming back.

Foligno is an enigma. He had 26 goals last season and 31 three seasons ago. 3 seasons ago he was 9th in NHL scoring. I think he may not be emotionally suited for being Captain. He takes losing too much to heart and it affects his overall play. He looks fine physically and his advanced stats are OK. He could be interesting trade bait for a player who's gone sour with his current team.

Johnson is likely gone after this season. If, by some miracle, the CBJ are in contention around the trade deadline, I think he stays and walks as a UFA. I don't think that he will bring much in trade.

Atkinson has a NMC for the next 2.5 seasons, so he's here regardless. While he's a top 20 or so goal scorer over the last 4 seasons, he may have peaked and this could turn out to be an exceptionally brutal contract.

Savard has 3 years after this season left on his moderate ($4.25m) deal. He's not that old and might be able to be moved, but I doubt much would come back the CBJ way.

Wennberg, though not old, was signed to a deal which the CBJ didn't have to do. He had 4 years of UFA left when Jarmo signed him to a 6 year deal. Assuming his back isn't a long term issue, he probably has the most trade value of any long term-contracted CBJ. It might be necessary to trade him in a multi player deal so a Dubinsky might be gotten rid of-though I'm sure it would require salary retention.

It looks to me like the CBJ are stuck like chuck with these players. They aren't a highly marketable group and they make a lot of money. Jarmo had best hope that either Dubinsky or Foligno turns it around and that both Atkinson and Wennberg produce like they were expected to prior to signing their big deals. If these guys continue to give sub par performances, Jarmo should rightly expect to be shown the door. He made his bed and he may have to sleep in it.

 

[Cowumbus]

Out of curiosity: what do you expect Foligno and Dubinsky to bring back?

Capspace.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Capspace.

I have a hard time believing that. No offense

 

[Cowumbus]

I have a hard time believing that. No offense

Foligno + Jenner, Foligno + Johnson for 1 player.

 

[EspenK]

Out of curiosity: what do you expect Foligno and Dubinsky to bring back?

I don't really care. Like PB said cap space if nothing else. Either one could bring a 2nd and maybe a prospect. Depends on when the deal is made and with whom it is made. If nothing else I see it as adding by subtraction. I've had enough of the "heart & soul of the team" bs with both of them. Same with the "youngest team in the league" schtick. It ain't the young guys who are the problem.

 

[99 CBJ]

I think the front office is doing a fine job. Drafting, scouting and development have been good while some trades have been questionable. I see the problem as coaching as in Torts, during our run last year we were skating the puck into the zone and attacking the net and scoring at will. Then after the new year we reverted to dump and chase (just get it deep) was the saying. As the playoffs started Torts went to his USA philosophy of just get it deep and pound them and we saw how that worked. Now this year with the most talent we have ever had in Cbus he went back to Just Get The Puck Deep (how many times have you heard that from everyone) and if you can get the puck back just cycle it in the corner until you loose it. Now today it comes out that he is falling back to his old days of block shots and just play D until the other team makes a mistake. He is reverting back into the old Torts.

I think Torts came here with an open mind and a new outlook that was taking us in the right direction but he has backed off because of his lack of trust in players. How many times in the last 2 years did he say I just have to let these kids play and not get down on them for a mistake, I have not heard that this year just "I Don't Have the Trust". I think if someone has to go it may be Torts, his clock has been ticking and time maybe running out.

 

[Nanabijou]

Geez, hit a slump and we're talking rebuild?

I'm much more patient than many posting on here. Last year, we got hot in December/January and then slumped at the end of the year/playoffs. This year, I'm hopeful that the slump has come early, they'll figure it out and start to peak later in the year.

As for deadline trades, I am fine with trading JJ at the deadline for picks. I hope he isn't going to be resigned and if Murray is back to 100% by then, it might be addition by subtraction. I am also open to bringing in a stop-gap center that can plug the hole left by injury and Wennberg crapping the bed this year. Brassard would be fine, if the price is something like Jenner or Milano plus a non-first round pick.

I'm as disappointed with Fligs as anyone here, but a buyout isn't an option. There's no way anyone could expect the owner to sign off on that. I don't think a trade market for him is there for anything right now, so we just have to hope there is some kind of resurgence. I am open to stripping to C off Fligs at some point, maybe end of season. He might need to simplify and just focus on his game without worrying about being 'the leader'.

Other than fine-tuning changes like what I mentioned, I don't see a major shakedown coming. Try to stay in the mix as players come back from injury, and then make a push at the end.

 

[Maylo]

If Wennberg back is hurt again after short streches of games when he returns, do you put him on LTIR?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

This is not just a slump. They've no played well all year and have been bailed out by goaltending in alot of wins. Now they're not getting their goaltending, and the rest of the teams game has fallen apart around it. The injuries have a part of this, but this has been brewing since October.

 

[blahblah]

It's taken a while for the boards to start to recognize our issues, but rebuild? Now we've swung too far the other direction.

One of the issues with this team that is that we've invested too much money in players that we shouldn't have, ie they shouldn't be considered core players. Having said that we've got the pieces on this team to be one of the better teams in the league.

It was laughable when people we're saying that we have a better shot to win the Cup than Chicago. We have to be able to look at the players and the team objectively. We just seem to be too focused on what is happening game to game, you know riding the ups and the downs.

 

[EDM]

I* kind of agree with Blah. We have quite a bit of young, skilled talent on this team: Z, Jones, Nutti, Bjork, Bread, Sony. PLD, Andy. And I think Cam is still a solid player who is having a bad, injury prone year. Even Nick has a couple of 20+ goal seasons on his belt. Calvert is a very good 3rd line player. So there is talent there.

But I have not seen any creative ideas out of this coaching staff. This team plays much slower this year than it did last year. They are not quick to the puck and they lose puck battles constantly, are out of position when they do lose possession. the coaching this year has been deplorable. Maybe moving away from "safe is death" which relies on Jones and Z to be extra forwards and trying to develop a coherent offensive approach may get things back on track, But right now, to me that coaching this year has been deplorable.