Speculation: when do canucks hit bottom?

[rune74]

It's just as likely that Benning himself has changed his mind on things as to say it is the owners.

That is also a possibility. Something none of us will most likely ever know.

However, what they are doing now is good so I'm hopeful.

 

[y2kcanucks]

It's possible, it's not out of the realm of believable with the history of our owners as well. I think you clung to the story that Gillis couldn't trade Kesler because the owners were not on board, which proves that the owners were not in favor of the rebuild.

I was just stating that it is possible that the ownership was not on board a rebuild, but now is. I think the moves over the last month show that they now have a different mandate. It's safe to say the majority of their moves since embracing the rebuild have been quite good.

You could make the case that the GM/President could have defied the owners and came out to the public with not agreeing with him. I think that is a bit far fetched if you want to keep your job. It's not like their are a ton of NHL GM jobs out there.

Except you're missing the point.

If you're going to come out and state something like "finally Benning gets to make the moves that he wanted to when he got here" suggesting that he wanted to rebuild when he got here, then it's up to you to provide some evidence that Benning actually wanted to rebuild and was prevented by the owners. Just because the owners wanted to push for the playoffs doesn't mean that Benning wanted to rebuild and was prevented from doing so. I think it's more likely that Benning shared the same mindset at ownership and believed he could turn the team around quickly (as he even stated).

So I ask you again. Please provide a shred of evidence that Jim Benning came in here wanting to rebuild the team.

 

[rune74]

Except you're missing the point.

If you're going to come out and state something like "finally Benning gets to make the moves that he wanted to when he got here" suggesting that he wanted to rebuild when he got here, then it's up to you to provide some evidence that Benning actually wanted to rebuild and was prevented by the owners. Just because the owners wanted to push for the playoffs doesn't mean that Benning wanted to rebuild and was prevented from doing so. I think it's more likely that Benning shared the same mindset at ownership and believed he could turn the team around quickly (as he even stated).

So I ask you again. Please provide a shred of evidence that Jim Benning came in here wanting to rebuild the team.

When did I ever say that? Your making up things now to make your point.

I think that he agreed to what the owners wanted to get the job...I bet he believed he could do it too. I don't think the rebuild option was even on the table.

 

[Ryp37]

Or maybe the fan backlash at how horrible the first 3 years were convinced the organization to change directions

Until there's proof we can sit here and talk theories all day

 

[Shareefruck]

How does that tell you that the owners didn't tell them not to rebuild? You are right they didn't talk about a rebuild, but they wouldn't if the owners said they didn't want that.

He also wouldn't come out and say no, we want to rebuild but you know the owners....they would be out of a job so fast.

This should be fairly obvious. Now, that doesn't make it what happened for sure, but it also doesn't say it never happened. I bet until these guys are gone and when their confidentiality agreement is ended we will never know what happened.

The thing that I find particularly questionable about the Benning being handcuffed narrative is that the mandate to compete right away and make the playoffs was obvious from the moment that Benning was hired-- he couldn't have possibly been blind-sighted by it and end up stuck in a bad situation that he didn't want to be in.

The fact that he actively agreed to sign with the team knowing that this was the direction that ownership expected the team to face is sufficient reason to believe that Benning didn't vehemently disagree with the idea of competing now, and in fact thought it was at least a somewhat sensible one.

This is a good enough reason to assume this for now, and there seems to be no reason to think otherwise.

GMs with job security generally do not agree to jobs where they're told ahead of time that they're going to be doing things the opposite of the way that they want to do them. If that was the situation and he agreed to it, he would be dumber than we thought.

There simply was not a long enough period of uncertainty about the team's direction for the idea of him being handcuffed to make any sense. It's been compete compete compete from the moment he was hired.

 

[krutovsdonut]

it really doesn't matter whether the day he was hired benning sent a registered letter with a wax seal to price waterhouse to hold in trust confirming he really wanted to rebuild all along or not.

the only real question is how is he doing at it.

 

[Lemmiwinks]

The next two years will be worse imo. Really, until the day we receive a top two talent at the draft (which could take a while given our luck at the lottery), it'll be hard to say that we're on the upswing.

 

[Peen]

Does rock bottom mean our own worst season? Or the lowest possible finish?

Because the avalanche have the worst owners in the league and a terrible management group, and they should finish last again

 

[arttk]

Or maybe the fan backlash at how horrible the first 3 years were convinced the organization to change directions

Until there's proof we can sit here and talk theories all day

Well, I don’t see that much backlash right now and we just finished 28th and 29th in consecutive years.

 

[Hit the post]

Well, I don’t see that much backlash right now and we just finished 28th and 29th in consecutive years.

I'm guessing the fans were willing to give Benning a "mulligan" for the 28th place finish based on the previous season?

This past season? Who the heck knows....

 

[Ryp37]

Well, I don�t see that much backlash right now and we just finished 28th and 29th in consecutive years.

I was making up theories ala rune

Gotta imagine ticket sales dropping didn't go unnoticed

 

[rune74]

The thing that I find particularly questionable about the Benning being handcuffed narrative is that the mandate to compete right away and make the playoffs was obvious from the moment that Benning was hired-- he couldn't have possibly been blind-sighted by it and end up stuck in a bad situation that he didn't want to be in.

The fact that he actively agreed to sign with the team knowing that this was the direction that ownership expected the team to face is sufficient reason to believe that Benning didn't vehemently disagree with the idea of competing now, and in fact thought it was at least a somewhat sensible one.

This is a good enough reason to assume this for now, and there seems to be no reason to think otherwise.

GMs with job security generally do not agree to jobs where they're told ahead of time that they're going to be doing things the opposite of the way that they want to do them. If that was the situation and he agreed to it, he would be dumber than we thought.

There simply was not a long enough period of uncertainty about the team's direction for the idea of him being handcuffed to make any sense. It's been compete compete compete from the moment he was hired.

You are offfered a lot of money to take a job, they want you to compete? You try and compete. I'm sure he was told that when he was hired. So, in real world would you turn down a job that wanted you to do that? This is a weird mindset to say turn down a high paying job because of ownerships desire to compete. This isn't la la land where you pick and chose head GM positions if there are no other ones available.

 

[arttk]

I was making up theories ala rune

Gotta imagine ticket sales dropping didn't go unnoticed

I mean we are in Vancouver, fans don’t get outwardly pissed until we lose a SCF. If we suck, majority of the fans just won’t bother and they will always come back when the team improves.

I think the general fans were getting bored of the sedin style at Gillis’s last season so pushing for a refresh wouldn’t have alienated fans, especially since McDacid, Matthews, Eichel was around the corner. If you are projected to decline, not a bad idea to tank when a generational talent is around.

 

[Hit the post]

You are offfered a lot of money to take a job, they want you to compete? You try and compete. I'm sure he was told that when he was hired. So, in real world would you turn down a job that wanted you to do that? This is a weird mindset to say turn down a high paying job because of ownerships desire to compete. This isn't la la land where you pick and chose head GM positions if there are no other ones available.

You might not tend to get the more highly qualified/experienced NHL GMs that way. Agree, that if have no experience as the (head) GM, you'll likely take the job no matter what. To bad the three stooges didn't 'learn on the job' on some other team before being hired here.

I mean we are in Vancouver, fans don’t get outwardly pissed until we lose a SCF.

or a G&R concert.

 

[CanaFan]

You are offfered a lot of money to take a job, they want you to compete? You try and compete. I'm sure he was told that when he was hired. So, in real world would you turn down a job that wanted you to do that? This is a weird mindset to say turn down a high paying job because of ownerships desire to compete. This isn't la la land where you pick and chose head GM positions if there are no other ones available.

Well the reality is likely more complicated and nuanced than that. You don't hire a highly skilled - in the Aquilini's minds - person just to be an order taker. Not for Executive positions at least. We aren't talking about a Sanwdwich Artist at Subway. The hiring process was much more likely a series of discussions between the owners and Benning to discuss philosophies, styles, potential strategies, etc. If both sides see a fit in terms of goals and perspectives then there is a match. And if not then it is in the interests of both parties not to get into a situation where they know they can't succeed in.

You seem to think Benning just walked in, nodded his head, and said he had no ideas of his own outside of what the owners wanted him to do.

But now that I think about it that does sound somewhat like Benning so maybe you're onto something.

 

[me2]

You are offfered a lot of money to take a job, they want you to compete? You try and compete. I'm sure he was told that when he was hired. So, in real world would you turn down a job that wanted you to do that? This is a weird mindset to say turn down a high paying job because of ownerships desire to compete. This isn't la la land where you pick and chose head GM positions if there are no other ones available.

Weak willed toady he may be, but his trades were still made by him. Aquilini may have set the direction but he made the moves.

 

[rune74]

Well the reality is likely more complicated and nuanced than that. You don't hire a highly skilled - in the Aquilini's minds - person just to be an order taker. Not for Executive positions at least. We aren't talking about a Sanwdwich Artist at Subway. The hiring process was much more likely a series of discussions between the owners and Benning to discuss philosophies, styles, potential strategies, etc. If both sides see a fit in terms of goals and perspectives then there is a match. And if not then it is in the interests of both parties not to get into a situation where they know they can't succeed in.

You seem to think Benning just walked in, nodded his head, and said he had no ideas of his own outside of what the owners wanted him to do.

But now that I think about it that does sound somewhat like Benning so maybe you're onto something.

This was pretty waeak...you implied a lot into what I said....I'm sure they talked about what they wanted to do. I never said they just walked in and nodded their heads.

I think ownership had no intention of talking rebuild until they couldn't compete anymore. Until the owners were on top of a rebuild then it would never happen. Regardless, we are in a rebuild now, and at least it is looking good so far. At the end of the day, it may be late but its what we need.

 

[y2kcanucks]

When did I ever say that? Your making up things now to make your point.

I think that he agreed to what the owners wanted to get the job...I bet he believed he could do it too. I don't think the rebuild option was even on the table.

Maybe if you're going to jump into the middle of a conversation it would be good to read up on the history of that conversation? Might make it less confusing. Go back and re-read the post I was responding to when you decided to quote me.

For the second bit, yes, I believe Benning really did think he could turn this around. Which is why I don't think he should be employed here any longer. He was so far off base, and was so poor in his execution of his plan that I have zero confidence in him not screwing this team up for the next 10 years,

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I can't imagine things getting much worse than last year, but I see no real rays of hope for next year, outside of the departure of Willie... and I don't imagine any of our young guys will be ready to save our hash the year after either.

Hopefully by '19-'20 we will start reaping the rewards of our high picks... if we
a. pick well
b. get lucky
c. develop well
d. gut the head office

 

[CanaFan]

This was pretty waeak...you implied a lot into what I said....I'm sure they talked about what they wanted to do. I never said they just walked in and nodded their heads.

I think ownership had no intention of talking rebuild until they couldn't compete anymore. Until the owners were on top of a rebuild then it would never happen. Regardless, we are in a rebuild now, and at least it is looking good so far. At the end of the day, it may be late but its what we need.

Eh, you were basically creating a storyline where Benning walked up and said "I need a job, what do you need me to do?" You are absolving him of any culpability in the decision to delay a rebuild by saying "well what could he do, not take the job?" when in fact he likely only was offered the job if he was already of a similar mind as the owners.

Whatever is happening now does not absolve him and the owners of the fact that they wasted three years and set this franchise back with their ill conceived attempts to "retool on the fly".

 

[Hit the post]

I can't imagine things getting much worse than last year

EXACTLY what I said at this time last year.

 

[rune74]

Eh, you were basically creating a storyline where Benning walked up and said "I need a job, what do you need me to do?" You are absolving him of any culpability in the decision to delay a rebuild by saying "well what could he do, not take the job?" when in fact he likely only was offered the job if he was already of a similar mind as the owners.

Whatever is happening now does not absolve him and the owners of the fact that they wasted three years and set this franchise back with their ill conceived attempts to "retool on the fly".

Without ownership blessing a rebuild doesn't happen...he accepte dthe job knowing that ownership didn't want a rebuild so he is guilty of doing that. I'm sure they asked if he thought he could do a rebuild on the fly and he was part of that.

Not sure what the obsession is with this. At the end of the day if the owners didn't want him to do what he did they would have fired him...I'm surprised they are ok with a rebuild now, someone had to convince them of that.

 

[oyvey]

In terms of optimism, the lowest point of the valley, I think they're past it.

This year will be bad. They could still finish with fewer points that last year, but the future likely wouldn't feel as dim as it did at the same time the year prior. The worst case scenario is that they're not deep enough into the basement near the deadline, and Benning trades picks or prospects to upgrade. That would be regressive. But if this team is as bad as it should be, we should get another top-5ish pick and continue to get closer to not being an absolute joke.

 

[Fatass]

We already hit rock bottom... now we just keep slamming into it hoping to push the bar down lower...

Really it all depends when we get good management.

Let's wallow in the muck for a few years collecting top five talent. JB has to hit on a couple elite guys in those years, doesn't he? Then we can climb back into the middle, like we (seemingly) have always done

 

[Breakers]

Let's wallow in the muck for a few years collecting top five talent. JB has to hit on a couple elite guys in those years, doesn't he? Then we can climb back into the middle, like we (seemingly) have always done

He's not doing so well in that department