What's your opinion on the possibility of both McDavid + Drai being hart finalists this season?

[bobholly39]

So we all can see how badly they're torching the league this season. As of this posting:

McDavid 69 points in 41 games, on pace for 94 points. 137 point pace in 82 games.
Draisaitl 61 points in 41 games, on pace for 83 points. 121 points pace in 82 games.
Next is Kane at 51 points in 41 games, on pace for 69 points. 101 point pace in 82 games.

We have some goalies doing well too (like Vasi, but he plays for Tampa and I can't imagine that gets him hart love) and some D, but nothing too historic to warrant serious hart contention, an award that is often dominated by forwards. And McDrai so far are leaps and bounds above other forwards for offensive production.

If you looked at this scoring race ignoring the team they played for - I think majority would agree there would be a 99.9% likelihood that McDavid and Drai are both hart finalists based on these numbers so far.

However - as we all know, they're teammates.

Last season - even though everyone knows McDavid is "better" - Drai deservedly won the hart. Simply put he had the better season, and deserved it. What was significant though is McDavid wasn't a finalist, finishing a more distant 5th, even though last year he was #2 to Drai in the scoring race.

However - last year a few other players were having exceptional seasons. Less so this season. Kane looked great for a while, but he's down to a pace of 101 points in 82 games now. Last season 3-4 other players were pacing for 110+. Hawks are also out of a playoff spot now. Mack/Panarin/Matthews are all having very strong seasons, but they have all missed games, and are also a long way behind Drai + McDavid in the scoring race.

For a bit of recent historical perspective - teammates being finalist for the hart does happen.

2001 - Lemieux and Jagr both top 3. In 1996, both top 4.

Crosby/Malkin never did manage to be both top 3- but it's a bit different than McDrai, as Crosby/Malkin never seemed to have a truly great season at the same time. If one was great, the other a bit less so, or the other was injured. Both McDrai are having great seasons at the same time this year.

So - McDavid + Drai, both hart finalists this season, what's your opinion? Will it happen? Should it happen?

Click to read more...

 

[Voight]

McDavid is clearly the MVP of that team and the straw that stirs the drink. I don't meant to diminish LD's play, but he nor the team wouldn't be as good if McDavid wasn't there.

Went with McDavid being a finalist, and he'll probably win it too.

 

[NyQuil]

I think a lot of voters will spread their votes around the various divisions given the lack of inter-divisional play, and with Matthews, McDavid and Draisaitl in the division, I think they will split a lot of the votes reserved for North division players.

I would expect to see McDavid first, Matthews second and Draisaitl third among North division players, and I doubt that they will make up the 1-2-3 spots in total votes.

 

[BlueBaron]

The Hart isn't a scoring prize. I don't really understand what makes one teams scoring leader more important to his team than another. I'd like to see it going back to people who make broader contributions.

I guess it used to be an award for guys who drag their teams into the playoffs on their own which certainly this duo does but it wasnt much of an accomplishment this year and obviously they are helping each other. How can I be most valuable to my team in the league and maybe I'm not even be the most valuable on my team, a bit silly.

Not a trophy I care about and one of them will win it.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

The Hart isn't a scoring prize. I don't really understand what makes one teams scoring leader more important to his team than another. I'd like to see it going back to people who make broader contributions.

I guess it used to be an award for guys who drag their teams into the playoffs on their own which certainly this duo does but it wasnt much of an accomplishment this year and obviously they are helping each other. How can I be most valuable to my team in the league and maybe I'm not even be the most valuable on my team, a bit silly.

Not a trophy I care about and one of them will win it.

I think I know your answer, but who do you think deserves it?

 

[BlueBaron]

I think I know your answer, but who do you think deserves it?

I doubt you do, you are probably just stereotyping me.

I'm leaning toward Chychrun if Arizona make the playoffs.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Depends on your criteria.

I look for actual MVP whereas others vote Best Player.

 

[Canovin]

Just like Shaq and Kobe in their dynasty days. Both deserved to be finalists

 

[KlefDown]

I doubt you do, you are probably just stereotyping me.

I'm leaning toward Chychrun if Arizona make the playoffs.

LMAO

not even the most valuable player on his team but go on, entertain us on why you think so

 

[filinski77]

I don't think it would be that crazy realistically. Drai is currently 2nd in points and 3rd in goals. That makes him more valuable to his team than most other top candidates, regardless of if McDavid is even more valuable to the Oilers.

The hard part is separating out how much their contributions individually are from feeding off each other. Draisaitl has contributed on 55% of McDavids points, and McDavid on 63% of Draisaitls points. If Draisaitl is actually the 2nd best player in the league (as many Oilers fans would state), then you can't deny that both players totals are inflated from playing with the #1/#2 best player in the league.

Now that wouldn't be enough to close the gap on McDavid, as he is clearly ahead of everyone else, but it might be enough to close the gap for Draisaitl, and have him not be a finalist IMO.

 

[BlueBaron]

LMAO

not even the most valuable player on his team but go on, entertain us on why you think so

Why would I respond to such a rude post by indulging you?

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

McDavid and Drai aren't torching the league. They are torching the other 6 teams in Canada, and heavily padding their stats against Ottawa (each with 21 points in 9 games). Are we supposed to believe they'd be replicating these numbers in any of the other divisions?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

The Hart isn't a scoring prize. I don't really understand what makes one teams scoring leader more important to his team than another. I'd like to see it going back to people who make broader contributions.

I guess it used to be an award for guys who drag their teams into the playoffs on their own which certainly this duo does but it wasnt much of an accomplishment this year and obviously they are helping each other. How can I be most valuable to my team in the league and maybe I'm not even be the most valuable on my team, a bit silly.

Not a trophy I care about and one of them will win it.

I tend to agree, but at the same time it’s hard to argue oilers being a playoff team without Mcdavid , if you drop draisitl out of question because he plays w/ Mcdavid then I have a hard time including Mack/rant, matthews/marner, generally speaking the Marchand line in Boston but I think Marchand has separated himself from the other 2 this year to be in running.

I don’t mind the chychurn shout out, he’s been excellent.... to me a guy like kaprizov kinda fills in those boxes. if I had to pick 3 today I likely go

mcdavid kane hedman

If I don’t go dmen on 3rd spot I prob go Marchand

 

[bobholly39]

Depends on your criteria.

I look for actual MVP whereas others vote Best Player.

My logic is simple. The better a player is - the more valuable he is.
If McDrai are the top 2 best players (as you could make a convincing argument they are this season) - they are also the 2 most valuable.

If player A scores 120 points and player B scores 100 points, player A is more valuable. The fact that team B may score a lot less overall or not shouldn't change that - 120 points is still more valuable than 100 points imo.

Now if you wanted to counter with a player C scoring 112 points but having way better defense than player A, sure maybe he's more valuable than A. But I don't think that is the case with anyone this season, McDavid and Drai are well atop the league in production.

I don't think it would be that crazy realistically. Drai is currently 2nd in points and 3rd in goals. That makes him more valuable to his team than most other top candidates, regardless of if McDavid is even more valuable to the Oilers.

The hard part is separating out how much their contributions individually are from feeding off each other. Draisaitl has contributed on 55% of McDavids points, and McDavid on 63% of Draisaitls points. If Draisaitl is actually the 2nd best player in the league (as many Oilers fans would state), then you can't deny that both players totals are inflated from playing with the #1/#2 best player in the league.

Now that wouldn't be enough to close the gap on McDavid, as he is clearly ahead of everyone else, but it might be enough to close the gap for Draisaitl, and have him not be a finalist IMO.

I get what you're saying, but I also feel this should have been more prevalent for Drai 2 years ago when he first hit 50/50. Back then "yeah but it's only because McDavid carried him", and "without McDavid, he'd score much less".

Last season he actually outproduced McDavid the whole year and swept the awards. I feel as though he shouldn't really be penalized for this anymore, as they both help each other, as other players on other teams get help from their teammates too. It's true that it helps Drai a lot that McDavid is there to score points - but if Drai wasn't playing with McDavid but instead playing with....Colorado or Toronto or Tampa, who don't have any one player as good as McDavid, but have overall better scoring depth - isn't that even better for him to produce points, or at least an equal trade-off?

 

[KlefDown]

Why would I respond to such a rude post by indulging you?

its so obvious you're just using a name of good player on a borderline bubble team just for the sake of it, not to mention Garland being their most valuable player this season

[mod]
is it a crime for Hedman, the leagues best defenseman, the be considered for MVP even though Tampa are still a playoff team without him?

 

[KlefDown]

McDavid and Drai aren't torching the league. They are torching the other 6 teams in Canada, and heavily padding their stats against Ottawa (each with 21 points in 9 games). Are we supposed to believe they'd be replicating these numbers in any of the other divisions?

almost as if they have never put up multiple 100 point+ regular season before this one winning Harts, Art Rosses, Lindseys over 82 games

 

[BlueBaron]

its so obvious you're just using a name of good player on a borderline bubble team just for the sake of it, not to mention Garland being their most valuable player this season

[mod]
is it a crime for Hedman, the leagues best defenseman, the be considered for MVP even though Tampa are still a playoff team without him?

OMG

So you don't know me. You assumed from the start you knew who I wanted (probably because I'm a Leaf fan). Then I give my answer and it's not the one you want so it's a lie?

[mod]

 

[KlefDown]

OMG

So you don't know me. You assumed from the start you knew who I wanted (probably because I'm a Leaf fan). Then I give my answer and it's not the one you want so it's a lie?

[mod]

your reasoning is just so off it makes no sense. you could have said Matthews/Marner/Cambell and it would have been more understandable. you're right, I don't know you but I also don't believe you genuinely think Chychurn is MVP unless you are his best friend or something.

Bar Taylor Hall with the Devils, the NHL old tradition you speak of hasn't happened in a long time

 

[Not My Tempo]

I think one of the reason I personally value analytics is that points aren’t really a true measure of value. The value created by a lot of duos/lines I feel is less than the sum of their point totals. Matthews Marner and Hyman combine together for goals all the time. Two goals scored by Matthews and both assisted on by Marner and Hyman, has 6 points attached to it, but only 2 goals were scored.

Are two players who each score two unassisted goals creating less value than two players who score goals assisted by the other? In the first scenario there are 2 goals and 2 points and in the second there are 2 goals and 4 points.

It’s actually why I really like attempts being made at GAR models or GSVA. They try to quantify what’s being done and give it weighting rather than predict what will happen.

All this being said, I think Draisaitl should still get some thought, just not because of his raw point totals. He’s been good this year even outside of his points. McDavid should definitely be the winner this year, his numbers are insane. For second and third place, I think it would have to be two of Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Matthews and Barkov.

 

[BlueBaron]

your reasoning is just so off it makes no sense. you could have said Matthews/Marner/Cambell and it would have been more understandable. you're right, I don't know you but I also don't believe you genuinely think Chychurn is MVP unless you are his best friend or something.

Bar Taylor Hall with the Devils, the NHL old tradition you speak of hasn't happened in a long time

There has already been one poster who liked my call on Chychurin.

I tell you I think it should be given to a guy who drags his team into the playoffs and then you are shocked I pick the ice time leader, 1 point behind team scoring leader d-man who is dragging his team into the playoffs? It's all a big lie to hide my secret desire for a Leaf to win presumably...

I think its becoming obvious you just want to argue over nonsense. My pick is the personification of the concept I described.

Now if you step back and read our exchange I'll tell you what it looks like. It looks like an Oiler fan upset I don't like his guy and wanting to show me how his guy is more worthy than my Leaf players. I can think of no other explanation for your constant assumptions, mentions of Leaf players and ignoring what a season Chychurin is having.

Maybe I have hamulated you in the past and you have a grudge? Either way you are not making rational posts. Go find a Leaf fan who thinks it should be Matthews and harass them, my position is reasonable and in keeping with my stated philosophy, why it's upsetting you so much is the real question?

 

[Dion TheFluff]

Draisaitl is a great player but McDavid is clearly the straw the stirs the drink on that team.

I mean just look at the highlights of this recent game above.

All he does is mooch points of McDavid by sitting and waiting for one-timers or doing little drop passes to him and letting McDavid do all the work.

Great Player but definitely not the 2nd best player in the world like Oilers fans would tell you and definitely not deserving of Hart consideration.

 

[KlefDown]

There has already been one poster who liked my call on Chychurin.

I tell you I think it should be given to a guy who drags his team into the playoffs and then you are shocked I pick the ice time leader, 1 point behind team scoring leader d-man who is dragging his team into the playoffs? It's all a big lie to hide my secret desire for a Leaf to win presumably...

I think its becoming obvious you just want to argue over nonsense. My pick is the personification of the concept I described.

Now if you step back and read our exchange I'll tell you what it looks like. It looks like an Oiler fan upset I don't like his guy and wanting to show me how his guy is more worthy than my Leaf players. I can think of no other explanation for your constant assumptions, mentions of Leaf players and ignoring what a season Chychurin is having.

Maybe I have hamulated you in the past and you have a grudge? Either way you are not making rational posts. Go find a Leaf fan who thinks it should be Matthews and harass them, my position is reasonable and in keeping with my stated philosophy, why it's upsetting you so much is the real question?

I actually could care less who wins it, I would rather see success in the playoffs. The first time Rocket winner in Matthews is definitely a good candidate for Hart.

I just hate the argument that only the best player on a borderline team deserves MVP. No where in the trophy voting does it say that, but I do agree that the media have made it so in the past.

All I'm saying is there are a lot of better players out there who deserve recognition for MVP and a lot of them are on playoff lock teams and it doesn't make them any less valuable just because they are.

 

[leafsfan5]

McDavid and Drai aren't torching the league. They are torching the other 6 teams in Canada, and heavily padding their stats against Ottawa (each with 21 points in 9 games). Are we supposed to believe they'd be replicating these numbers in any of the other divisions?

This is pretty funny but Drai last year after 41 games had the exact same amount of points, 61. McDavid at this point last year had 63 in 41, so just 6 points off his pace.

So yeah I'm inclined to believe they'd light the league on fire regardless, because they have. This isn't some "weak division" excuse fans of other teams have been using

 

[Sasha Orlov]

I doubt you do, you are probably just stereotyping me.

I'm leaning toward Chychrun if Arizona make the playoffs.

Correct, I was
That’s an interesting answer BlueBaron

 

[BlueBaron]

I actually could care less who wins it, I would rather see success in the playoffs. The first time Rocket winner in Matthews is definitely a good candidate for Hart.

I just hate the argument that only the best player on a borderline team deserves MVP. No where in the trophy voting does it say that, but I do agree that the media have made it so in the past.

All I'm saying is there are a lot of better players out there who deserve recognition for MVP and a lot of them are on playoff lock teams and it doesn't make them any less valuable just because they are.

That is quite a change in tone. Let's agree to disagree.