See my post three above this one (post 71). It's been shown that defensemen have no real control of their on ice SV%. I link to an article that explains it better than I can. garret and truck also speak to this point.
What's Byfuglien worth to you?
- Thread starter Daddy Longlegs
- Start date
See my post three above this one (post 71). It's been shown that defensemen have no real control of their on ice SV%. I link to an article that explains it better than I can. garret and truck also speak to this point.
I can't possibly see myself how a defenseman is not at least partially responsible for the ratio of how many pucks go in our net for how many are thrown towards the net. Over a long period of time I can see how things always even out, but I think a defenseman and a goalie's stats are always going to be somewhat dependant on each other. Bad at defense = tougher job for the goaltender...
I agree that Pavelec is part of the problem himself. But to write off Buff's brutal on ice save % as bad luck and on Pavs dragging HIM down is so one sides its not even fair.
When a defenseman makes a ****** play and it ends up in his own net, his on ice save % goes down. The same holds true for if his partner did, or a forward did. That's where the unfair part of it kicks in and over time THAT stuff evens out. But if you're the one making the most mistakes (considering Buff's ice time as dman I'd say he was, despite his many positive contributions) that is going to affect the stats and that's what I believe is happening in this case. A forward I could buy the argument much more but defensemen and goalies are so dependant on each other. It's a team game, not baseball where two people are facing off at a time.
Does that mean I believe Dougie Hamilton > Zdeno Chara?
truck
Registered User
Another big part of a D man's job is to prevent shots. The correlation between a defender's ability to prevent shots all together and their ability to prevent quality shots is very very high. Simply, D men have a lot more control over the number of shots that happen while they are on the ice than they do the number of saves.
If a D man sucks he will allow more shots against and get hemmed in his own zone constantly. The idea that a defender only allows high quality chances and prevents all the easy, saveable ones is hard to rationalize.
EDIT
Another thing worth noting:
Elite forwards score one a higher percentage of their shots than depth players. Simply facing players who generate a higher On Ice Shooting Percentage puts even top D at an immediate deficit. When you face the opposing players that do all the scoring, you are going to see pucks go in the net behind you.
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puck stoppa
Registered User
I always thought that our core shake up will involve trading Buff for a forward and Ladd or Wheeler for a young dman. We can get a better RW by trading Buff then Buff is a RW. If we shake things up this summer, the core I want to see stay is Little and Wheeler, but Buff may get the confidence from the new boss and end up staying, we shall see.
Hunter368
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To answer the original question..I wouldn't let Buff go for less than a second pairing LHD, a top-9 forward (both with term or RFA status at the end of their current contracts), and a mid- to high- round pick (like a 2nd). I know that we have a need at goalie, but I think that is more easily addressed by other means.
I always wonder about a team like the Canucks as a trade partner. They must see that their window only has a couple more years, at best. Once the Sedins begin to appreciably decline, they are through as a serious contender. Buff has two more years on his contract, adds size, strength and scoring to their lineup (although not necessarily toughness). They, quite frankly, need to go all in for these next couple of years if they are serious about winning a Cup, even if it costs them something in the future.
With that in mind I'd go something like Buff and Thorburn/Stuart (don't laugh, the Nucks need toughness more than about any team in the league) for Tanev (2nd pairing LHD), Kassian (3rd line F) and a 3rd. The Canucks fans would lose their minds over Kassian, but that is the price of poker, especially if Buff is able to string together some quality games a Forward and remain a PP force from the backend.
I always wonder about a team like the Canucks as a trade partner. They must see that their window only has a couple more years, at best. Once the Sedins begin to appreciably decline, they are through as a serious contender. Buff has two more years on his contract, adds size, strength and scoring to their lineup (although not necessarily toughness). They, quite frankly, need to go all in for these next couple of years if they are serious about winning a Cup, even if it costs them something in the future.
With that in mind I'd go something like Buff and Thorburn/Stuart (don't laugh, the Nucks need toughness more than about any team in the league) for Tanev (2nd pairing LHD), Kassian (3rd line F) and a 3rd. The Canucks fans would lose their minds over Kassian, but that is the price of poker, especially if Buff is able to string together some quality games a Forward and remain a PP force from the backend.
puck stoppa
Registered User
That trade seems like scraps. Id rather have a real good top six winger and not worry about getting a dman go for good winger plus top prospect.
I don't know about that. Kassian is still on his ELC and could quite easily develop into a top 6 forward.
Tanev is 24 and an RFA but is already playing top 4 minutes.
The fact of the matter is you are not getting a top-tier forward from a team making a playoff push. Plus, if you are talking about trading Buff, you will certainly open up a need on defense.
In the end, we fill two positions of need with players that are in the right age profile, who could be in the organization for 8-10 years and have the potential to be much better than they are now.
Seems like more than scraps to me
I agree with Tanev being a good piece, but this does seem like a "dollar for 3 quarters" kind of trade to me.
I'd rate Buff as what Pierre Maguire calls a "2 asset" kind of player - meaning if you trade him, you have to get two significant assets coming back.
To me, those assets are a Top-4 D, Top-6 F or #1 G or prospects that can be expected to hit those levels or a high pick.
So from Vancouver, I'd want Tanev + Horvat.
Aavco Cup
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It's THN so consider the source but says Buff's trade value goes down playing forward.
http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/does-moving-to-forward-hurt-byfugliens-trade-value/
http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/does-moving-to-forward-hurt-byfugliens-trade-value/
truck
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KCjetsfan
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Gil Fisher
Registered User
Long term, I'd agree. But the next three weeks into the Olympic Break won't affect his value negatively. Teams know and have interest in him as a defenceman. If you can show he can also be an effective power forward over the next few weeks, it only beings more teams to the table.
Daddy Longlegs
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Would people here feel satisfied with:
To Carolina:
Byfuglien
To Winnipeg:
Elias Lindholm
2014 or 2015 1st rounder
Is this realistic? Asking too much?
To Carolina:
Byfuglien
To Winnipeg:
Elias Lindholm
2014 or 2015 1st rounder
Is this realistic? Asking too much?
Mathmew Purrrr Oh
#meowmeowmeowmeow
one of those not enough value for Buff but too much to give up for Carolina trades imo
Channelcat
Unhinged user
I would not be surprised to see Buff be one of the first "injury additions" to team USA if he continues to play like this. That could up his perceived value dramatically.
Scheifele55
Registered User
I truly hope Winnipeg deals Byfuglien at the trade deadline or draft.
The sole reason is that Winnipeg needs to load up for when Trouba and Scheifele hit their prime, hopefully then Morrisey will be a solid NHLer, Comrie or Hellebuyck will be starting and some of what we receive in return will be solid players. This team at present isn't going anywhere in the playoffs.
The sole reason is that Winnipeg needs to load up for when Trouba and Scheifele hit their prime, hopefully then Morrisey will be a solid NHLer, Comrie or Hellebuyck will be starting and some of what we receive in return will be solid players. This team at present isn't going anywhere in the playoffs.
Vancouver wouldn't do that. I've spoken to some fans that value Horvat as much as we value Trouba which is ridiculous.
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That disease is called "prospectitis" and it gets much worse with an org who has less prospects.
Edgar Halliwax
aka Marvin Candle
Captain Catatomic
SuprstitionCondition
I think Canucks fans overrate Horvat because they are so shallow in forward prospect depth.
I could see a few teams interested in Buff for the playoff run. He would fit in well on the wing of top lines in places like Anaheim. Boston, Detroit, LA, San Jose.
How about:
To Anaheim - Byfuglien, Montoya
To Winnipeg - Palmeiri, Sbisa, Anderson
Increases depth in all areas and spearheads a youth movement in Winnipeg.
Anaheim adds another monster winger to wear down opposing defenders with the likes of Perry, Penner, and Maroon. Buff may also be of service on the point of the Anaheim power play.
voyageur
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I am going to try to be objective with this subject.
There are several variables to consider in Byfuglien's value. Among them would be age, contract term, need, etc.
Byfuglien's greatest strengths are his abilities with the puck. He uses his frame to shield the puck probably better than any player. He can be an absolute force around the net. His shot is terrific, even his snappers come with a lot of power. He can stand up just up any player in the league.
Without the puck, his skating is his most obvious detriment. His cross overs look laborious, and he doesn't move his feet particularly well, unless going full steam. Conditioning is improved, but still prone to floating, though it seems he does so less as a forward.
When I look at the Jets roster he really seems to me like the most movable piece.
Enstrom is the QB on defense, Trouba is the most complete defenseman, Bogosian plays hard minutes, and the Jets look to have Clitsome, Postma, Ellerby, Redmond, and conceivably Pardy competing for jobs next year in the 5-8 slots. Maybe Stuart too, as a defensive leader, if the Jets and him are able to come to terms.
I think you have Kane-Scheifele-Wheeler as the top line for many years to come. Frolik has been added to Little-Ladd to make the line more defensively adept (only wish Frolik would take draws). If Buff can not crack either the top 4 d or top 6 forwards, and with a kid like Trouba who should surely supplant Buff as the 1st unit PP d-man, his greatest value is as a trading chip.
I look at a few teams who could surely use him.
1) Vancouver, with the Sedins he would be a force, the winger to give them space, maybe a 30 goal scorer. I think you could probably get Edler (who could replace Stuart's defensive minutes and be a 20+ minute a game d-man if Stuart isn't to be resigned) a young speedy Minnesota kid like Jordan Schroeder, and a 2nd rd pick are achievable, maybe Edler and Shinkaruk even, as Vancouver's window isn't forever.
2) St. Louis, L.A has physically dominated the Blues in the playoffs in consecutive years. A player like Buff would sure be a force on a line with Backes and Steen. I think reasonably you get Jaden Schwartz who would be a real asset on a 3rd line with a promising future ahead of him, Ian Cole (or Roman Polak, who is really needed as a RHD, unless Bogo was to move back to the left side) and/or a 1st. Jake Allen would be a good return to, but hard to see the Blues giving up on him, with Halak possibly leaving at the end of the year.
3) Tampa, flying under the radar all year, Buff would sure complement Stamkos and St. Louis better than Ryan Malone ever could. A lot of prospects on Tampa, from Vasilievsky to Killorn, could help us fill the cupboards.
4) Montreal, Dudley is in their organization, no team needs size more than the Habs--Eller, Tinordi, 2nd?
I think the trades involving Duchesne or Skinner are a little far fetched, those are going to be 40 goal scorers in their prime, and their value probably is straight up Kane, Scheifele, or Trouba. I prefer the proposals for a 3rd line young gun, who can move up the lineup, a top 4 d-man, and picks.
The position of the forward we should get in return will be influenced by the returns we get for Setoguchi, Jokinen (who I think should be resigned for 2 more), Stuart, and maybe Burmistrov.
There are several variables to consider in Byfuglien's value. Among them would be age, contract term, need, etc.
Byfuglien's greatest strengths are his abilities with the puck. He uses his frame to shield the puck probably better than any player. He can be an absolute force around the net. His shot is terrific, even his snappers come with a lot of power. He can stand up just up any player in the league.
Without the puck, his skating is his most obvious detriment. His cross overs look laborious, and he doesn't move his feet particularly well, unless going full steam. Conditioning is improved, but still prone to floating, though it seems he does so less as a forward.
When I look at the Jets roster he really seems to me like the most movable piece.
Enstrom is the QB on defense, Trouba is the most complete defenseman, Bogosian plays hard minutes, and the Jets look to have Clitsome, Postma, Ellerby, Redmond, and conceivably Pardy competing for jobs next year in the 5-8 slots. Maybe Stuart too, as a defensive leader, if the Jets and him are able to come to terms.
I think you have Kane-Scheifele-Wheeler as the top line for many years to come. Frolik has been added to Little-Ladd to make the line more defensively adept (only wish Frolik would take draws). If Buff can not crack either the top 4 d or top 6 forwards, and with a kid like Trouba who should surely supplant Buff as the 1st unit PP d-man, his greatest value is as a trading chip.
I look at a few teams who could surely use him.
1) Vancouver, with the Sedins he would be a force, the winger to give them space, maybe a 30 goal scorer. I think you could probably get Edler (who could replace Stuart's defensive minutes and be a 20+ minute a game d-man if Stuart isn't to be resigned) a young speedy Minnesota kid like Jordan Schroeder, and a 2nd rd pick are achievable, maybe Edler and Shinkaruk even, as Vancouver's window isn't forever.
2) St. Louis, L.A has physically dominated the Blues in the playoffs in consecutive years. A player like Buff would sure be a force on a line with Backes and Steen. I think reasonably you get Jaden Schwartz who would be a real asset on a 3rd line with a promising future ahead of him, Ian Cole (or Roman Polak, who is really needed as a RHD, unless Bogo was to move back to the left side) and/or a 1st. Jake Allen would be a good return to, but hard to see the Blues giving up on him, with Halak possibly leaving at the end of the year.
3) Tampa, flying under the radar all year, Buff would sure complement Stamkos and St. Louis better than Ryan Malone ever could. A lot of prospects on Tampa, from Vasilievsky to Killorn, could help us fill the cupboards.
4) Montreal, Dudley is in their organization, no team needs size more than the Habs--Eller, Tinordi, 2nd?
I think the trades involving Duchesne or Skinner are a little far fetched, those are going to be 40 goal scorers in their prime, and their value probably is straight up Kane, Scheifele, or Trouba. I prefer the proposals for a 3rd line young gun, who can move up the lineup, a top 4 d-man, and picks.
The position of the forward we should get in return will be influenced by the returns we get for Setoguchi, Jokinen (who I think should be resigned for 2 more), Stuart, and maybe Burmistrov.
