What would you be willing to trade to acquire Jack Eichel?

[Viqsi]

Yeah, on final review, I think the equivalent package from us would have been Jenner, Marchenko or Sillinger, 1st 2022 (presumably the lower of ours or the Blackhawks'), 2nd 2023. Jenner's a couple years older than Tuch but on a comparable contract, so it sort of balances. Kind of.

Given that, I can both understand why Kekalainen would have kept the phone lines open just in case, and be content that we didn't go for it. And G-d f***ing forbid us trying to go higher than that.

 

[DarkandStormy]

We got more for Seth Jones.

 

[Viqsi]

We got more for Seth Jones.

Maybe. The Jones return sure is looking a lot better nowadays, to be sure, but hindsight evaluation of past trades is frequently a good way to f*** up one's perspective w/r/t evaluating current and future ones.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Maybe. The Jones return sure is looking a lot better nowadays, to be sure, but hindsight evaluation of past trades is frequently a good way to f*** up one's perspective w/r/t evaluating current and future ones.

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Chicago gets Jones - who was healthy this past summer - at $5.4m this year and then for 8 more years.

A bit different than Eichel's situation w/r/t health and contract length.

 

[DarkandStormy]

 

[Long Live Lyle]

Yeah, on final review, I think the equivalent package from us would have been Jenner, Marchenko or Sillinger, 1st 2022 (presumably the lower of ours or the Blackhawks'), 2nd 2023. Jenner's a couple years older than Tuch but on a comparable contract, so it sort of balances. Kind of.

Given that, I can both understand why Kekalainen would have kept the phone lines open just in case, and be content that we didn't go for it. And G-d f***ing forbid us trying to go higher than that.

Vegas also got a 3rd-round pick for 2023. Buffalo will be picking early in the 3rd, Vegas late in the 2nd in 2023. So that's maybe ~10 slot differential, which when you get out of the 1st-early 2nd is virtually not differential at all. I'm going to call that a wash and not even count that.

Vegas's first will also (likely) be pretty high, although they're not off to a great start. But I think it's expected they'll turn that around. Our 1st would be more highly valued, although perhaps that would account for the difference in age between Jenner and Tuch (and I also think Tuch is a slightly better player). It's tough, because Jenner is more important to us than Tuch is to Vegas.

I would've loved to have gotten Eichel for the value he got... but I'm also just not sure we have the assets at this time that Buffalo was looking for without giving up Jenner which we're just not going to do. I think you nailed it earlier: if we had signed Anderson long-term to the Montreal contract, we probably could've done Anderson, Foudy and 1st 2022 for Eichel, and I would've been very, very happy with that. (Would also mean we wouldn't have Domi, of course, in this hypothetical, so you could look at it as Domi, Knazko, Foudy and 1st 2022 for Eichel, if you prefer, from an asset standpoint.)

 

[Viqsi]

Vegas also got a 3rd-round pick for 2023. Buffalo will be picking early in the 3rd, Vegas late in the 2nd in 2023. So that's maybe ~10 slot differential, which when you get out of the 1st-early 2nd is virtually not differential at all. I'm going to call that a wash and not even count that.

Vegas's first will also (likely) be pretty high, although they're not off to a great start. But I think it's expected they'll turn that around. Our 1st would be more highly valued, although perhaps that would account for the difference in age between Jenner and Tuch (and I also think Tuch is a slightly better player). It's tough, because Jenner is more important to us than Tuch is to Vegas.

I would've loved to have gotten Eichel for the value he got... but I'm also just not sure we have the assets at this time that Buffalo was looking for without giving up Jenner which we're just not going to do. I think you nailed it earlier: if we had signed Anderson long-term to the Montreal contract, we probably could've done Anderson, Foudy and 1st 2022 for Eichel, and I would've been very, very happy with that.

Anderson, maybe. But we'd have had to give better than Foudy as the top prospect. That I'm pretty certain of.

 

[Long Live Lyle]

Anderson, maybe. But we'd have had to give better than Foudy as the top prospect. That I'm pretty certain of.

I think the marginal differences between the value of our projected 1st and Vegas's projected 1st would be enough to offset the difference between Foudy and Krebs, but maybe Krebs is much more highly valued than I realized. I'm not an expert on other teams's prospects.

 

[Viqsi]

I think the marginal differences between the value of our projected 1st and Vegas's projected 1st would be enough to offset the difference between Foudy and Krebs, but maybe Krebs is much more highly valued than I realized. I'm not an expert on other teams's prospects.

I'm not either but I've been doing a lot of reading by those who are, and the impression I'm getting is that he is (or was) the best prospect in that pool by a notable margin. He'd arguably have been KJ-level (not as much of a puck wizard but has hyperspeed to make up for it) except he's having some trouble translating his game to the NHL to start (he's 20 to KJ's just-turned-19) and so there's some slight doubts starting to form, as is typical.

I had a similar "gosh, the basic scouting reports make him sound like Foudy" moment at first as well. He's definitely more highly regarded.

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

first off I need to apologize to MajorMajor - he was right the Sabres did come off their 4 1sts demands - you were right, I was wrong. Infact, I wasn't even close.

Krebs, Tuch(out for shoulder surgery until 2022), 2022 first, 2023 2nd, is considerably less than what you would have had to trade to get a McKinnon, Matthews or Draisaitl (lets say a healthy Eichel is just below that tier) - so certainly the health status has weighed into this trade and Tuch is on IR- and they get Buffs 2023 3rd rounder..

If Eichel returns to full health w/o further complications Vegas just made an unbelievable trade. This deal is made easier when you have already added Stone via trade, and Pietrangelo via FA.

I wish the CBJ could have gotten into that deal, but it would have cost Sillinger, Johnson++ plus critical draft picks. Jarmo gets props for staying the course and not undoing his work of June - July.

 

[DarkandStormy]

 

[LoneFunyan]

LV got two "NHL ready players" in Tuch and Krebs (plus picks, which we'd obv have to match). Our counter offer is

Jenner = Tuch
Sillinger = Krebs

If I'm Buffalo, I ask for something more, because both assets on our side can be legitimately downsold against the competing asset from LV. I think we'd probably have to have given up those two, plus one of the Russians, maybe 2 since Marchenko and Voronkov are still in Russia.

Wouldn't give that up for the level of uncertainty Eichel brings, both in terms of his injury and recovery AND the loss of leadership in Boone as we bring in a guy who *may* have some attitude issues.

 

[Viqsi]

Interesting. It's still helpful as an idea of where their heads were w/r/t preferred class of return (power forward), and settling for Tuch instead of Tkachuk does seem like a bit of a significant downgrade. So the idea that Tkachuk was more of a pipe dream than a possibility does seem to make sense.

 

[Long Live Lyle]

first off I need to apologize to MajorMajor - he was right the Sabres did come off their 4 1sts demands - you were right, I was wrong. Infact, I wasn't even close.

Krebs, Tuch(out for shoulder surgery until 2022), 2022 first, 2023 2nd, is considerably less than what you would have had to trade to get a McKinnon, Matthews or Draisaitl (lets say a healthy Eichel is just below that tier) - so certainly the health status has weighed into this trade and Tuch is on IR- and they get Buffs 2023 3rd rounder..

If Eichel returns to full health w/o further complications Vegas just made an unbelievable trade. This deal is made easier when you have already added Stone via trade, and Pietrangelo via FA.

I wish the CBJ could have gotten into that deal, but it would have cost Sillinger, Johnson++ plus critical draft picks. Jarmo gets props for staying the course and not undoing his work of June - July.

I don't understand this. The trade shows it would not have taken that (as you acknowledged in your 2nd paragraph, and me making the assumption that ++ means 'and'). Nothing sent the other way by Vegas is as valuable as either Johnson or Sillinger.

Honestly, Johnson and 2022 1st would have gotten it done probably, if you assume that Johnson and our 2022 1st is >= Tuch, Krebs and Vegas 2022 1st, which I think is more than a fair assumption. You can argue for or against doing that, but with Sillinger and the Hawks 2022 1st still in tow, it would not have destroyed our long-term plans (plus, obviously, a just entering his prime and signed long-term Jack Eichel).

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

Honestly, Johnson and 2022 1st would have gotten it done probably, if you assume that Johnson and our 2022 1st is >= Tuch, Krebs and Vegas 2022 1st, which I think is more than a fair assumption. You can argue for or against doing that, but with Sillinger and the Hawks 2022 1st still in tow, it would not have destroyed our long-term plans (plus, obviously, a just entering his prime and signed long-term Jack Eichel).

I think a page or so ago the equivalent was mentioned as Jenner, Sillinger, our lower 2022 1st round pick plus - as the equivalent of Tuch, Krebs and a 1st - looking at the Sabres board they seem to be happy that it is finally done.. looking on the mains the concensus is mixed: I agree we probably should have done it - if LV has had a hole at top line center, we have had the Grand Canyon.

From Sabre fan: Adams was looking for the equivalent of 4 1sts and came away with 3 and a 2nd - I think we all would have liked another smaller piece but that didn't happen. Very happy with Tuch & Krebs. Called trade a win win.

 

[Viqsi]

I don't understand this. The trade shows it would not have taken that (as you acknowledged in your 2nd paragraph, and me making the assumption that ++ means 'and'). Nothing sent the other way by Vegas is as valuable as either Johnson or Sillinger.

Honestly, Johnson and 2022 1st would have gotten it done probably, if you assume that Johnson and our 2022 1st is >= Tuch, Krebs and Vegas 2022 1st, which I think is more than a fair assumption. You can argue for or against doing that, but with Sillinger and the Hawks 2022 1st still in tow, it would not have destroyed our long-term plans (plus, obviously, a just entering his prime and signed long-term Jack Eichel).

I'll concede the value is close enough that there's a debate to be had. I would, however, remain firmly on the "no thanks" side.

 

[majormajor]

first off I need to apologize to MajorMajor - he was right the Sabres did come off their 4 1sts demands - you were right, I was wrong. Infact, I wasn't even close.

You don't have to apologize to me, just pay attention to what Elliotte Friedman says.

I wish the CBJ could have gotten into that deal, but it would have cost Sillinger, Johnson++ plus critical draft picks. Jarmo gets props for staying the course and not undoing his work of June - July.

I think you're still off the mark.

Sillinger + Johnson ++ is a lot more value than Krebs+VGK 1st + Tuch

Krebs is maybe worth Johnson, certainly less than Sillinger at this point. Maybe Buffalo especially liked Krebs, so we'll say he and Johnson are similar value. Our first is worth a lot more than theirs, so you could say we wouldn't even need much else. It's almost Johnson + 1st and then a low-value roster player.

Interesting. It's still helpful as an idea of where their heads were w/r/t preferred class of return (power forward), and settling for Tuch instead of Tkachuk does seem like a bit of a significant downgrade. So the idea that Tkachuk was more of a pipe dream than a possibility does seem to make sense.

Friedman said it was baloney...

 

[majormajor]

Yeah, on final review, I think the equivalent package from us would have been Jenner, Marchenko or Sillinger, 1st 2022 (presumably the lower of ours or the Blackhawks'), 2nd 2023. Jenner's a couple years older than Tuch but on a comparable contract, so it sort of balances. Kind of.

Given that, I can both understand why Kekalainen would have kept the phone lines open just in case, and be content that we didn't go for it. And G-d f***ing forbid us trying to go higher than that.

"Marchenko or Sillinger" isn't a thing anymore. When a guy starts off like Sillinger has, his value rockets upward. But I do think Krebs is high value, possibly Johnson level.

I don't think Jenner has value on Tuch's level (compare their playoff records), but their 1st doesn't have value like ours either, so you end up in the ballpark.

 

[LoneFunyan]

if you assume that Johnson and our 2022 1st is >= Tuch, Krebs and Vegas 2022 1st, which I think is more than a fair assumption.

Tuch is a known quantity, a definite NHL asset once recovered and Krebs is a center who is "NHL-ready". Jonson's at least a year away and currently playing wing in college. Our management views him as a center, but I don't think Buffalo would be willing to take that on faith, esp given they NEED to show that they got a center in return. Add to that their recent success, which is going to steer them to want someone they can plug in now, and it makes Johnson far less attractive than the combination of Krebs and Tuch.

If Johnson and our 1st this year could have gotten it done, I would switch from no to yes pretty readily.

 

[Viqsi]

"Marchenko or Sillinger" isn't a thing anymore. When a guy starts off like Sillinger has, his value rockets upward. But I do think Krebs is high value, possibly Johnson level.

Yeah, if you look earlier in the thread I was kind of publically having that debate with myself. I ultimately docked Krebs a tiny bit lower because he hasn't jumped to the NHL as effortlessly as one might have hoped, whereas KJ is too young for doubts to have really set in yet. But there's still oodles of time left for him to still be a badass, so.

 

[Youngguns80]

You don't have to apologize to me, just pay attention to what Elliotte Friedman says.



I think you're still off the mark.

Sillinger + Johnson ++ is a lot more value than Krebs+VGK 1st + Tuch

Krebs is maybe worth Johnson, certainly less than Sillinger at this point. Maybe Buffalo especially liked Krebs, so we'll say he and Johnson are similar value. Our first is worth a lot more than theirs, so you could say we wouldn't even need much else. It's almost Johnson + 1st and then a low-value roster player.



Friedman said it was baloney...

On any front - I would have traded Johnson + 1st and Low prospect for Eichel. As someone said they must have liked Krebs from the start. Just sucks because I think Eichel will return to form and deliver for many years in Vegas. Who knows if Johnson makes it as a Center, very talented but also very light and not playing Center currently

Not an indictment of Jarmo or saying anything bad but this could have been a game changer for this organization.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Unless we were willing to part with

Johnson + one of Ceuelemans/Chinakhov/Sillinger + Korpi + a first or two we weren’t going to get Eichel.

I’m glad we’re full speed ahead on our rebuild no matter how much I liked Eichel.

 

[LJ7]

I never understood why Eichel was seen here as scarier than rolling with Boone Jenner, 18 year old Sillinger, whatever Jack Roslovic is.. then later on mostly unknown Voronkov, and winger Kent Johnson as current/future top 6 center candidates. Maybe it's leftover Jeff Carter trauma that I'm not old enough to carry or something.

The fact we are able to be competitive with one of the worst center groups in the league makes me very curious to see how good this team would be with a true answer at 1C. Our wings, goalies, and maybe even defensemen and coaching staff seem ready to make the leap to bring this team to the next level, but our center play is no where close. As a fan base I think we collectively take Bjorkstrand, Laine, Werenski and the goalies for granted. Those type of guys don't grow on trees. Plus some depth guys hold up quite well. This team is better than we think, they aren't winning by mistake. I truly think we're an Eichel away from being serious contenders this year and especially next year.

I guess I understand why we didn't get Eichel, but relying on an 18 year old 1C and banking on UM's star left wing to be present and near future top 6 centers doesn't make much sense to me. Our stars are ready now. I mean for goodness sake if we were a Canadian market Bjorkstrand and Werenski would be absolute household names. I hope the patience pays off or another move we have no idea about is in store, but I don't really understand the hesitancy to fix the teams biggest issue.

Edit: I do want to be clear that Sillinger should be nearly untouchable rn, and Johnson should be held at a very high value in trade talks. I do get why we couldn't really get Eichel: our best prospects timelines don't line up with what Buffalo wanted, and we need our prospects more than Vegas does. I just think it's unfortunate that it didn't work out since we need an Eichel badly.

 

[majormajor]

I never understood why Eichel was seen here as scarier than rolling with Boone Jenner, 18 year old Sillinger, whatever Jack Roslovic is.. then later on mostly unknown Voronkov, and winger Kent Johnson as current/future top 6 center candidates. Maybe it's leftover Jeff Carter trauma that I'm not old enough to carry or something.

It's simple enough. Around here a nuclear rebuild where you invest all your trust in players who have never played in the NHL is considered safe, while investing in guys who have already dominated the NHL is considered dangerous.

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

Yeah.. this last guy LJ7201 & I are on the same page on this. We have been without a #1 centreman for so long that we don't really know what we are missing eh? Cole Sillinger can very well fill that void.. last night he was awewome, but as an 18 year old playing against the best in the world I would expect the ride to be pretty up & down - much like our games to date.

Gotta believe some of the trepidation comes from Eichel's injury. Neck problems can be debilitating, and life long. I know people that have multiple suregeries and the pain they deal with is bad. How about an elite player moving around at 25-30 mph and constantly crashing?

Just spent 10 minutes looking at the LVK board: they have fans complaining that they traded Tuch and Krebs. The just got a top 5 centre in the NHL. smh.. George McPhee has done an unbelievable job - Patches, Stone, Pietrangelo and now Eichel. We traded for Bread and I went out of my mind.