What would it take to fire Bylsma?

[Ugene Magic]

Guess we might as well wait until the playoffs then, because right now the roster is pretty thin.

The jury's still out on this season. Madden had it right when he said Bylsma has been doing some stupid things, but Rossi also had it right when he moaned that we're picking our spots with regular season critiques. It's a double standard that shouldn't be necessary to condemn Bylsma.

I can't really tell if he "outcoaches" the other guy during a game, and I'm skeptical of anyone here who says they can. I think he's flawed. I think he plays to the vets, and he's stubborn. But, I remember Penguins teams dominating the offensive zone in every year but this one, and having their goaltender gut this team with ******** goals.

I think something's got to give after this year, and if it resembles either of '12 or '13 I'll be carrying a torch with you. But the Bruins fans were bemoaning "Clod" Julien right before they happened to win the Cup, and I will feel intense gratification if something is left in Bylsma's (and Fleury's) tank this year.

Great post, Tom.

This thread should be revisited after the playoffs, or during if they fail in miserable fashion. A firing won't happen before.

 

[Whale Mingo]

Great post, Tom.

This thread should be revisited after the playoffs, or during if they fail in miserable fashion. A firing won't happen before.

I don't think anyone expects him to be fired before the payoffs. When he was named coach of team USA for the Olympics our fate was sealed this year.

I think the real problem is nobody in the front office is even considering canning the guy and that is what has us worried. Was, rinse, repeat seems to be the battle cry.

When the team loses a bunch of revenue from a first round loss and the sell out streak ends next year (or student rush fills the last 5,000 seats at $20/ticket) I think things may start to change and if the team is struggling into January it's goodbye Bylsma.

 

[joeyjake5]

I am not a DB supporter but I believe the majority on this board do not believe that ORPs, Scuds, Adams, or Glass belong on this team. RS was responsible for either signing, resigning or letting these four underachieving to remain on the team. You don't win cups unless all 20 players contribute. To this end, I don't see any thing that these four can contribute to winning a cup.

 

[Whale Mingo]

I am not a DB supporter but I believe the majority on this board do not believe that ORPs, Scuds, Adams, or Glass belong on this team. RS was responsible for either signing, resigning or letting these four underachieving to remain on the team. You don't win cups unless all 20 players contribute. To this end, I don't see any thing that these four can contribute to winning a cup.

None of the above mentioned belong in the NHL, let alone on this team. That doesn't excuse the stupidity of how Bylsma uses what he does have. This Iginla thing is just mind numbing to me. How is it he didn't lose his job for his misuse of Iginla while the team was scoring a grand total of two goals against Boston? When you see the numbers Iggy is putting up this year they should be the nail in the coffin for BD.

I do not expect us to be having this conversation next year. Lemieux may not care about the money anymore, but he is still a prideful guy and another embarrassing loss in the playoffs will probably be it for Danny boy. I'll be pretty happy when that day comes.

 

[Tender Rip]

None of the above mentioned belong in the NHL, let alone on this team.

Of course Orpik and Scuderi belong in the NHL. It is this kind of over the top criticism that makes it impossible for some to separate meaningful criticism of DB and said players from.... nonsense.
Even Glass and Adams can have roles in the NHL. Just nothing like what they have with us.

 

[Whale Mingo]

Of course Orpik and Scuderi belong in the NHL. It is this kind of over the top criticism that makes it impossible for some to separate meaningful criticism of DB and said players from.... nonsense.
Even Glass and Adams can have roles in the NHL. Just nothing like what they have with us.

Fair enough, but what meaningful role would a guy like Orpik have the way he is playing right now? He should be buying Craig Adams dinner every night because without Adams he would be the worst guy on the ice every night.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Because Bylsma is flawed coach and the Pens don't win the cup every year by winning every game 10-0.

I love how people take the time to detail out multiple issues that they have with DB and you ignore all of those post and decide to put them into a crazy category by making a statement that not one DB critic makes. Well done, that is exactly what Rob Rossi would do.

 

[Xavier Laflamme*]

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but in your opinion, if we never fire Therrien, do you think we still win the Cup in 09. I know we were out of a playoff spot and falling fast at the time but do you think we recover under MT and make the playoffs still and go on to win the cup?

Everyone assumes Bylsma won that Cup under MT's team and strategies. Afterward Bylsma incorporated his strategies and game plans.

For what it's worth, I hate Bylsma right now and want him gone. I appreciate the guy and everything he's done to this point but he's clearly run his course here no longer have his players attention.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The lineup choices, especially the idiocy with Iggy, and love for Gladdams can be annoying but is not why the Pens got dominated in the playoffs the past few years despite dominating the regular season.

I would stop the Bylsma criticism if he would do just one thing in the playoffs. Adapt when teams take his favorite toy away. Simply put, the play book on how to beat the Pens in the playoffs is so well worn at this point to become cliche. Clog up the neutral zone to deny the stretch pass and take away Crosby and Malkin daring the Pens wings and other lines to beat you.

And Bylsma just keeps playing right into that playbook series after series, year after year. Even in series he wins.

Fix that, make adjustments, and I would stop calling for his head on a pike.

 

[steveg]

The lineup choices, especially the idiocy with Iggy, and love for Gladdams can be annoying but is not why the Pens got dominated in the playoffs the past few years despite dominating the regular season.

I would stop the Bylsma criticism if he would do just one thing in the playoffs. Adapt when teams take his favorite toy away. Simply put, the play book on how to beat the Pens in the playoffs is so well worn at this point to become cliche. Clog up the neutral zone to deny the stretch pass and take away Crosby and Malkin daring the Pens wings and other lines to beat you.

And Bylsma just keeps playing right into that playbook series after series, year after year. Even in series he wins.

Fix that, make adjustments, and I would stop calling for his head on a pike.

jaded -- I understand the point you are making in your second paragraph. YES, teams focus on taking away Crosby and Malkin (and, to some degree then, those two lines as a whole). And you said that your biggest complaint about DB is that he doesn't seem to adapt to that. BUT -- in your FIRST paragraph, you minimized his "love for Gladams" as being "annoying," but "not why the Pens get dominated." I would like to suggest that it is INDEED, at least partly, his LOVE FOR GLADAMS that ALLOWS teams to focus on Crosby and Malkin (and the top two lines, in general).

From my perspective, when you play a top-tier team, these teams usually have both enough talent, and a good enough coach, so as to effectively employ a strategy to at least partially minimize Sid and Geno -- i.e. line match, using the players most capable of neutralizing our skilled playmakers. ONE WAY to attack such a strategy (a strategy focused on minimizing Sid and Geno) is by icing VERY GOOD third and fourth lines; lines that -- if you load up to stop our top two centers -- can still hurt you, with speed, with aggressive forecheck/possession time, with some grit/muscle, AND with secondary scoring. To me, this is ONE WAY to attack such a "load up to stop the top two lines" strategy. BUT -- when you are icing Glass and Adams as 1/3 of your bottom 6, you are shooting yourself in the foot. You are ASKING, no -- BEGGING -- teams to load up against your top two lines, because they have NO REASON not to. It is NO WONDER the "book" on the Pens, as you call it, is "stop Sid and Geno, and you will most likely win a series."

IF Disco would sit Glass and Adams for most games, and run a very defensively-responsible but offensively capable third line something like this...

Jokinen-Sutter-Goc

and then a VERY speedy/forechecking/disruptive fourth line that STILL can score a few goals at times something like this...

Gibbons-Vitale-Megna

...then, to me, it is in general MUCH harder for teams to completely focus on the top two lines, versus running, say, a Glass-Vitale-Adams fourth line. My point here is that it seems to me that DB's "love for Gladams," and the "inability to adjust," go somewhat hand-in-hand...

 

[Still Apps]

...IF Disco would sit Glass and Adams for most games, and run a very defensively-responsible but offensively capable third line something like this...

Jokinen-Sutter-Goc

and then a VERY speedy/forechecking/disruptive fourth line that STILL can score a few goals at times something like this...

Gibbons-Vitale-Megna

...then, to me, it is in general MUCH harder for teams to completely focus on the top two lines, versus running, say, a Glass-Vitale-Adams fourth line. My point here is that it seems to me that DB's "love for Gladams," and the "inability to adjust," go somewhat hand-in-hand...

That nails it for me. If DB will use our personnel in a way to give other teams something to be legitimately concerned with on the third and fourth lines, our top two lines will have the opportunities they need to take over a game.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

jaded -- I understand the point you are making in your second paragraph. YES, teams focus on taking away Crosby and Malkin (and, to some degree then, those two lines as a whole). And you said that your biggest complaint about DB is that he doesn't seem to adapt to that. BUT -- in your FIRST paragraph, you minimized his "love for Gladams" as being "annoying," but "not why the Pens get dominated." I would like to suggest that it is INDEED, at least partly, his LOVE FOR GLADAMS that ALLOWS teams to focus on Crosby and Malkin (and the top two lines, in general).

From my perspective, when you play a top-tier team, these teams usually have both enough talent, and a good enough coach, so as to effectively employ a strategy to at least partially minimize Sid and Geno -- i.e. line match, using the players most capable of neutralizing our skilled playmakers. ONE WAY to attack such a strategy (a strategy focused on minimizing Sid and Geno) is by icing VERY GOOD third and fourth lines; lines that -- if you load up to stop our top two centers -- can still hurt you, with speed, with aggressive forecheck/possession time, with some grit/muscle, AND with secondary scoring. To me, this is ONE WAY to attack such a "load up to stop the top two lines" strategy. BUT -- when you are icing Glass and Adams as 1/3 of your bottom 6, you are shooting yourself in the foot. You are ASKING, no -- BEGGING -- teams to load up against your top two lines, because they have NO REASON not to. It is NO WONDER the "book" on the Pens, as you call it, is "stop Sid and Geno, and you will most likely win a series."

IF Disco would sit Glass and Adams for most games, and run a very defensively-responsible but offensively capable third line something like this...

Jokinen-Sutter-Goc

and then a VERY speedy/forechecking/disruptive fourth line that STILL can score a few goals at times something like this...

Gibbons-Vitale-Megna

...then, to me, it is in general MUCH harder for teams to completely focus on the top two lines, versus running, say, a Glass-Vitale-Adams fourth line. My point here is that it seems to me that DB's "love for Gladams," and the "inability to adjust," go somewhat hand-in-hand...

Yep. Well said. A lineup with Glass and Adams in it is just asking for teams to collapse on Sid and Geno.

 

[joeyjake5]

Yep. Well said. A lineup with Glass and Adams in it is just asking for teams to collapse on Sid and Geno.

So who is at fault, DB for playing GLADAMS or RS for letting DB to play with these toys.

 

[ColePens]

Interesting, Jaded. I do think the line up plays a part. I think I'd agree if you said it was the system more. I definitely think it plays a part.

 

[IcedCapp]

So who is at fault, DB for playing GLADAMS or RS for letting DB to play with these toys.

Shero has given Bylsma better options than he's currently using. There are players who are better than Pyatt, Glass, Adams, Scuderi and Orpik available to Bylsma. He REFUSES TO USE THEM

 

[joeyjake5]

Shero has given Bylsma better options than he's currently using. There are players who are better than Pyatt, Glass, Adams, Scuderi and Orpik available to Bylsma. He REFUSES TO USE THEM

I agree then RS has to fire DB. If not, then Lemieux has to come in and fire both of them.

 

[Shockmaster]

Shero has given Bylsma better options than he's currently using. There are players who are better than Pyatt, Glass, Adams, Scuderi and Orpik available to Bylsma. He REFUSES TO USE THEM

Shero is too buddy-buddy with Bylsma. He won't demand better from his coach. Those two need to be separated and ownership has to do it.

 

[UnrealMachine]

How many more games (in a row?) is Glass going start the game on the 1st line? Why does this keep happening? Why has this ever happened?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Interesting, Jaded. I do think the line up plays a part. I think I'd agree if you said it was the system more. I definitely think it plays a part.

My primary point is that we give a thousand words on Disco's head scratcher lineup decision and Gladam's man love to every one on his baffling playoff system choices, the same damn choices every year, which every coach is waiting on, without a single adjustment.

That should be reversed is my only point.

Yes, the lineup issues are important and play a role. But honestly, I think we could still do a lot better, maybe not win a cup, but could still dominate as we do in the regular season, even with a Gladams tied around our necks.

But if the other team is sitting in the neutral zone waiting for the strech pass that keeps coming that is NOT able to be overcome. Seriously, is skating the puck out of your zone that hard? How many PMDs, or even semi PMDs, have we collected over the years anyways? Letang, Niskanen, Martin, we have guys who can do it.

But if we do not adjust to other teams going all out on Crosby and Malkin, we can not overcome that either. If teams are going to leave players like Neal, Stepniak, JJ, Kunitz, hell even Sutter all alone then make changes to get them the puck and let them have unimpeded shots all day.

The adjustments are not difficult, and ones a high school coach could make.

Gladams are a problem, but nothing like the rest.

 

[blueliner18]

How many more games (in a row?) is Glass going start the game on the 1st line? Why does this keep happening? Why has this ever happened?

Completely agree here, it is as if coach DB has a mite level player reward system. Glass probably blocked 2 shots in the game vs. Columbus (and that is all he did) so Bylsma rewarded him with top line play. I mean lets face it, Tanner Glass can't score against the oppositions checking line, why on earth would anyone think he would score (or play well) on the ice versus the opponents top defensive unit while playing on the first line??? I think Tanner Glass has the heart of a lion and I like his effort, but this is the NHL not the local youth league. TG does his job well, but in my opinion that is why he still holds his 4th line wing position. If he was scoring 15-20 goals a season on the 2nd line then maybe DB would owe him a "look" on the first line, but blocking a few shots throwing a couple hits he is just doing his job as a 4th liner.

 

[blueliner18]

My primary point is that we give a thousand words on Disco's head scratcher lineup decision and Gladam's man love to every one on his baffling playoff system choices, the same damn choices every year, which every coach is waiting on, without a single adjustment.

That should be reversed is my only point.

Yes, the lineup issues are important and play a role. But honestly, I think we could still do a lot better, maybe not win a cup, but could still dominate as we do in the regular season, even with a Gladams tied around our necks.

But if the other team is sitting in the neutral zone waiting for the strech pass that keeps coming that is NOT able to be overcome. Seriously, is skating the puck out of your zone that hard? How many PMDs, or even semi PMDs, have we collected over the years anyways? Letang, Niskanen, Martin, we have guys who can do it.

But if we do not adjust to other teams going all out on Crosby and Malkin, we can not overcome that either. If teams are going to leave players like Neal, Stepniak, JJ, Kunitz, hell even Sutter all alone then make changes to get them the puck and let them have unimpeded shots all day.

The adjustments are not difficult, and ones a high school coach could make.

Gladams are a problem, but nothing like the rest.

The major problem here is...Bylsma coaches this team as if he has nothing but Glass, Adams, and Vitale "type" players or grinders. He does not teach any other style of play, dump it in, hard forecheck. Granted there is a place and time for that style, but when all of your opponents are waiting for "your game" when the playoffs start, it's time to change it up. Go with a puck possession game. Trap in the neutral zone, change it!! Obviously "your game" has not gotten the job done in the playoffs since 09 and that is when some of Therien's systems were still lingering.

 

[ColdStare]

I would like someone with more hockey smarts than me to explain the good things about Bylsma's system. I can only see the negative. Sorry for the long rant below but it's getting more and more painful watching this joke of a coach ruin the team I love while wasting Sid and Geno's prime years. Just a few negative points about Bylsma's "system":

1. My biggest indictment of the system is that it does not put any player in a position to succeed, let alone the least common denominator players. That's how I perceive a system to be good, it makes the crap players serviceable. Instead, this system expects the same thing from everyone when clearly that is an impossibility with this roster, even when fully healthy. A good example from tonight's game is the Engelland/Scuderi pairing. Two terrible puck possession and passing defensemen, yet we play the same way when they are on the ice together. Expect them to make the outlet pass with no forward help coming out of the zone. Well we saw how that turned out.

The only time this system seems to work is when the lineup is decimated with injuries (ala 2011).

2. This system does not seem to stress play in front of the net on either end. Defensively, we "front" people more than trying to body up. Players like Simmonds eat us alive because he is dominant down low.

In the offensive zone, nothing is consistently generated from behind the net to the front of net. Even on the rush, it doesn't seem like we have that center drive of years past and everyone just fans out looking for perimeter shots. This is why we don't seem to be a good comeback team this year and rely on the first goal, because we don't get many dirty ones. Simplify Dan, please.

3. Bylsma's insistence on playing inferior players over superior players, even though the former clearly do not fit his crap system (the square peg-round hole approach). Maybe we could get something out of this system if the right personnel were in place. Yet we continue to see Gladams, Pyatt, etc. in place of speedier skilled players. Which leads me to...

4. Bylsma himself does not know what kind of team he has. That is inexcusable and should be a fireable offense on its own.

I guess one positive you could say about the system is when all of our skilled players are in the lineup, we are hard to stop. On second thought, never mind, Boston proved that not to be true either...

 

[66-30-33]

I'm surprised Crosby has not got 3rd line minutes yet.

 

[tinkezione]

What is unreal is that this team could easily have a sniff at a 60-win season if we got rid of the complacency, i.e. started playing our squad from a position of strength and enforcing real accountability. This regular season, the team was very close finishing with all-time best franchise record.

 

[steveg]

My primary point is that we give a thousand words on Disco's head scratcher lineup decision and Gladam's man love to every one on his baffling playoff system choices, the same damn choices every year, which every coach is waiting on, without a single adjustment.

That should be reversed is my only point.

Yes, the lineup issues are important and play a role. But honestly, I think we could still do a lot better, maybe not win a cup, but could still dominate as we do in the regular season, even with a Gladams tied around our necks.

But if the other team is sitting in the neutral zone waiting for the strech pass that keeps coming that is NOT able to be overcome. Seriously, is skating the puck out of your zone that hard? How many PMDs, or even semi PMDs, have we collected over the years anyways? Letang, Niskanen, Martin, we have guys who can do it.

But if we do not adjust to other teams going all out on Crosby and Malkin, we can not overcome that either. If teams are going to leave players like Neal, Stepniak, JJ, Kunitz, hell even Sutter all alone then make changes to get them the puck and let them have unimpeded shots all day.

The adjustments are not difficult, and ones a high school coach could make.

Gladams are a problem, but nothing like the rest.

You make some good points, jaded. Yes, I agree with you that there are adjustments that could be made and NEED to be made, in counter to what the opposition is doing. And yes, as you say, even with the Gladams ball-and-chain weighing the lineup down, there are still things from an "adjustments" approach which could help, when teams are "on to" what we are doing. There were SOME changes last year -- I forget which series, but one of the teams we played (Isles, I think?) were really onto the "stretch pass" thing, and there was SOME adjustment made, eventually, finally -- such that the team began to skate the puck into/through the neutral zone more, and if I recall correctly it also included SHORTER passes out of the zone, instead of the long stretch passes...

BUT, it seemed like it was like "pulling teeth" for DB to finally adjust, and took several games of the team/system being exploited before the changes were finally made. Rather, this should be ROUTINE (making necessary adjustments in a series). That's a big part of what "good coaching" is -- the strategy, the x's and o's, and my opinion is that DB is simply AWFUL at this. As others have said MANY times, he stubborly sticks to the idea of "getting to our game," as if that is the end-all and be-all. He never seems to think about what it means if, and what to do when, the other team is ONTO our game...is NEUTRALIZING AND EXPLOITING "our game."

Steve