Speculation: What to do about Toby?

[Grind]

It isn't at all dishonest to state that I personally prefer d-men that are of a size that they aren't often physically manhandled to the point that they miss large portions of the past two seasons due injury. In that case that player is indeed unreliable in my view, since he apparently can't be relied upon to be on the roster when he is needed, like right now for example.

It is dishonest however to attempt to paint my position as being anything other than that. Hope that helps.

I didn't attempt o paint your post as doing anything other then what it did, which was use a word (reliable) which is hugely up to interpretation, and could easily be applied to the person you were withholding it from, while framing your like/dislike in weighted language.

IE:
I like player 1 because he has positive qualities X.
I dislike Player 2 because he has negative qualities Y.

it is not an accurate representation of either players as you have focused only on the positives of one player (the hypothetical defensmen you prefer) and the negative qualities of the other (Tobi).

that's all i'm saying.

I too would love a player that is reliable (in all senses of the word) and also does all the good things tobi does without the limitation of small stature. Unfortunately, those players are exceedingly hard to acquire.

Would you prefer a player that was "reliable" and big but less effective at things i have mentioned toby does? I guess thats the question. Size vs Effectiveness. Obviouisly Effectiveness + Size is ideal, but difficult to acquire.


and a good point by those above, Bogo has missed a far greater ration of his available games then Tobi.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I didn't attempt o paint your post as doing anything other then what it did, which was use a word (reliable) which is hugely up to interpretation, and could easily be applied to the person you were withholding it from, while framing your like/dislike in weighted language.

IE:
I like player 1 because he has positive qualities X.
I dislike Player 2 because he has negative qualities Y.

it is not an accurate representation of either players as you have focused only on the positives of one player (the hypothetical defensmen you prefer) and the negative qualities of the other (Tobi).

that's all i'm saying.

I too would love a player that is reliable (in all senses of the word) and also does all the good things tobi does without the limitation of small stature. Unfortunately, those players are exceedingly hard to acquire.

Would you prefer a player that was "reliable" and big but less effective at things i have mentioned toby does? I guess thats the question. Size vs Effectiveness. Obviouisly Effectiveness + Size is ideal, but difficult to acquire.


and a good point by those above, Bogo has missed a far greater ration of his available games then Tobi.

No, you initially argued semantics and suggested I was being dishonest in stating my own opinion. I don't throw that sort of language your way so I'm unsure of why you chose to use it with me. People with a differing opinion from your own are being intentionally dishonest? Whatever, dude.

 

[Grind]

No, you argued semantics and suggested I was being dishonest in stating my own opinion. I don't throw that sort of language your way so I'm unsure of why you chose to use it with me. Whatever.

disingenuous was the word i was looking for, I apologies.

I just take issue with people using comparatives that are weighted, pairing a positive of one player to a negative to another when that's clearly an unfair comparison.

My point being, its not as simple as 82 games played vs 64.

 

[jetsfan8]

Hell, Bogosian might not even outscore Enstrom with 20 more games played. Clearly Enstrom is on another level offensively and the difference in their defense is not nearly as great as their offense right now.

bogosian is a defenseman not a forward

enstrom is good at offense, but his role is to play defense, not forward
offensive defensemen are great, but dont compare an offensive dman to a defensive dman




byfuglien has lost us games, and won us games
enstrom has lost us games, and won us games

 

[Duke749]

bogosian is a defenseman not a forward

enstrom is good at offense, but his role is to play defense, not forward
offensive defensemen are great, but dont compare an offensive dman to a defensive dman




byfuglien has lost us games, and won us games
enstrom has lost us games, and won us games

When has Enstrom cost us games?

Bogosian is not a defensive defenseman. That's Hainsey. Bogosian is more a two way D-man. As is Enstrom.

 

[jetsfan8]

When has Enstrom cost us games?

Bogosian is not a defensive defenseman. That's Hainsey. Bogosian is more a two way D-man. As is Enstrom.

a couple times this season
(remember when he made that pass when we were on the pp, and allowed a 2-0 then he dove and allowed the goal)
hes had a few stinkers, thats for sure

his stats are not impressive aside from his point production
i know +/- is a controversial stat, but enstrom is a -8
byfuglien is a 0

im not putting much into that stat, but that means enstrom has cost us 8 more GA than byfuglien, yet everyone seems to have such a hate on for buff.




to wrap up my position, im not actually suggesting we trade enstrom, i think we should keep him

i am just saying that i would trade enstrom 100 times before i would consider dealing buff, but ideally i would like enstrom AND buff here next season, with hainsey, and some of the other dmen(not bogo) departing

 

[truck]

a couple times this season
(remember when he made that pass when we were on the pp, and allowed a 2-0 then he dove and allowed the goal)
hes had a few stinkers, thats for sure

his stats are not impressive aside from his point production
i know +/- is a controversial stat, but enstrom is a -8
byfuglien is a 0

im not putting much into that stat, but that means enstrom has cost us 8 more GA than byfuglien, yet everyone seems to have such a hate on for buff.




to wrap up my position, im not actually suggesting we trade enstrom, i think we should keep him

i am just saying that i would trade enstrom 100 times before i would consider dealing buff, but ideally i would like enstrom AND buff here next season, with hainsey, and some of the other dmen(not bogo) departing

...or Pav cost the Jets 8 more goals while Toby was on the icw than he has with Buff. That is the big flaw with +/-. Doesn't take into account goalie play.

Toby racked up most of the minus early in the year when Pav was pavthethic.

 

[blues10]

When has Enstrom cost us games?

Bogosian is not a defensive defenseman. That's Hainsey. Bogosian is more a two way D-man. As is Enstrom.

Hi recent play on 2 on 1's before he was again injured was less than stellar and arguably may have contributed to costing us some games.

It is all debateable. The fact that the debate continues 2 seasons into the pint sized rearguards arrival in Winnipeg stems from the fact that on some nights his play has been less than stellar. Yes, every player has down nights but in this market as in others the fans don't take it lightly.

Trading the little fella if he agreed to it would be a nice "cleansing" for the Jets. Out with the old and in with the new. there is a level of depth on D that the Jets don't have at forward. The team seems to play well when is isn't dressed.

 

[truck]

Hi recent play on 2 on 1's before he was again injured was less than stellar and arguably may have contributed to costing us some games.

It is all debateable. The fact that the debate continues 2 seasons into the pint sized rearguards arrival in Winnipeg stems from the fact that on some nights his play has been less than stellar. Yes, every player has down nights but in this market as in others the fans don't take it lightly.

Trading the little fella if he agreed to it would be a nice "cleansing" for the Jets. Out with the old and in with the new. there is a level of depth on D that the Jets don't have at forward. The team seems to play well when is isn't dressed.

How does a glut of 3rd pairing right handed D men. Make a top pairing left handed D man expendable?

 

[blues10]

How does a glut of 3rd pairing right handed D men. Make a top pairing left handed D man expendable?

Some would argue that he is not a top pairing. I wouldn't want him as a top pairing in a 7 game playoff series next season in the Western conference.

If some GM's want the undersized little guy on their top pairing that is great. Chevy would be able to get something good in return such as a legitimate top 6 forward.

He is a good QB on the PP and quite frankly average defensively and often pushed around in his own end especially along the boards.

He has a pretty big fan club but its base has been eroding. I will be a happy Jets fan when is no longer plies his trade down at the MTSC when not injured.

 

[allan5oh]

Why on EARTH is there this level of discussion on one of our top D men when a player like Jokenin, who takes up 4.5 mil in cap space, is going completely under the radar?

Absolutely blows my mind.

Because Jokinen has no trade value.

 

[TroubaFan1]

Keep him! His ability to make the first pass out of the d-zone, to go along with his abilty to quarterback the PP, makes him a no brainer to keep imho.

 

[allan5oh]

Enstrom + Byfuglien WOWY 2012-13

advanced stats blah blah blah

My only possible response:

 

[Grind]

I'd love a version of enstrom that was bigger, but realistically that's not obtainable without paying alot.

I still think he should be given one more year before we determine if he's an "injury risk". As stated, he's missed less time then bogo but were not writing him off, which i don't get.

I get wanting a bigger player, or one thats garaunteed to play 82 games, but how much of a downgrade would those interested in moving tobi accept in performance/effectiveness?

I know we have different preference to "playstyles" and "types" but effectiveness should really be the only thing we're conerned about.

Bottom line, industructable d men that are as effective as toby are elite and nearly impossible to acquire. Whats the threshold in loss of effectiveness vs games played that we'd find acceptable, and can we reasonably acquire it? that's really all we should be concerned with.

 

[scelaton]

I'm as big a fan of Toby as there is, and when he's in the lineup he's a fantastic hockey player. But here are 2 problems moving forward next season I see:
1) He's injured a lot
2) He's small and we're going to a tougher and more physical western conference.

Do we keep the man here and hope he stays healthy and can be effective next season out west or do we cash out while we can and maybe see if we can milk a high draft pick from someone this off season?

What do we do about Toby? Well, we don't have much choice at this point. He is damaged goods, so I doubt we will get in trade what he would have been worth in his prime.
As for being 'injury-prone', my personal belief is that he has had a single injury to his shoulder, dating back to last year, from which he never completely recovered. The hit that fractured his clavicle could have damaged his labrum and predisposed him to this year's dislocation, etc etc.
IF I am right (and this is just speculation), this is how you will know: the week after the Jets are eliminated from the playoffs, they will give him the green light to explore shoulder surgery to fix the problem. I doubt he will be 100% until well into next season, but there is a chance he could regain his old form after that. And by 'his old form', I mean top-pairing defenceman on most teams in this league. That is the best-case scenario.

 

[Snot Rocket]

You guys are hilarious. Which way is the wind blowing today?

 

[garret9]

My only possible response:

 

[Scheifele]

its clear those who've watched Toby in ATL value him more than the other WPG fans that only starting watching last year. Toby is better at offense than everyone not named Byfuglien and better at the defensive side of play more so than every single person in our top 4... at least thats how i see it.

 

[sipowicz]

Why on EARTH is there this level of discussion on one of our top D men when a player like Jokenin, who takes up 4.5 mil in cap space, is going completely under the radar?

Absolutely blows my mind.

Jokinen isn't under my radar in fact I see a huge target on his back!

Jets win more with bantam sized Enstrom OUT of the line-up, end of discussion, the guy has to go. This myth that he is a great PP QB is just that, in his tenure as that in a Jets uniform I haven't seen anything special, more like someone who makes bad reads and forces the puck at inopportune times.

The other myth that he uses great positioning to fend off forwards is just that, they swat him out of the way like a fly, when Enstrom is on the ice the Jets are pinned in their own end more often than not.

Enstrom for a top six (if were lucky), DONE in a second!

 

[SCP Guy]

I would deal either Toby or Buff to bolster our forwards for next year....don't care who that is Chevy's problem LOL

 

[Rheged]

Ya know what good teams do, deal away their best player in a position that they're weak on..

 

[sipowicz]

Ya know what good teams do, deal away their best player in a position that they're weak on..

Nobody has suggested trading Bogosian, were talking about trading our third best, physically limited often injured D man.

 

[Positive]

Why on EARTH is there this level of discussion on one of our top D men when a player like Jokenin, who takes up 4.5 mil in cap space, is going completely under the radar?

Absolutely blows my mind.

Can't do anything about Olli. Can't trade him, no point in buying him out in his contract year, etc. Not much value. So we talk about a player who has possibilities.

 

[tacogeoff]

Toby is overrated as a PP specialist and PP QB for that matter.

Toby's small stature will lead to more injuries as his career progress's, were just starting to see the beginning of a guy who will be more injured than not. Other teams have already figured out pounding on him renders him useless.

could not disagree with you more. Sure he is not the best PP QB in the league but he is the best the Jets have at the moment and oddly enough after missing more then half of the season so far he is still #8 in scoring on our team.

This season in 22 games he has 7 PP points, Buff is leading with 9 PPP in 40 games and the next closest Dman is Postama with 4 PPP in 31 games

As for last season Buff did finish ahead with 19 PPP in 66 games to Enstroms 11 PPP in 62.

The previous years with ATL he was usually #1 in PPP for D with 28ppp, 19ppp, 14ppp (2 behind big hainsey), and 26PPP


With his recent rash of injuries though I do agree that he has been rendered useless and I hope the future holds less injuries.

 

[sipowicz]

could not disagree with you more. Sure he is not the best PP QB in the league but he is the best the Jets have at the moment and oddly enough after missing more then half of the season so far he is still #8 in scoring on our team.

This season in 22 games he has 7 PP points, Buff is leading with 9 PPP in 40 games and the next closest Dman is Postama with 4 PPP in 31 games

As for last season Buff did finish ahead with 19 PPP in 66 games to Enstroms 11 PPP in 62.

The previous years with ATL he was usually #1 in PPP for D with 28ppp, 19ppp, 14ppp (2 behind big hainsey), and 26PPP


With his recent rash of injuries though I do agree that he has been rendered useless and I hope the future holds less injuries.

Where does our PP rank in the league with Enstrom as PP QB and what is our scoring percentage on the PP with Enstrom as PP QB, enough said.