What moves would you make this summer?

[Tripod]

Who is your stop gap guy, or what type of guy are you looking for as a stop gap. Nelson can move to LW and Hayes can move to RW eventually if the Flyers need them to. There's no guarantees it would come to that anyway since Patrick as anything more than a 3rd line center isn't a sure thing, and Frost could be end up being a bust for all we know. There was a time when the Flyers had Richards, Carter, Briere, and Giroux and they made it all work.

It's Fletches job to find that guy. Adding a 1-2 year guy is way different than adding a 4-5 year guy like those 2 will get. That s what I am against.

And we have Giroux, Couts, Patrick, Frost and Laughton. We can make it work too.

 

[Tripod]

Guessing they’re glad to have Bozak right now, & he’s 5 years older & worse than Hayes & Nelson.

And if we signed with of those 2, we also could be happy in year one. It's year 2-5 that's the issue that you don't seem to understand.

 

[The Madrigal]

It's Fletches job to find that guy. Adding a 1-2 year guy is way different than adding a 4-5 year guy like those 2 will get. That s what I am against.

And we have Giroux, Couts, Patrick, Frost and Laughton. We can make it work too.

Giroux is a winger at this point, much more effective there and has said he likes playing there better. Other than Couturier you have a 3rd line center, low end 3rd/high end fourth line center, and somebody who has never taken a real NHL shift. We aren't going to convince each other obviously but I just don't get why you or anyone else would be against adding a long term solution and stop waiting, hoping for young guys to develop. Time to move the rebuild forward and start trying to ice a competitive team right now. I'm not saying we need to go out and get Nelson or Hayes specifically, but if other options fall through it would be worth considering is all I'm saying.

 

[Tripod]

Giroux is a winger at this point, much more effective there and has said he likes playing there better. Other than Couturier you have a 3rd line center, low end 3rd/high end fourth line center, and somebody who has never taken a real NHL shift. We aren't going to convince each other obviously but I just don't get why you or anyone else would be against adding a long term solution and stop waiting, hoping for young guys to develop. Time to move the rebuild forward and start trying to ice a competitive team right now. I'm not saying we need to go out and get Nelson or Hayes specifically, but if other options fall through it would be worth considering is all I'm saying.

Because I believe in our #2 overall pick and our top C prospect who was just the top player in the OHL and on Team Canada.

But let's agree to disagree. Night.

 

[The Madrigal]

And if we signed with of those 2, we also could be happy in year one. It's year 2-5 that's the issue that you don't seem to understand.

They will both be 27 when free agency opens. Chances are they are still playing every bit as good or very close on the fifth year. 31 isn't exactly ancient and both have played wing before which is a less demanding position so they could move over in year four or five if need be.

 

[The Madrigal]

Because I believe in our #2 overall pick and our top C prospect who was just the top player in the OHL and on Team Canada.

But let's agree to disagree. Night.

So you want to take a blind leap of faith in Frost and hope that Patrick flips some magic switch over the next couple of years. Fair enough, but call it what it is.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

And if we signed with of those 2, we also could be happy in year one. It's year 2-5 that's the issue that you don't seem to understand.

You’re counting something that’s never happened as if it’s a guarantee for the future.

I’m counting some things that have happened as bridging us while we see if the non proven work out while the older decline.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Let's agree to disagree. I 100% don't want 5 million and term spent in Nelson or Hayes. You are ok with it.

Let's move on.

Eh, 5 million is the new 3 million.

 

[deadhead]

They will both be 27 when free agency opens. Chances are they are still playing every bit as good or very close on the fifth year. 31 isn't exactly ancient and both have played wing before which is a less demanding position so they could move over in year four or five if need be.

Actually not, neither Hayes nor Nelson are good bets to be good players in their 30s, because they're not that good in their 20s.
Nelson has been below average defensively until this season, and criticized for being soft.
Hayes has steadily improved defensively, but has 13 points in 40 playoff games.
Both had their career year in their contract year, I have more confidence in Hayes b/c he's steadily improved at both ends of the ice.

Both to me are at their peak, neither is a real 2C, and will likely not be playing center in two years.
Hayes at least could play RW, I doubt Nelson will play ahead of Lindblom or Farabee or maybe even Ratcliffe at LW.

Again, it comes down to money and term.
It's not worth taking on an overpriced contract for a player destined to be in the bottom six in two years.

 

[renberg]

Patrick is a twenty year old. Expecting him to be an above average 2C is asking too much. Without help from the officials and Bettman, Crosby at twenty was hard pressed to fill that type of role. His scoring has not been what some wanted but his overall play has been satisfactory considering his injuries and the coaching staff that he has had. Talk to me in five seasons and I think that we'll agree that, while he's not McDavid or Matthews, he will have proven overall to be the best player in that draft.
As for adding another center, it probably is a good idea. A vet with a couple of years left on a $5M per deal who could also play wing would be ideal. Then Frost can ease into the lineup over time.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Another point to be made regarding the big free agent centers. Our probable window of need is two years. If frost and Patrick (especially) are not impact players after those two years, we have a big problem for center depth. We have a wealth of wing prospects coming, including one bona fide blue chip, plus some other good potential. So they won’t block frost at center, but they may block a cost controlled winger after two or three years. The better options may be via a trade, both by way of talent and fit.

If Minnesota decides to nuke it—koivu and spurgeon are dreams for trade potential.

 

[BiggE]

The moves that I would make would probably be a lot different than the moves Fletcher is likely to make. First off, keep the 11OA pick and grab Caufield if he's still available. If not, Soderstrom or York would work. Then:

1. See if I can package Gudas, our 2019 2nd rounder and a prospect not named Farabee, Frost or Ratcliffe to get an upgrade on D

2. See it the combo of Hagg/Rubtsov or Vorobyev/a 3rd round pick can land a good, veteran center who can center the 3rd line and take some defensive pressure off of Patrick

3. See what's available in FA in the goalie market and if you think there is a better option than Talbot sign that guy to be the backup. If not, re-sign Talbot

That's pretty much all I'd do, I like our top prospects and the youth we already have. I don't want to trade Ghost or Jake and I have no interest in overpaying for a UFA. My 2019-20 lineup would be:

G-Coots-TK
Lindblom-Patrick-Jake
JVR-New 3C-Frost
Farabee or Raffl-Laughton-Hartman
spare if Farabee is in LHV: NAK

Provorov-Ghost
Sanheim-New acquisition
Morin-Myers
spare: AMac

Hart
Talbot or veteran FA

 

[Tripod]

So you want to take a blind leap of faith in Frost and hope that Patrick flips some magic switch over the next couple of years. Fair enough, but call it what it is.

It's not blind faith...it's an educated projection. It's not like I am penciling in Rubstove as a 2nd liner...that would be blind faith.

And for the 100th time, I WOULD still look for a C, but not one for 5 million for 4-5 years term.

 

[GagneHanson12]

Patrick is a twenty year old. Expecting him to be an above average 2C is asking too much. Without help from the officials and Bettman, Crosby at twenty was hard pressed to fill that type of role.

We must have a team full of ECHLers (and one AHLer in Giroux) if scoring 120 points, winning the Hart, Pearson and Art Ross is "hard pressed" to fill the 2nd line centre role.

EDIT: doing the math quickly at work that was his 19 year old season. 20 was 72 in 53 (111 point pace, good enough for 2nd in the league prorated for a full season) but my point still stands.

 

[Tripod]

You’re counting something that’s never happened as if it’s a guarantee for the future.

I’m counting some things that have happened as bridging us while we see if the non proven work out while the older decline.

Yup...Nelson has proven to average 34 ES points the last 5 years, 35 the last 2. Hayes has averaged 37 ES points the last 2 years. Laughton had 30 this year, Patrick had 29(while being MIA Oct-Jan).

You are not bridging....you are adding a core player if you are spending 5 million on a guy for 4-5 years. If we could add Hayes for 2 years at 5 million, I would do that and not have much issue with it. But having him for 4-5 doesn't make sense unless you plan on trading him or someone else within the next 2 years.

Again, agree to disagree.

 

[tucson83]

i have a different opinion, i think we have to improve the defense, i know what fletch says about young d but of course you know they lie all the time because you know they dont throw players under the bus at the media. plus just by going by flyers philosophy before hextall came to the picture and winning hockey games was improving the defense.

 

[renberg]

We must have a team full of ECHLers (and one AHLer in Giroux) if scoring 120 points, winning the Hart, Pearson and Art Ross is "hard pressed" to fill the 2nd line centre role.

EDIT: doing the math quickly at work that was his 19 year old season. 20 was 72 in 53 (111 point pace, good enough for 2nd in the league prorated for a full season) but my point still stands.

The "excellence" of Crosby was a Bettman creation. If Patrick had the luxury of being able to play and not be touched by the opposition, as Crosby was, he'd have some pretty nice numbers as well. If he had the FO of the NHL pumping him like it has, Patrick would be in the conversation for the awards show.

 

[Tripod]

i have a different opinion, i think we have to improve the defense, i know what fletch says about young d but of course you know they lie all the time because you know they dont throw players under the bus at the media. plus just by going by flyers philosophy before hextall came to the picture and winning hockey games was improving the defense.

Not a different opinion at all.

We were the 2nd worst team for GA, middle of the pack GF. We absolutely should be addressing that. Hart will help, but having a good defensive Dman for these kids to lean on and to help Hart, will do wonders. That's why a bunch of us would love to add Spurgeon and get him re-signed....rather him than Subban for example.

Hopefully the combo of Hart, Morin, and another D will help fix the GA issue. But team defense needs to be there too. The forwards need to help too. And that's also where AV comes in.

Fletch WILL be trying to upgrade us this summer. He won't go full Holmgren despite what Homer and Scott might want. Because he would have done that under their orders in Jan/Feb. Instead, he took the steady approach and moved out Lehtera, Weise, Simmonds, etc...

Let's all just sit back and watch....and then judge Fletch on what he does. Fingers crossed.

 

[deadhead]

Now even I wouldn't pretend Patrick = Crosby.

Patrick's struggles are a combination of lost time due to injury (especially summer workouts and training), lack of physical maturity (not strong enough for the style of game he should play, similar to Couts), and lack of confidence, due to inexperience and age. But at worst he should be a 35-40 ES scorer with above average defense, good luck finding a better 2C outside of Duchene. He has the entire skill package, he may not have an outstanding attribute but also lacks any glaring flaw, above average skater, shot, size, work ethic, hockey IQ.

Frost is as close to a sure thing as you'll find outside the top five. That extra year in juniors, like it did for Barzal, gives him a big edge going to the NHL, time to physically mature and polish his game. He dominated the CHL as a 19 year old, whereas the majority of top CHL scorers were 20+ years old. No one is a sure thing, but you don't get much closer than Frost.

Farabee simply did everything you'd want in his D+1 season, shined at the WJC-20, adjusted to playing against older players in college and finished his freshman year as a dominant NCAA scorer. While they might start him in the AHL, my bet is he'll make the NHL team, he's clearly more advanced than TK at the same age.

If you want to win a Cup, you have to go with young talent like these three and let them grow on the job.

Players like Ratcliffe, Rubtsov, Kase, etc. are different, they have talent, but need to polish their game, get stronger (healthier) etc.
When they're ready, you'll know, because you'll watch the Phantoms and see them look like men among boys.

Players like Bunnaman, Vorobyev, Twarynski, etc. will need time to overcome their flaws, the question will be whether they learn to compensate and become NHL players or flatline.

 

[Tripod]

^^^^ not Crosby.....but Tavares.

 

[46zone]

The moves that I would make would probably be a lot different than the moves Fletcher is likely to make. First off, keep the 11OA pick and grab Caufield if he's still available. If not, Soderstrom or York would work. Then:

1. See if I can package Gudas, our 2nd rounder and a prospect not named Farabee, Frost or Ratcliffe to get an upgrade on D

2. See it the combo of Hagg/Rubtsov or Vorobyev/a 3rd round pick can land a good, veteran center who can center the 3rd line and take some defensive pressure off of Patrick

Gudas, a 2nd rounder in 2020, and a B- prospect isn't going land you much of an upgrade from Gudas himself. I understand wanting to hold on to Farabee and Frost, but Ratcliffe should be made available if a top 4 defenseman is coming back.

Hagg, Vorobyev, and a 3rd round pick is a whole lot of nothing. Rubtsov has a had an up down development, though he was good when healthy this season, so I'm not sure how much he would be valued by other GMs.

 

[BiggE]

Gudas, a 2nd rounder in 2020, and a B- prospect isn't going land you much of an upgrade from Gudas himself. I understand wanting to hold on to Farabee and Frost, but Ratcliffe should be made available if a top 4 defenseman is coming back.

Hagg, Vorobyev, and a 3rd round pick is a whole lot of nothing. Rubtsov has a had an up down development, though he was good when healthy this season, so I'm not sure how much he would be valued by other GMs.

Yeah, I could let go of Ratcliffe for a legit top 4 guy. In regards to center, if I can't make a deal for a vet with what I'm offering then I'd bite the bullet and look for a guy I can sign to no more than 3 years in FA that can be a middle six option.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

It’s a shame Kapanen and Johnsson are both wingers. They would be ideal offer-sheet candidates and Toronto’s cap situation is tenuous enough that we wouldn’t have to really overpay. 3 x 4 million and I don’t think they can match it without destroying their cap structure. I think that’s only a second rounder comp.

Or if the flyers decide they actually think kadri would be an option and can reel him back in, threaten them with the offer-sheet or trade us kadri.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

i have a different opinion, i think we have to improve the defense, i know what fletch says about young d but of course you know they lie all the time because you know they dont throw players under the bus at the media. plus just by going by flyers philosophy before hextall came to the picture and winning hockey games was improving the defense.

A good, reliable 2-way defenseman is this team’s biggest need. 2C is the 2nd biggest need. In my opinion.

 

[TheKingPin]

Patrick is a twenty year old. Expecting him to be an above average 2C is asking too much. Without help from the officials and Bettman, Crosby at twenty was hard pressed to fill that type of role. His scoring has not been what some wanted but his overall play has been satisfactory considering his injuries and the coaching staff that he has had. Talk to me in five seasons and I think that we'll agree that, while he's not McDavid or Matthews, he will have proven overall to be the best player in that draft.
As for adding another center, it probably is a good idea. A vet with a couple of years left on a $5M per deal who could also play wing would be ideal. Then Frost can ease into the lineup over time.

Good post. Patrick shouldn’t have been relied on last year and should not till next year. He shouldn’t be relied on until he shows he can. He’s so so young that he has years left before he enters his best years. Problem is we can sit around and wait. So you may have to over pay in years or money for a 2C. It would be ideal to get one guy on 3 year deal but that’s not likely. Pull the trigger and figure out the future of that player, JVR, or Voracek later. Easily could move one for assets or to protect our better players vs Seattle.

You look at any very good teams that wins and they make big moves that improve the team. It’s never all about young players and that’s it. If it’s Hossa, Carter, Richards, Kessel. The caps didn’t add as big of pieces but they also drafted very very well and still added a 3C who was essential to their cup run. It’s no longer time to be patient or wait for things to shake out or worry about over spending.