What makes Erik Karlsson inferior to Niklas Lidstrom?

[Trade]

Lidstrom has 20 years of consistently elite 200 foot play. Karlsson doesn't have the years yet.

The year******

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Lidstrom is arguably the second greatest d man of all times.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

If EK can keep it up until his late 30s and maybe win at least 1 cup, he will be in the convo. He also has to keep piling up the Norris awards, but I'm sure he'll win at least a couple more.

He'd also have to close that mammoth of a gap in defensive ability...

 

[mashedpotato]

Lidstrom played at a time where fighting, hooking, extreme physical play was part of the on ice play.

His sense of positioning and heads up play made him appear godly during a time where the majority of players were basically troglodytes.

That's why there's a difference, Lidstrom elevated his play far beyond the playing field and while it's possible that Karlsson is a perennial norris candidate, to say he's elevated his play far beyond the field is a stretch.

PS. I think Karlsson is a great player in his own right.

 

[Micklebot]

That's only partially true. If it were a flawless argument you'd see countless other career Red Wings near him on that list.

Chelios was +351, and well over half of that was not earned with Detroit.
Fedorov was +261.
Datsyuk was +249
Zetterberg is +155
Yzerman was +148

So to say it's all reliant on the success of the team isn't necessarily accurate, because the only other player even close to Lidstrom didn't even spend half his career with Detroit. (And it was well after his prime)

Lets see what happens when we look only at games with Detroit during Lidstrom's career, and use a per game rate instead of the raw numbers;

Konstantinov +.41/gp
Federov +.31/gp
Lidstrom +.28/gp
Datsyuk +.28/gp
Chelios +.27/gp
Yzerman +.22/gp
Zetterberg +.21/gp

If we were to do it by mins played, he'd probably drop a bit more relative to the forwards.

Lidstrom was great, but his +/- was certainly a product of both his play, and being on a stacked team. Put him on the 99-00 Atlanta Thrashers, and guess what, his +/- would have terrible just like every other player on that team.

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

Everything. Karlsson is amazing, but Lidstrom was still on another level. Best dman in history and that is including Bobby O.

 

[socko]

You don't get much better defensively than Lidstrom. Although I do remember my earliest memory of Lidstrom was him getting stiff armed by Wendel Clark in his rookie year and Wendel scoring on him. Mickey Redmond said he would learn from it, and he turned out to be correct.

 

[Habs10025]

Avoiding the defenceman that played before the 1980's the best defenceman ive seen play
Potvin , Coffey , Bourque , Chelios , Leetch , Neidermayer , Pronger , Lidstrom , Karlsson , Hedman , There isn't any order to this list but #1 has to be Lidstrom or Bourque

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

Lidstrom was great, but I have to imagine Karlsson on those Detroit teams and I have a hard time not seeing him dominate to an even greater extent, which is arguably already more than Lidstrom did at his best. His consistency, health and longevity is what sets him apart from every other defenseman of this era though, and his peak play was still right there with Pronger or Karlsson.

McDavid on the 80s Oilers teams then...

You cant make that argument because equipment, nutrition, training, etc is further ahead every single season. We can only compare what they played against at the time and Lidstrom played through the dead puck era and the during the where being physical fighting, slashing, hooking, and even something as crazy as cheating on faceoffs was allowed!

Karlsson is amazing, but Lidstrom was a freak. "Generational"

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I don’t recall Bobby Orr ever playing for Detroit.

I think that's a tougher conversation than most are willing to open their minds to. Yes, Orr undoubtedly peaked higher than any other defenseman ever. That being said, I think there's a lot to be said about longevity. Obviously, what happened to Orr was out of his control, but his career was pretty much over by the time he turned 27. You don't hear a lot of people throwing Eric Lindros' name in with the greatest of all time, even though with a full career he probably would've been.

You also have to consider scoring differences in the league. If you told people Yzerman was better than Crosby by a country mile they'd lose it, and he had multiple 130+ point seasons.

Not saying Lidstrom is unequivocally better, just saying I think there's a conversation to be had.

 

[NyQuil]

Not saying Lidstrom is unequivocally better, just saying I think there's a conversation to be had.

It's a conversation consisting of the word "no".

 

[WingsMJN2965]

It's a conversation consisting of the word "no".

It's a much more rational conversation than Lidstrom vs. Karlsson, LOL.

 

[NyQuil]

It's a much more rational conversation than Lidstrom vs. Karlsson, LOL.

If you think so.

 

[Sojourn]

I think that's a tougher conversation than most are willing to open their minds to. Yes, Orr undoubtedly peaked higher than any other defenseman ever. That being said, I think there's a lot to be said about longevity. Obviously, what happened to Orr was out of his control, but his career was pretty much over by the time he turned 27. You don't hear a lot of people throwing Eric Lindros' name in with the greatest of all time, even though with a full career he probably would've been.

You also have to consider scoring differences in the league. If you told people Yzerman was better than Crosby by a country mile they'd lose it, and he had multiple 130+ point seasons.

Not saying Lidstrom is unequivocally better, just saying I think there's a conversation to be had.

The conversation for Lidstrom is with Bourque. He needs to be unquestionably above Bourque before you can start talking about someone like Orr, and he wasn’t. You could go back and forth between who was better and not get anywhere. Orr was in a different class entirely.

Sure, you can have a conversation, but I don’t think people who can compare the two objectively are going to give much weight to Lidstrom over Orr.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

The conversation for Lidstrom is with Bourque. He needs to be unquestionably above Bourque before you can start talking about someone like Orr, and he wasn’t. You could go back and forth between who was better and not go anywhere. Orr was in a different class entirely.

Or you could argue both Lidstrom and Bourque vs. Orr.

Neither Lidstrom or Orr can say that they've had their number retired by TWO teams.

 

[Sojourn]

Also, Lindros is not a good comparison. Sure, they both had abbreviated careers, but Orr’s accomplishments are light years beyond what Lindros accomplished. Lindros is one of those player’s you talk about what could have been.

With Orr you wonder what else could he have done.

 

[Sensation]

OK but he still only has 2 at this point when he wins a few more then he can be compared to Lidstrom

Also the fact that he has 2 before the age Lidstrom won his 1st probably means Lidstrom should have 10-12

OK but he still only has 2 at this point when he wins a few more then he can be compared to Lidstrom

Also the fact that he has 2 before the age Lidstrom won his 1st probably means Lidstrom should have 10-12

To your point, Karlsson could have feasibly had 5 Norris trophies at this point if history had gone a little differently as well.

- Won his first in 2011-2012 at the age of 21
- Could have won again in 2012-2013 if not for his Achilles injury; interestingly enough he finished 18th in voting that year with one 3rd place vote (he played 17 games that year)

- Voting needs to be made transparent, that is just silly​

- Won his second Norris 2014-2015 at the age of 24
- Came in second to Doughty in 2015-2016 after posting a PPG season
- Finished second once again to Burns in 2016-2017

So two Norris trophies and two second place finishes at 27. I don't think it's an egregious statement to say Karlsson could have been a 5 time Norris winner if a few things had gone differently but that's neither here nor there. Just wanted to highligh/put some context to his accomplishments at this point.

By comparison, at the same age, Lidstrom had one 2nd place Norris finish, two 6th place finishes, and one 8th place finish.

 

[Lebowski]

Karlsson is more Coffey than he is Lidstrom, in my opinion.

 

[Esq]

It is hard to imagine a current player being comparable to Lidstrom, even someone as fantastic as Karlsson.

Lidstrom was just another level above everyone else in a time period when it was a much more physical game.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Lidstrom is the biggest reason all of those teams were good.

Two really unpopular opinions on this site: 1. great players on great teams are engines, not passengers; 2. being a top notch defensive-d is every bit as game changing, if not more, than top notch offensive d. Combining both, though, is generational.

Lets see what happens when we look only at games with Detroit during Lidstrom's career, and use a per game rate instead of the raw numbers;

Konstantinov +.41/gp
Federov +.31/gp
Lidstrom +.28/gp
Datsyuk +.28/gp
Chelios +.27/gp
Yzerman +.22/gp
Zetterberg +.21/gp

If we were to do it by mins played, he'd probably drop a bit more relative to the forwards.

Lidstrom was great, but his +/- was certainly a product of both his play, and being on a stacked team. Put him on the 99-00 Atlanta Thrashers, and guess what, his +/- would have terrible just like every other player on that team.

Well, that helps show that relative to team the only guys on the stacked Red Wings ahead of him were the ones who only played during the Golden Years (especially Konstantinov and his shortened career). To do that with minutes played and quality of comp only helps show how dominant he was and how much he drove that team. Lidstrom was the constant that overlapped with all those players' eras.

 

[hyduK]

Karlsson is amazing, but Lidstrom was on another level. Simply a god defensively, his positioning and stickwork was incredible. He was a joy to watch, mostly because if he was on the ice my stress level went down 100%.

And yes, it took longer for Lidstrom to get his Norris trophies. But he also had superior competition. Borque, Coffey, Chelios, Pronger, Leetch, Blake, Neidermayer, etc....

 

[burana800]

I don't get these retired player vs currently peaking player threads. Lidström won four Stanley Cups, seven Norris Trophies and one Conn Smythe. Karlsson is not even remotely close of that. IF Karlsson keeps playing the way he plays for 20 years then it's another conversation. Likewise would have Bobby Orr played at level he did for 20 years I would consider him the greatest dman of all time. But he did not. The reason is completely irrelevant. For me Lidström is the greatest dman ever play the game.

 

[Felidae]

Well, At the moment it's Lidstrom's absurdly lengthy prime surpassed only by Bourque (Only including defenseman)


Lidstrom

Awards
7 Norris
1 Smythe

Norris finishes: 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6, 6, 8

Hart finishes: 4, 6, 8, 7, 9, 10, 12, 17, 17, 19

That's essentially a 17 year prime with at the very least being a top ten defenseman and at most being the undisputed best defenseman.



Here's where Karlsson (27) is at

Awards
2 Norris trophies

Norris finishes: 2, 2, 7, 18

Hart finishes: 5, 8, 9, 9

He has the advantage in accomplishing more than Lidstrom has from ages 18-27.

There are a few possibilities I can think of that might lead to Karlsson being considered in the same tier as Lidstrom.

His norris trophies and finishes would have to closely parallel Lidstrom, which I think is unlikely.

he'd need to have higher peaks ( Higher hart finishes ) legitemately competing for the hart on more occasions than Lidstrom did while having inferior longevity but not enough that Lidstrom's prime unambiguously has him rank ahead of Karlsson

His competition would have to be evidently superior to the majority of Lidstrom's years as a top defender while applying the above to a lesser degree.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Karlsson is amazing, but Lidstrom was on another level. Simply a god defensively, his positioning and stickwork was incredible. He was a joy to watch, mostly because if he was on the ice my stress level went down 100%.

And yes, it took longer for Lidstrom to get his Norris trophies. But he also had superior competition. Borque, Coffey, Chelios, Pronger, Leetch, Blake, Neidermayer, etc....

Also when you're on a team with Coffey and Konstantinov, it's easy to overlook the quiet Swedish kid who's not flashy but keeps making the right play. He and Murph shutting down the Legion of Doom line in '97 is when people outside Detroit really seemed to notice him.

Practically every defensive partner Lidstrom had would put up a career year alongside him. Schneider, Rafalski, even Ian White.

 

[NyQuil]

I think it'll be tough for Karlsson to put up that kind of career with the health issues he's had to date.

If he's going to be comparable, he'll have to really hit his peak now and perform as best he can in the next 5 or so years.

I agree that part of what made Lidstrom special was his ability to maintain his elite play for so long.