What makes Erik Karlsson inferior to Niklas Lidstrom?

[Bustedprospect]

Nick was first and mostly a defensive d-men early in his career. And he was really really good allready around the mid-90s. He was covering a lot for guys like Coffey and Murphy and did shutdown some star-players. Detroit were a pretty deep team as well they didnt need another offensive specialist. He did grow into that role later and started getting the Norris votes. It took a while to grow from a 50p adjusted rookie d-men to around the 75-80p d-man he later become.

I think the distance to be even close to his defensive game is to hard to make up for Karlsson. Its essentially a mountain to climb and he hasnt got to the last basecamp yet at age 27.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I'll preface this by saying I generally don't like plus/minus as a stat, and I do take into consideration that Karlsson has never been on a team as good as Detroit was during most of Lidstrom's career...

But career plus/minus...

Karlsson: -15
Lidstrom: +450

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

Almost.

Was waiting for this to be posted. Thanks, cracks me up every time

 

[McFlash97]

this:

 

[hatterson]

The mustache on Karlsson's ESPN profile picture is terrible. That alone puts him below a lot of players.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I don't understand. Erik Karlsson controls the game in such an amazing way. Granted I haven't watched lidstrom much, but Karlsson is so good at moving the puck . His skating is silky smooth as well. Lidstrom always seemed more subtle in the way he played, wasn't as flashy. I think Karlsson was better offensively. Not only that, it's so hard taking the puck from Karlsson. In a way, Karlsson greatest defense is his offense.

Lidstrom made the other guys pay for every inch on the ice

 

[TheMule93]

But career plus/minus...

Karlsson: -15
Lidstrom: +450

The only thing this tells us is that lidstrom played on much better teams than Karlsson

 

[Habs10025]

I don't understand. Erik Karlsson controls the game in such an amazing way. Granted I haven't watched lidstrom much, but Karlsson is so good at moving the puck . His skating is silky smooth as well. Lidstrom always seemed more subtle in the way he played, wasn't as flashy. I think Karlsson was better offensively. Not only that, it's so hard taking the puck from Karlsson. In a way, Karlsson greatest defense is his offense.

The difference between the two players Lidstrom had offensive ability but his real strength was his defence and ability to shut down the best players in the game making it look easy No offensive player liked going head to head against Lidstrom and that's the difference between the two players .. The best forwards know defence isn't Karlsson's greatest strength and don't hate matching up against him

 

[socko]

Boring in that he made the simplest play rather than the flashy one, yeah. But eventually it got fun watching guys trying to undress him and him just making the simple play to make them look stupid.

That and he had no standout physical skills either, not all that fast, shot was average at best. Just a smart player and boring.

 

[socko]

I remember when they used to put Lidstrom in the hardest shot competition. I felt embarrassed for him. Seems he was hitting mid 80s as I recall.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

The only thing this tells us is that lidstrom played on much better teams than Karlsson

That's only partially true. If it were a flawless argument you'd see countless other career Red Wings near him on that list.

Chelios was +351, and well over half of that was not earned with Detroit.
Fedorov was +261.
Datsyuk was +249
Zetterberg is +155
Yzerman was +148

So to say it's all reliant on the success of the team isn't necessarily accurate, because the only other player even close to Lidstrom didn't even spend half his career with Detroit. (And it was well after his prime)

 

[nbwingsfan]

Ill give that Karlsson is the better offensive D. Not by much, but definitely better.

The issue is that Lidstrom waa often the first or second best D offensively but easily the best D in the league defensively every season.

That's what makes him truly remarkable. Until Karlsson can match his defensive game I can't put him above Lidstrom.

 

[Laineux]

Lidström was consistently perfect night-in and night-out for a very long time.

There's no doubt that Karlsson is much faster, much more skilled and much more flashy than Lidström ever was, but he has a long way to go to being compared to him as a player. At his best Karlsson might be better than Lidström at his best, but let's see Karlsson maintain his best for decades before doing this comparison.

 

[JFHockey]

The Red Wings Glorious Reign survived the losses of Federov, Yzerman, Chelios, Coffey, Shanahan, etc. and the implementation of the Salary cap. It did not survive the loss of Lidstrom.

 

[District 5]

The only thing this tells us is that lidstrom played on much better teams than Karlsson

It also tells me that Lidstrom was on the ice substantially more for GF than GA...

 

[Frk It]

The only thing this tells us is that lidstrom played on much better teams than Karlsson

Lidstrom is the biggest reason all of those teams were good.

 

[nbwingsfan]

The Red Wings Glorious Reign survived the losses of Federov, Yzerman, Chelios, Coffey, Shanahan, etc. and the implementation of the Salary cap. It did not survive the loss of Lidstrom.

This is the best way I could put it too. Every single time one of the greats would retire/leave we'd hear "Is this the year the Wings miss the playoffs?"

Yet it never happened, and we even won and a cup and went to the finals sans Yzerman, Feds, Shanny, Chelios etc.

The day Lidstrom retired, or if even argue his last season when he finally lost a step, you saw a dramatic decline in the play of the Wings.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

While I agree about Lidstrom being one of, if not the biggest reason the team was successful, it was really both he and Datsyuk's departure that killed the team. Those two controlled the ice every time they were on it.

The team took several steps toward the cliff when Lidstrom left. When Datsyuk left they dove off.

 

[Sureves]

Obvious purpose of this thread is obvious, can we just lock this please? Or do we really feel the need to bash Erik Karlsson while he has started off very weak to start the year clearly out of shape and feeling the effects of his surgery recovery?

 

[socko]

The thing that always amazed me about Lidstrom was how he used his stick so effectively. It was guaranteed if you tried to take a shot and he was anywhere near around he was going to deflect the shot away from his net. And the guy knew his limitations and always played within them. You see Rielly shooting soft floaters at the goalie from the blueline, Lidstrom would never do that. He would wait for the screen and keep the puck low. Super smart player.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Obvious purpose of this thread is obvious, can we just lock this please? Or do we really feel the need to bash Erik Karlsson while he has started off very weak to start the year clearly out of shape and feeling the effects of his surgery recovery?

Yet another reason Lidstrom is superior... Durability.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The only thing this tells us is that lidstrom played on much better teams than Karlsson

Yes that is literally all it tells. Nothing else. No, not a thing. Being 8th all-time in +/- was clearly only because he lucked into being on good teams.

(hint: Wings were so good because they had the greatest d-man of all-time playing 30 minutes a night)

 

[PuckSeparator]

I think EK is a better player than Nik was at the same age, but the perception here will be skewed due to timing... Coincidence? I think not. EK also seems to have a lot of haters for some reason, but as a fan of a rival team he is a reason why I actually tune in to watch the games.

Lidstrom did play until he was past 40, and played at a very high level, so longevity might be a factor between these two when it's all said and done. If EK can keep it up until his late 30s and maybe win at least 1 cup, he will be in the convo. He also has to keep piling up the Norris awards, but I'm sure he'll win at least a couple more.

 

[Sojourn]

Yes that is literally all it tells. Nothing else. No, not a thing. Being 8th all-time in +/- was clearly only because he lucked into being on good teams.

(hint: Wings were so good because they had the greatest d-man of all-time playing 30 minutes a night)

I don’t recall Bobby Orr ever playing for Detroit.

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

I think EK is a better player than Nik was at the same age, but the perception here will be skewed due to timing... Coincidence? I think not.

Lidstrom did play until he was past 40, and played at a very high level, so longevity might be a factor between these two when it's all said and done.

For sure he his. Lidström really hit his stride in his late 20’s. Won his first Norris at 30