What least impressed you about Gretzky?

[KOVALEV10*]

Still trying to play games with the numbers I see.

Why did you include the 3 goals in 3 game sample. Why did you pick those three goals over the 3 in 17 games he scored in 72-73?

Oh? Because the numbers don't work out in your favor unless you tag that do in? Kinda thought so. Sad and predictable.

BTW, I meant goals per game. Again, I thought you would be able to connect the dots. It won't happen again.

Yeah maybe I picked the 3 in 3 because it was actually much better then in 72-73?

 

[JCD]

First off Guy was a minus ONLY 4 TIMES in his career compared to gretzky's 10.

Uh oh.

Why do I find it all to predictiable that K10 here is making up crap once again

Please point on Gretzky's 10 minus seasons:
http://www2.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/gretzky/careerstats.html

I got seven by my count. Maybe you invented the other 3 by running some more chooched equations.

Regardless, it was a meaningless point. Point was that chooch repeated 'why was Gretzky a minus player the last 10 years of his career' (well, after he stopped lying and saying he as a minus for his entire career) and yet the guy he was pimping was exactly the same.

And Lafleur was on one of the worse teams in the league in Quebec.

And those Ranger squads sure were world beaters....

In blowouts most of the time Lafleur didnt go around looking for cheap goals and assists.

I call BS here. Habs blew out there opponents by a larger margin and more often than the Oilers did. To say Lefleur didn't pad his stats in routes is a lie. He didn't pad as much as Gretzky, but that is largely due to him not scoring nearly as much as Gretzky either. I suspect that both players got roughly the same % of points in lopsided games. Since you have nothing to support your opinion, we have only the overall scoring differentials to look at. Those numbers make me highly skeptical of your claim. Especially considing your track record with numbers and claims like this.

I watched him every day and hey I know better then you I would think.

We also know your penchant for manipulating and inventing things.

I do always love the 'you should listen to me because my opinion is more valuable' defense.

And again in no way shape or form am I trying to say Guy was better then Wayne which you people are blaming me for, I'm just saying its a lot closer then people think. Especially people who think Gretzky is god or something.

Then you admit that Gretzky dominated the game on a level Guy can't touch?

 

[KariyaIsGod*]

First off Guy was a minus ONLY 4 TIMES in his career compared to gretzky's 10. And Lafleur was on one of the worse teams in the league in Quebec. In blowouts most of the time Lafleur didnt go around looking for cheap goals and assists. I watched him every day and hey I know better then you I would think.

And again in no way shape or form am I trying to say Guy was better then Wayne which you people are blaming me for, I'm just saying its a lot closer then people think. Especially people who think Gretzky is god or something.

Guy played with Quebec for 2 years. Wayne spent half of his career on bad teams...

OK, we'll take your word for it, Guy didn't go around looking for cheap goals. Well take it from people who watched Wayne all the time, neither did he...

That's the problem. It's not closer. Hell, it's probably farther. Nobody thinks he is God. Best player of all-time, but not God.

 

[JCD]

Oh and by the way what do you mean by points. Points as in team points in the standings or goals? If its team point then that really has nothing to do with goals and judging if Lafleur scored cheap goals or not.

Goals. The 'point' differential should read 'goal' differential. Habs scored far more goals, per year, than their opponents than the Oilers ever did.

I believe the Oilers best goal differential was 132 more goals scored than goals against. That is LESS than what the Habs AVERAGED during Lefleur's day.

In other words, your 'Gretzky scored meaningless goals in blow-outs and Lefleur did not' sounds like a bunch of hogwash.

 

[JCD]

Yeah maybe I picked the 3 in 3 because it was actually much better then in 72-73?

How are three goals (72-73 when he won the Cup) better than three goals (79-80 when played 3 games)?

Doesn't 3 usually equal 3 all the time? I could have sworn I read that somewhere. Please, tell me when 3 is actually greater then 3.

Or is 3 only greater than 3 when you are trying to manipulate stats to prove a farce? If you included the Cup year instead of the 3-game year, Gretzky (again) wins. If you pick top-5 seasons instead of top-6, Gretzky wins. If you pick top-7 seasons instead of top-6, Gretzky wins.

You carefully picked precisely what variable and what duration to show because that was the ONLY combination of the two that showed what you wanted to see. Any other way, it doesn't work.

That is intellectual dishonesty, cooking the books, manipulating stats or whatever other euphamism you like. In otherwords, a crock.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Goals. The 'point' differential should read 'goal' differential. Habs scored far more goals, per year, than their opponents than the Oilers ever did.

I believe the Oilers best goal differential was 132 more goals scored than goals against. That is LESS than what the Habs AVERAGED during Lefleur's day.

In other words, your 'Gretzky scored meaningless goals in blow-outs and Lefleur did not' sounds like a bunch of hogwash.

Lafleur was the one who always put the canadiens ahead then left his teammates to do the rest. He then let guys like Lambert and Tremblay and Cournoyer and Mondou and all these guys score more because it was all about him. He did his part then he let his teammates score. Look man you're with Gretzky and I'm with Guy. You're never going to agree about anything in which Guy was better or just as good as Wayne so why bother arguing?

 

[JCD]

Lafleur was the one who always put the canadiens ahead then left his teammates to do the rest. He then let guys like Lambert and Tremblay and Cournoyer and Mondou and all these guys score more because it was all about him. He did his part then he let his teammates score. Look man you're with Gretzky and I'm with Guy. You're never going to agree about anything in which Guy was better or just as good as Wayne so why bother arguing?

Again, I don't trust your word one iota. Not when the facts before me don't support your statements.

Furthermore, if you want to talk about letting your teammates score, wouldn't Gretzky's massive assist records weigh in? Nobody helped teammates to score more than Wayne did. It isn't even close, he has more assists (aka helpers; as in helping a teammate score) than anybody else does points.

Why bother arguing? No point really. Just calling somebody for being dishonest with their statistics and pointing out BS or nonsense statements. If you two would have been honest and just said you didn't like Wayne instead of inventing these bizarre and misguided attempts to discredit or diminish what he has done, this would thread would have died weeks ago.

BTW, still waiting for an answer on this one:

Then you admit that Gretzky dominated the game on a level Guy can't touch?

 

[KOVALEV10*]

You know when you said Guy's teams outscored their opponents a lot more then Gretzky's then thats false.

Here are the canadiens and the oilers total goals scored compared to the closest team's highest goal scored.

Lafleur's 6 best years (1974-75 to 1979-80)
374- 354- 20
337- 348- -17
387-323- 64
359-357- -2
337-358- 21
328-327- -1
Avg: 14 more

Gretzky's 6 best years (1981-82 to 1986-87)
417-385- 32
424- 350- 74
446- 360- 86
401-363- 38
426- 354- 72
372-318- 54
Avg: 59 more


OMG Habs outscord their opponents a lot more then the Oilers!! How true!

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Another thing Guy Lafleur was more of a winner then Wayne. In his prime Lafleur only lost one playoff series and that came vs. Buffalo in 75. Wayne on the other hand lost so many more series and was swept like 6 times when Guy was only swept once. See Lafleur actually cared about his team winning and doing well then padding his stats.

 

[norrisnick]

You know when you said Guy's teams outscored their opponents a lot more then Gretzky's then thats false.

Here are the canadiens and the oilers total goals scored compared to the closest team's highest goal scored.

Lafleur's 6 best years (1974-75 to 1979-80)
374- 354- 20
337- 348- -17
387-323- 64
359-357- -2
337-358- 21
328-327- -1
Avg: 14 more

Gretzky's 6 best years (1981-82 to 1986-87)
417-385- 32
424- 350- 74
446- 360- 86
401-363- 38
426- 354- 72
372-318- 54
Avg: 59 more


OMG Habs outscord their opponents a lot more then the Oilers!! How true!

Goal differential. Goals for - goals against.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Goal differential. Goals for - goals against.

Then just because Montreal had a much better defense and a better goalie then Edmonton, how does that mean they had more blowouts then Edmonton? That also proves that Lafleur actually had to play more defense then Wayne and with more defensive minded teammates and defensive minded coach/team strategy then Wayne's teans who realied more on offense then anything else.

 

[norrisnick]

Then just because Montreal had a much better defense and a better goalie then Edmonton, how does that mean they had more blowouts then Edmonton? That also proves that Lafleur actually had to play more defense then Wayne and with more defensive minded teammates and defensive minded coach/team strategy then Wayne's teans who realied more on offense then anything else.

Because the Habs scored more goals than their opposition to a greater extent than the Oilers did.

Here are the goal differentials for the 6 years next to each other.

Habs - Oil.
149 - 122
163 - 109
216 - 132
176 - 103
133 - 116
88 - 88

 

[JCD]

You know when you said Guy's teams outscored their opponents a lot more then Gretzky's then thats false.

Here are the canadiens and the oilers total goals scored compared to the closest team's highest goal scored.

Lafleur's 6 best years (1974-75 to 1979-80)
374- 354- 20
337- 348- -17
387-323- 64
359-357- -2
337-358- 21
328-327- -1
Avg: 14 more

Gretzky's 6 best years (1981-82 to 1986-87)
417-385- 32
424- 350- 74
446- 360- 86
401-363- 38
426- 354- 72
372-318- 54
Avg: 59 more


OMG Habs outscord their opponents a lot more then the Oilers!! How true!

Sorry, but this is more manipulated hogwash. Total BS if you will. What does the difference between the #1 scoring team and the #2 scoring team have to do with outscoring opponents.

Again, I gave you too much credit it seems. I thought you knew what outscoring an opponent meant, but it seems I am wrong.

Outscoring opponents is a pretty simple equation. You simply take the number of goals you scored and subtract the number of goals against. If the Habs scored 6 goals and allowed 2, they outscored their opponent by 4 goals. Got it now? Good. Lets move on.

Here are the Habs:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/teamseasons.php?tid=45

Between the 72-73 season and the 80-81 season, 10 seasons, the Habs scored 3383 goals and gave up 2058. A difference of 1325 goals, or 133 per season.

Goal differential by year:
Year Diff
1971-72 102
1972-73 145
1973-74 53
1974-75 149
1975-76 163
1976-77 216
1977-78 176
1978-79 133
1979-80 88
1980-81 100


Here are the Oilers:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/teamseasons.php?tid=41
Between the 79-80 season and the 87-88 season, 9 seasons, they scored 3478 goals and gave up 2753. A difference of 725 goals or 80 per season.

By year:
Year Diff
1979-80 -21
1980-81 1
1981-82 122
1982-83 109
1983-84 132
1984-85 103
1985-86 116
1986-87 88
1987-88 75

Game. Set. Match.

 

[JCD]

Another thing Guy Lafleur was more of a winner then Wayne. In his prime Lafleur only lost one playoff series and that came vs. Buffalo in 75. Wayne on the other hand lost so many more series and was swept like 6 times when Guy was only swept once. See Lafleur actually cared about his team winning and doing well then padding his stats.

Perhaps Lafleur won more play-off games because he joined a powerhouse team that had won 4 of the last 5 Cups. Tell me, what were the Oilers before Wayne joined them? A WHL squad.

You have said a lot of laughable statements in this thread, but this has to be one of the best.

Let me revise my old statement, the reason we keep this thread alive is to see what nonsense you will spew out next.

 

[JCD]

Then just because Montreal had a much better defense and a better goalie then Edmonton, how does that mean they had more blowouts then Edmonton?

If the Habs are routinely routing their opponents, averaging >1.5 more goals per game than their opponents, then by the very definition of the term they are in more blow-outs!!!

If greatly outscoring your opponents isn't the definition of a blow-out (aka route), then I dont' know what is. That the Habs outscored opponents by >50% more goals than the Oilers did is very strong evidence that they were involved in more blow-outs. Especially when that is couple with the Habs losing only 15 games per year during that span.

That also proves that Lafleur actually had to play more defense then Wayne and with more defensive minded teammates and defensive minded coach/team strategy then Wayne's teans who realied more on offense then anything else.

Um, no it doesn't. Being on a defensive team doesn't mean every player on it is defensively minded.

 

[tom_servo]

Another thing Guy Lafleur was more of a winner then Wayne. In his prime Lafleur only lost one playoff series and that came vs. Buffalo in 75. Wayne on the other hand lost so many more series and was swept like 6 times when Guy was only swept once. See Lafleur actually cared about his team winning and doing well then padding his stats.

Dude. It's a team game.

 

[JCD]

Dude. It's a team game.

You know it has got to be pretty bad when you get Mario-lovers joining Wayne-lovers in calling a Wayne-hater a crackpot.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Yeah sure here's the number of 4 goal, 5 goal and 6 or more goal games by both teams in their respective cup wins.

Montreal- Edmonton:
10 4 GOAL GAMES- 16 4 GOAL GAMES
3 5 GOAL GAMES- 11 5 GOAL GAMES
1 6 GOAL GAME- 5 6 GOAL GAMES


Wow Habs outblew there opponents a lot more then Oilers did!

 

[JCD]

Yeah sure here's the number of 4 goal, 5 goal and 6 or more goal games by both teams in their respective cup wins.

Montreal- Edmonton:
10 4 GOAL GAMES- 16 4 GOAL GAMES
3 5 GOAL GAMES- 11 5 GOAL GAMES
1 6 GOAL GAME- 5 6 GOAL GAMES


Wow Habs outblew there opponents a lot more then Oilers did!

Nice. Bet that took you a while.

Problem is, that does NOTHING to show how many BLOW-OUTs (2+ goal games) they were involved in.

Since the Oilers gave up ONE HUNDRED more goals per year (Habs averaged 206 GA; Oilers 306), that they were involved in more higher scoring affairs is to be expected.

How many times did the they outscore opponents by 2 or more goals was the issue, not how many times they scored 4+ goals. If you took the time to find that out, you might have had something. Going off your track record, perhaps you did investigate that, but it didn't say what you wanted it too, so decided to substitute this trasparent strawman instead. What you showed had as much to do with blow-outs as Chewbacca living with Ewoks [/southpark].

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Nice. Bet that took you a while.

Problem is, that does NOTHING to show how many BLOW-OUTs (2+ goal games) they were involved in.

Since the Oilers gave up ONE HUNDRED more goals per year (Habs averaged 206 GA; Oilers 306), that they were involved in more higher scoring affairs is to be expected.

How many times did the they outscore opponents by 2 or more goals was the issue, not how many times they scored 4+ goals. If you took the time to find that out, you might have had something. Going off your track record, perhaps you did investigate that, but it didn't say what you wanted it too, so decided to substitute this trasparent strawman instead. What you showed had as much to do with blow-outs as Chewbacca living with Ewoks [/southpark].

Oh so 2 goal games is a blowout more then a 4, 5 or 6 goal game?

 

[JCD]

Oh so 2 goal games is a blowout more then a 4, 5 or 6 goal game?

We have already established how clueless you are as to what a goal differential is, but are you equally clueless on what a blow-out is? That you try to use the when you are so being so obviously ignorant on a topic really doesn't help your case. It leads us to believe that you are not being willfully dishonest (or stubborn, take your pick), but really are that dim.

Lets walk through this slowly...

If you scored 5, but your opponent scored 4, that is what we here on Earth call a close game. A high scoring one, but a close game just the same. If you scored 2, but shut-out your opponent, that is a bigger blow-out than the 5-4 win. The key thing in a blow-out isn't how many goals you scored, but how many MORE goals you scored than your opponent. Saying a team scored 2, 3, 4 or even 20 goals tells you nothing about how many blow-outs they were in unless you show how many goals their opponent scored as well. Get it yet?

A 2 or more goal margin of victory is not a close game (generally speaking). 3 or more goal differential (ask your mom to explain the term goal differential if you still don't get it) is most certainly a blow-out.

Homework for tonight: find out how many times the Habs won by 3 or more (or 2 or more if you like) and compare that to the number of times the Oilers did the same. This will be a challange for you because you have to use the same objective criteria for both squads for a change.

Considering the 133 total margin of victory for the Habs versus the 80 goal total margin over opponents and their respective records, I would be shocked if the Habs didn't come out ahead.

 

[tom_servo]

You know it has got to be pretty bad when you get Mario-lovers joining Wayne-lovers in calling a Wayne-hater a crackpot.

Damn straight.

 

[JCD]

Still waiting for an answer on this one:

Then you admit that Gretzky dominated the game on a level Guy can't touch?

 

[KOVALEV10*]

We have already established how clueless you are as to what a goal differential is, but are you equally clueless on what a blow-out is? That you try to use the when you are so being so obviously ignorant on a topic really doesn't help your case. It leads us to believe that you are not being willfully dishonest (or stubborn, take your pick), but really are that dim.

Lets walk through this slowly...

If you scored 5, but your opponent scored 4, that is what we here on Earth call a close game. A high scoring one, but a close game just the same. If you scored 2, but shut-out your opponent, that is a bigger blow-out than the 5-4 win. The key thing in a blow-out isn't how many goals you scored, but how many MORE goals you scored than your opponent. Saying a team scored 2, 3, 4 or even 20 goals tells you nothing about how many blow-outs they were in unless you show how many goals their opponent scored as well. Get it yet?

A 2 or more goal margin of victory is not a close game (generally speaking). 3 or more goal differential (ask your mom to explain the term goal differential if you still don't get it) is most certainly a blow-out.

Homework for tonight: find out how many times the Habs won by 3 or more (or 2 or more if you like) and compare that to the number of times the Oilers did the same. This will be a challange for you because you have to use the same objective criteria for both squads for a change.

Considering the 133 total margin of victory for the Habs versus the 80 goal total margin over opponents and their respective records, I would be shocked if the Habs didn't come out ahead.

FOR YOUR INFORMATION PAL WHEN I SAID 4 OR 5 GOAL GAMES I MEANT LIKE THE TEAMS WINNING BY 4 GAMES (IN CASE YOU DIDNT KNOW THAT MEANS LIKE 4-0, 8-4) And guess what Oilers had far more blowouts then the habs did.

 

[KOVALEV10*]

Still waiting for an answer on this one:

Then you admit that Gretzky dominated the game on a level Guy can't touch?

Regular season, yes. Playoffs no. And in my world playoffs actually mean something rather then the regular season. Not to mention those 6 things I pointed out which happened to Guy and had those not happened they would've been a lot more close points wise then they are now. Look Dionne has 1800 points and you're telling me Lafleur wasnt 1800 point material?