What is Jake Gardiner??

[Gallagbi]

Name another #3 dman who gets 40-50 pts

Krug, Shattenkirk

 

[Tak7]

Karlsson and Burns both come to mind.

Jake Gardiner: 86 giveaways
Karlsson, with more TOI : 64 giveaways
Burns with more TOI : 106 giveaways, but nearly triple the takeaways of Gardiner.

 

[Gallagbi]

Jake Gardiner: 86 giveaways
Karlsson, with more TOI : 64 giveaways
Burns with more TOI : 106 giveaways, but nearly triple the takeaways of Gardiner.

So you want to move the goalposts?

 

[stickty111]

Jake Gardiner is apparently our best d man?
No wonder we are bad defensively.

 

[Tak7]

Truly pathetic by Gardiner on the 5th Buffalo goal.

Let's just stop with this talk of him being a top pairing guy. It's nauseating.

 

[CerebralDevil]

I have been saying this for years, Gardiner is not a smart defense man. His hockey IQ and horrid defensive play continues. For the love of Zeus PLEASE trade him Lou.

 

[Duke Silver]

Jake Gardiner: 86 giveaways
Karlsson, with more TOI : 64 giveaways
Burns with more TOI : 106 giveaways, but nearly triple the takeaways of Gardiner.

Don't use giveaway stats.

 

[DavePoulin4PM]

He’s a coach killer. He’s soft with a low IQ.. he’s not going to change. He is what he is .

 

[Tak7]

Don't use giveaway stats.

He literally gave the puck away, twice, like 7 minutes ago which leads to yet another goal for the other team, but let's ignore his giveaways?

K.

Let use: Eye Test and Common Sense.

He's not a top pairing Dman.

Give up

 

[Duke Silver]

He literally gave the puck away, twice, like 7 minutes ago which leads to yet another goal for the other team, but let's ignore his giveaways?

K.

Let use: Eye Test and Common Sense.

He's not a top pairing Dman.

Give up

Yeah.... I'm not a Jake Gardiner fan. But don't use giveaway stats. Do you know why I say that?

 

[Tak7]

Yeah.... I'm not a Jake Gardiner fan. But don't use giveaway stats. Do you know why I say that?

He's a tire fire in his own zone, and his giveaway led to yet another goal tonight.

So, no. I don't know why you say that and respectfully, I don't really care mate.

Have yourself a pleasant evening.

 

[Nithoniniel]

He's a tire fire in his own zone, and his giveaway led to yet another goal tonight.

He's uneven in his own zone, and his mistakes lead to issues for sure. But the main thing the giveaway stat tells you is who plays a lot and handles the puck a lot. Not who actually is a problem when doing so, not that I think Gardiner is.

It's a stat too dependent on ice time and attempted passes to actually be very good at measuring the only thing it tries to measure.

There are some stats that look at your error percentage, or error rate per 60. Worth pointing out that Gardiner does just fine in these too. It comes back to the same old thing, that we are talking about the most noticeable few plays of dozens attempted, while what actually matters in the end is the aggregate results of all those attempts.

 

[Tak7]

He's uneven in his own zone, and his mistakes lead to issues for sure. But the main thing the giveaway stat tells you is who plays a lot and handles the puck a lot. Not who actually is a problem when doing so, not that I think Gardiner is.

It's a stat too dependent on ice time and attempted passes to actually be very good at measuring the only thing it tries to measure.

There are some stats that look at your error percentage, or error rate per 60. Worth pointing out that Gardiner does just fine in these too. It comes back to the same old thing, that we are talking about the most noticeable few plays of dozens attempted, while what actually matters in the end is the aggregate results of all those attempts.

No.

Lots of Dmen in Gardiner's TOI range who have stronger possession numbers and less giveaways.

Stop it.

 

[Nithoniniel]

No.

Lots of Dmen in Gardiner's TOI range who have stronger possession numbers and less giveaways.

Stop it.

Stop what, having a discussion?

There are plenty of extensive research done on giveaways that point to that exact conclusion. What you said doesn't refute that. For one, I'm talking individual actions while you are talking shot metrics. Not the same. And while there are D-men who plays as much as him who have less giveaways, at large the metric has a high correlation with how much the defender handles the puck. Almost all D-men with lots of giveaways are puck-moving d-men. Almost all d-men with very few giveaways are very limited d-men who don't handle the puck. That's the main thing the stat says. If you look at who has the most giveaways since the lockout, it's all high-end d-men.

I'm not saying you are wrong about Gardiner. That the stat is bad has nothing to do with him.

 

[Tak7]

Stop what, having a discussion?

There are plenty of extensive research done on giveaways that point to that exact conclusion. What you said doesn't refute that. For one, I'm talking individual actions while you are talking shot metrics. Not the same. And while there are D-men who plays as much as him who have less giveaways, at large the metric has a high correlation with how much the defender handles the puck.

I'm not saying you are wrong about Gardiner. That the stat is bad has nothing to do with him.

Ok.

Enjoy the rest of your evening.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Well, for anyone reading, here's the list of the defenders with the most giveaways since the lockout:

Brent Burns
Zdeno Chara
Drew Doughty
Erik Karlsson
Andrei Markov
Mike Green
Brent Seabrook
Dion Phaneuf
Duncan Keith
Keith Yandle
PK Subban

Here's a list of defenders with the least amount of giveaways since the lockout, having played a similar amount of games to the above:

Stephane Robidas
Tim Gleason
Marc Methot
Roman Polak
Dennis Seidenberg
Alex Pietrangelo (Quite the outlier, very cool)
Jan Hejda
Fedor Tyutin
Anton Strålman
Zbynek Michalek
Mark Stuart
Scott Hannan

If you pick a random top giveaway defender during these years, you have an 11/11 chance of picking an all-star. It's not a good stat. Giveaways are bad. Defenders who make egregious giveaways are worse. The giveaway stat doesn't identify these.

 

[hotpaws]

Jake should find a partner and take up ice dancing.

 

[MattySnipes]

An Enigma wrapped in a mystery.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

He’ll be a beast in the playoffs again.

 

[Zybalto]

He was good tonight despite what some would say. Really drove possession well.

 

[Stephen]

Gardiner's stick looks like it's too long for him.

Picture a classic puck carrying defenseman like Orr, Keith, Bourque, or even a Rielly, Kaberle or Krug who like short little sticks to control the puck with precision through traffic. They're motoring along, kind of in a hunched stance, bearing on top of the pick and carrying the puck close to the body. Think speed, straight lines, an ability to navigate in close, make a decision in a split second, distribute the puck. Top arm is often tucked in close.

Contrast that with Gardiner who has that long stick, carrying the puck casually poking it along, pivoting weirdly, facing the play obliquely. The top arm is always up at an odd 90 degree angle way away from the body. It's like he's too soft to solidly be in any position, he's never really centered and his stick puts the puck too far from his body.

 

[Duke Silver]

He's a tire fire in his own zone, and his giveaway led to yet another goal tonight.

So, no. I don't know why you say that and respectfully, I don't really care mate.

Have yourself a pleasant evening.

The fact that he had an obvious giveaway tonight does not mean the stats you were using are in any way useful in comparing players across multiple teams. I'm not saying giveaways don't exist. I'm saying they're not measured accurately.

What constitutes a hit, blocked shot, giveaway or takeaway in one arena is completely different from another arena, since these are tracked by different statskeepers in each building. There's no standardization across these statskeepers for what should and should not be labelled a giveaway. So the numbers you were using are completely non-comparable.

 

[Zybalto]

The fact that he had an obvious giveaway tonight does not mean the stats you were using are in any way useful in comparing players across multiple teams. I'm not saying giveaways don't exist. I'm saying they're not measured accurately.

What constitutes a hit, blocked shot, giveaway or takeaway in one arena is completely different from another arena, since these are tracked by different statskeepers in each building. There's no standardization across these statskeepers for what should and should not be labelled a giveaway. So the numbers you were using are completely non-comparable.

Yea, Im pretty sure Toronto is known for handing out higher giveaway/takeaway numbers.

 

[Tak7]

The fact that he had an obvious giveaway tonight does not mean the stats you were using are in any way useful in comparing players across multiple teams. I'm not saying giveaways don't exist. I'm saying they're not measured accurately.

What constitutes a hit, blocked shot, giveaway or takeaway in one arena is completely different from another arena, since these are tracked by different statskeepers in each building. There's no standardization across these statskeepers for what should and should not be labelled a giveaway. So the numbers you were using are completely non-comparable.

He gives the puck away too much.

That's not really debatable, regardless of how a specific stat is viewed.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Trade bait